Comparison of WSLaika & Kishu for home life and hunting
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    I've been somewhat following Brad and others experiences hunting and hiking with their dogs. It's really cool and I think Ren, with some training, would enjoy flushing small game such as pheasants, quail, other ground nesting birds, and small mammals. She loves the chase but loses interest when whatever it is she's chasing has stopped. At least for objects and toads anyways, which are the only things she's actually "caught". I reckon that hog or anything larger would be a poor fit for her.

    I've been wanting to get into hog hunting for a while, but definitely won't be ready to involve a dog for several years. In the mean time it's been mostly just occasional reading and seeing what other people are up to.

    To come to the point of the post, I've narrowed my interests to Laika, Kishu, and Karelian Bear Dogs. With Laika and Kishu being the mains and KBD being a "I've heard interesting things, but I don't really know much about them".

    How would you Laika and Kishu owners describe your dogs, their hunting/hike styles (short/mid/long ranging, their tactics, etc), and how do they do at home? What would you consider a good home environment for them a yard + a few hunts per year or what sort of exercise/lifestyle would you recommend?
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 3209
    cant answer your questions, but you know about the Laika Forum, too, right?
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    Like what Wryly said, you may want to also pose your question on the Laika Forum: http://www.laikaforum.org/forum/

    There are tons of laika people on there who can help you with the laika aspect, but Brad is the only person I know who owns both a laika and kishu.
    image
    Post edited by Calia at 2013-04-10 08:28:33
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    @WrylyBrindle @Calia Ah very cool! I didn't know about that forum and will definitely ask there :) I'm not really looking for a complete perspective of having to have both. I'm pretty sure Brad is the only person, in the US at least, with both Laika and Kishu. Thoughts on either one are cool. Dragoon is the only Kishu I've ever met and she isn't doing much hunting, besides hunting the other dogs lol.
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
    Post edited by cezieg at 2013-04-10 09:36:29
  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 3209
    I think laiki are more available, and more affordable and possibly healthier overall- but I dont know anything about hunting with either. Good luck! :)
  • ZinjaZinja
    Posts: 1033
    There are a lot of hunters that cross the laika and kbd. I'm not sure the purpose of the dogs do very well.

    I really like the laika, maybe it's because they look similar to shikokus.
    -Joe
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    I haven't had the opportunity to hunt with a Laika but IMHO, if you're looking for a great hog dog you can't go wrong with a Kishu from good hunting lines. For some reason two of the pups from my first litter have allergy issues but that doesn't mean that's how all kishus are. Out of all the NK, kishus probably have the least health issues.

    I like the Kishu because they are close to mid range hunters, they are great family dogs, not too hard to train to hunt, you don't need a big pack (1 good dog will do the job), and not too hard to own. Because they are hunting dogs, they do need a good amount of dedicated exercise.

    If your state allows year round hog hunting you need to hunt with your dog year round. The more hogs they hunt, the better they get. I'm guessing the Laika are more of a multi specie hunting dog so if you're looking for a dog that specializes in hogs the Kishu or any of the American hog dogs might be a better fit. Although I have seen some vids on Laika and they look like great hog hunting dogs.

    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    I agree with @shishiinu, if hunting hog is your number one goal then a Kishu is probably a safer choice. Also, Kishu are quieter and are lower energy when not out hunting.

    In my experience hunting with Gen and Shigeru, and with Kishin, Kishu dont range too far *most* of the time, but they aren't stellar when it comes to recall... So, if they do range, it can be harder to get them back then a Laika IMHO.

    Kishu can be used for other game too, but if you want a breed that is good for all types of game, a Laika is the way to go. Their versatility is hard to beat when it comes to hunting spitz.

    Laika are WAY more biddable than Kishu IMHO. But Kishu are not as soft a Laiki are... So it's a tradeoff.

    The one main difference between the dogs is "gameness". The Kishu is a "game" dog, Laika are far less "game". This means a Laika who wants to start a fight with other dogs, or who is fighting with a wild animal, can more easily be controlled than a Kishu, who can be VERY hard to "call off" under those circumstances.

    I hope this helps.
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2013-04-10 15:26:34
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    Hit the nail right on the head. Great info on the Laika, man maybe we need some laikishu pups... Jk.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5510
    I'd take a lakikishu pup!

    I'm not sure how good the Goon-demon would be at hunting. I could see her chasing a LOT of trash, and her recall sucks. Also, she doesn't range close at all when she does go off-leash. She's a little too smart. You call her, she looks at you & you can see the cogs turning in her head..."Either I can go get that food, OR, I can keep walking to get to this awesome smell! ....hmm....SMELL!!!" & she takes off.

    But, she does have over-the-top prey drive & that "not back down" instinct. She can be a total bitch with the other dogs tho even tho each dutchie is at least twice her weight she is constantly hurting them.

    But, I think her prey drive might be too much at times. For example, if Fate is digging, she chases / fixates on the dirt, trying to catch it. Then, a bird will fly over head, & she'll start chasing that, [ even tho the bird is 500ft in the air ] halfway through that, a bug goes by & she switches gears and won't leave it alone no matter what.

    She's kind of ADD mixed with OCD. LOL I think if we actually tried to hunt with her, she'd lead us all around the forest looking for random crap.

    She's also very hard, as a rule. Loud sounds, yelling, other dogs nipping her, etc. doesn't bother her. Which is a blessing and a curse at the same time, as it can be hard to get her to back off.

