Training not to be rude?
  • KajaKaja
    Posts: 216
    Hey guys! Alright, so Kaja has -plenty- of socialization with other dogs. But I can see she's a little rude. In order to instigate play she will bump her butt, nip their feet or their backs, pounce, etc... and get in to another dog's personal space without respecting the warnings to back off. Right now I just pull her away or distract her with other things, but I'm wondering if I should be doing other exercises to make her more polite? She gets a lot of socialization but I feel isn't picking up the cues very well. Or just plain ignores them.

    I get this can be a common shikoku thing, judging by other posts I've read, but I want to help her if I can. Thoughts and advice?

    Post edited by Kaja at 2015-04-30 01:37:41
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5510
    Welcome to Shikoku [ and to a good degree, kishu ] ownership. ;)

    These are rude dogs, genetically what they've been bred for forever. It's just their play-style. You can try to correct it, out train it, or reform it, but ultimately, it's their "default" behavior. ~
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5510
    Oh and the behavior you describe is exactly why Shikoku & Kishu [ and the other NK, I am sure, to an extent depending on breed / individual pup ] are hard to integrate with other dogs, depending on breed. Even if other dogs play rough and tumble, ultimately the medium NK in particular, are especially *rude* as far as dog standards go. So even when you get an uber-social, not reactive / aggressive NK, their playstyle alone [ without meaning to ] will come off as asshole-like to other dogs. ~
  • KajaKaja
    Posts: 216
    Yeah! ROFL I know exactly what you mean... I was prepared for it before I decided to get a shikoku, hehe. Aside from instigating a bit rudely, I feel fortunate that she plays so nicely with dogs. She tends to adjust her roughness to their comfort level. The in-your-space thing isn't usually a problem except for when we are visiting other people's homes and they have dogs, or if she is at doggy day care. In both instances she gets redirected.

    So I do feel it's my responsibility to train some politeness in to her so she continues to get along well with the other dogs she meets... you know? :>
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    In order to instigate play she will bump her butt, nip their feet or their backs, pounce, etc... and get in to another dog's personal space without respecting the warnings to back off.

    That's not just a Shikoku thing, this is how ALL Nihon Ken initiate play lol. The main difference being how long the play bowing lasts before the butt bumping starts. Butt bumps are actually a very polite invitation to play and I have yet to see a dog take it as invoking conflict, even space sensitive dogs (they tend to growl and raise a lip, which is somewhat low on the intensity scale vs snapping). You're right though that it seems Shikoku and Shiba are high on the "let's poke fun and see what happens" scale.

    I'd leave this answer up to @Crimson02 and the other Shikoku owners though, as I don't think many other breed owners have had to handle this issue. I'm hoping to learn some things from this thread too.
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
  • jigzzorjigzzor
    Posts: 125
    It's just katsu's playstyle, best we've done so far is to have him listen to us when he does something too rude and make him stop or get off. He also tries to initiate humping sessions all the time.

    Absolutely make sure that she can listen to you when you want her to, otherwise she may accidentally provoke older dogs into a fight even when it's not her intention. Socialize her with as many different breeds of dogs out there, big, small, medium etc. She will pick up on certain cues eventually to avoid. Just monitor the play and time her out or in our case we take him away all together when you think she does something wrong.

    Katsu is gentle with small dogs, he is in your face with most medium sized dogs, and large dogs he tends to be submissive to. It will take an enormous amount of time to train her. We're still just getting katsu's socialization habits and fine tuning them but from my estimate he won't be the best social dog in the world ever.

    I feel like training a Shikoku you need to be very tedious and make large and concise statements for them to get what you want them to do. Like big happy responses when they do something right.
  • KajaKaja
    Posts: 216
    Yeah! It definitely seems like a Japanese breed 'thing'. They like to test the limits, haha. Adorabolical.

    She takes to training very well: so my question then, would be this... Redirecting her OR letting the other dog enforce the boundaries, which would be the best? Just a healthy mix of both and reinforcing it when she steps away?

    And Kaja is giving me a dirty look as I type this.

    Post edited by Kaja at 2015-04-30 09:17:05
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3386
    To be honest, the way I've dealt with Rakka's rudeness is to only let her play with dogs that have an extremely thick skin.
    Dogs: Rakka (shikoku), Sosuke (kai), Effie (bc/kelpie)
    Cats: Hester, Batgirl, Stephanie, Harley
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 2215
    +1 to Heidi. Asking a Shikoku to "play nice" I imagine is like asking a Spartan to "play fight".

    To caveat, there are some people whose Shikoku have an inherently soft disposition and handicapping themselves well to other dogs (Chaoji comes to mind), but I imagine it's to a small subset of dogs and not to most dogs in general.
    Jesse Pelayo

    Post edited by CrimsonO2 at 2015-04-30 19:29:46
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3977
    LoL, I was about to say the same thing as Heidi. Finding playmates that don't mind rudeness and aren't fazed by heavy corrections by the Shikoku. My huskies play well with my Shikoku since they love rough play and, being a breed that was developed to work closely with several other dogs, they are very tolerant of rude behavior. Sometimes my Shikoku will get snarky if she doesn't like something the huskies do, so they take and wait for her to stop before initiating play again.
  • emi802emi802
    Posts: 296
    @CrimsonO2 bahahaha. Asking spartans to play fight. That's a great way to put it.

    I have to agree. That's just how Shikoku are. In Katsu's case, I won't even let him play with a dog if it doesn't seem like they can't handle his shenanigans. He (like most other Shikoku, I guess) has various levels of intensity. When he hits a point that's too much for the other dog, I time him out for a bit to let the other dog take a break. Then they resume. He usually takes it down a notch or I repeat timing him out. If it seems too much for the other dog, I'll just take him and leave if I can't redirect him to another dog or myself. As for letting the other dog correct him, I do it on a case by case basis. If they seem gentle / tolerant enough, I leave them be.

    Like jiggz said, I've noticed he's gentler with smaller dogs now because he's kind of learned that they're quicker to get snappy. He just touches them a little less but makes more barking noises to get them to do something. I suspect he likes to annoy the small ones to get them to chase him while he prefers wrestling or being the chaser with dogs closer to his size (or larger). I suppose it really is about picking the right playmates.

    To clarify though, I don't ever expect his behavior to change. I wouldn't want it to anyways. I love his fiesty nature. :)
  • KajaKaja
    Posts: 216
    Alright! Haha. Seems majority rule is it's just their nature. I know socializing helps a lot in all breeds, but I'll just make sure to watch the other dogs' body language to make sure nothing ever gets out of hand. If we can train the pukoku out of the shikoku, I'm sure constant vigilance might give them a bit of manners, too, though. Not a ton, but a semblance of something resembling it? Haha! Might just have to rely on interruption recall, though. She's great most of the time, don't get me wrong, it's just mostly at other dogs' homes and doggy day care. I don't know if you guys are aware, but her doggy daycare is the type where they spend every moment, even bed time, with the other dogs. And that's the main avenue where we noticed she can be a bit pushy and rude. It will be interesting to see how that place effects her as she grows up! Dogs get screened before they're allowed in though, so they are all very friendly. xD

    We've only ever had ONE altercation with a dog, and it was my brother's old very undersocialized (as in he got it when he was 15, never trained it, and it never leaves the house) bichon. When we visit, Kaja still tries to play with him and it never ends well. Both me and her have gotten bloodied up a bit, and his bichon is now walking a thin line. I just have to keep them separated and I try to not let her socialize with him at all. Don't want her picking up bad manners (lawl).

    Love the spartan analogy, rofl.

    Also, Kaja loves it when we see other NK. They have such similar playstyles! She gets along great with most dogs, but really well with shibas and (weirdly) beagles. I like to make fox and hound references. Our next dog will probably be either a corgi or a NK, now, hah.
    Post edited by Kaja at 2015-04-30 22:59:38
  • roninshibaroninshiba
    Posts: 63
    Kaja's "rudeness" may ease up a bit as she get older and she learns what most dogs accept and don't accept. Kiyomi has changed a bit since she was a little pup. She was a terror when she was a younger pup, but she has also learned to ignore dogs that she doesn't get along with. It's been a gradual process, but the progress is visible. I still take her to the local dog park a couple of times a week. She knows most of the dogs and she can run around until she's had enough. She knows who will play with her and who to ignore. She is good with greeting most dogs now whereas this was a 50/50 chance when she was younger. I don't expect her to be the loveable, playful golden type, but that's okay. We pretty much knew what were in for when we brought Kiyomi home and we couldn't be happier with her.

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