    She's a good pup tho. Just wish she wasn't such a picky pooper!!! lol [ & that she was more friendly with strangers, she's come a long way tho ] ~
  • thegelathegela
    Posts: 350
    This thread is interesting because I've been thinking of getting into hunting one day as well. Apparently there are a lot of wild boar in Alberta, so if we move there then that would be something to think about it. In Ontario there are only small game and moose, deer and coyote hunting I think. I've always wondered tho what it's like to hunt with a Hokkaido :)
    Hana - 2yr (10-22-11)/ F / Kai Ken / shy, sweet, cuddly, silly, loves the woods
    Yezo - 6mo (07-11-13) / M / Hokkaido / foodie, monster, lovebug, loves winter
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  • ttddinhttddinh
    Posts: 1990
    I don't have a Kishu but I could tell you how it was living with Kilbe! Initiallly, Kilbe was supposed to be the hub's dog and he was going to start hunting with her, however, due to personal reasons, had to put in more hours so he didn't have the time and money to start hunting. Kilbe had a very high prey drive though. For example, there were empty rabbits in the lot next door and she scratched her side really bad (needed stitches) to get to them by trying to squeeze through the chain link. She treed lizards (lol), squirrels, etc. She never ran away too far, before I got her back, but I know she probably would. Kilbe was EXTREMELY vocal and her whining, barking and howling was crazy. Especially if I took the other dogs somewhere without her. Though, she never busted through any screen windows, she did go through the screen door. Since I don't hunt, I took on hikes and long walks to try and get rid of her energy. She loved the neighbor's dog and dug a hole under the chain link to get to him (he's neutered) to play.

    I got Kilbe when she was four months old. She was "wild" to say the least. She didn't get along with Kaiju and Bea so it was a lot of separation management. However, there were times that they got along. Kilbe has a tendency to try to "avoid" fighting, but will not back down either. In an argument, it was always easier to distract her from it than the others.

    I don't know if you plan on starting a family but Kilbe LOVES kids. She LOVED and doted upon every single one of my nieces and nephews. She was extremely biddable. She was a great house dog and not just a hunting dog. If Bea was so crazy, I would have still kept her!
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    Thanks for the replies guys!
    @shishiinu Yeah Dragoon as some allergies going on too, so does my friends very white husky. Generally I see tons of white dogs with allergy issues. I'd even say a good 80% of the allergy dogs I saw as a vet tech were white dogs. Although they were mostly inbred wreckages like Bischons. I do think there's something about white coats that make them more susceptible to allergies though. For some reason I always waffled around on getting my hunting license, but it's a requirement for falconry so I'm getting one this year. That plus reading (Shigeru's blog?) the NK blog about shotgun hunting boar with his Kishu got me motivated to get off my butt and actually get things lined up this year to be able to go with my uncle this year for hog. Short-mid range is generally what I'd be wanting in a hunting dog. Both for mutual protection as well as teamwork.

    @brada1878 Really interesting to hear the differences in the two! Hmm would you say Kishu are a bit more Shiba'ish when it comes to recall, where they'll check out what they want and then come back? When it comes to hunting having a more "game" dog seems like it'd be preferable. Especially for baying hogs. I've given up on dog parks anyways lol. Ren just likes to watch and Tsune was too prone to getting pissed when other dogs would "try" him by getting in his space and bumping him.
    To be honest I'm not really sure what else there is to hunt with dogs, except bear which I don't intend to hunt. Do you think a Kishu that's used to hunting hog would be flexible enough to learn to go after lions?

    @Sangmort I too would take a Laikishu LOL. Also I'm glad she's not that hot on strangers, so I can be all smug that she likes me haha :D

    @thegela Hmm I wonder if people do any hunting with Hokkaido. They seem like a nice middle ground breed between Kai and Shiba. Alberta's beautiful, you should definitely move there! I'm waiting on my dad's proof of Canadian citizenship papers (since he misplaced his) so that I can send away for my own. I have cousins in Squamish (35-45mins north of Vancouver, BC and the inland wilds are pretty similar since the provinces are right next to eachother. Hoping to take a semester of college up there if possible and do some hiking, hunting, and fishing.

    @ttdinh Haha Kilbe sounds pretty energetic! Similar to Tsune who had to be run for 3miles every other day at the least or he'd get crazy and not know what to do with all of his energy. I do plan on starting a family some time after I'm done with my bachelor degree (2-3 years) so that's definitely something to consider that I hadn't been weighing that heavily until you mentioned it! I do see everyone else's Kishus as being good with their kids.

    Would you guys say Kishu are good family dogs?
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
    Post edited by cezieg at 2013-04-11 17:52:40
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    Yeah Dragoon as some allergies going on too...


    @cezieg - Not sure if you realized but Dragoon is one of the pups shishiinu is referring to since he produced her.
    image
    Post edited by Calia at 2013-04-11 20:51:10
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    @cezieg - Gen ( @shishiinu ) has stories of his Kishu treeing Lion... So for sure they could work for that. Also, in Japan the Kishu is the NK breed most commonly used for hunting bear now (but that's not to imply that many people still hunt bear in Japan). So, yes, Kishiu are versatile large game hunters, I am just not sure they would work for small game the way a Laika does. I could be wrong on that tho.

    As for recall, to be honest, Kishin has the worst recall of any dog I've owned. Worse than my Shiba. But, he's still a young jerk, so maybe he will have better recall (I keep working with him on it) as he becomes a more mature jerk.

    Now, about "gameness"... I'm not sure it's required to hunt boar, or even generally preferred. I think it depends on the hunters preference and hunting style. There are basically three common ways to to hunt boar with dogs: Bay, Catch, and a mixture of both...

    For catch work, gameness is needed, as is a lot of "fight". The dog has to be game enough to take massive abuse from an animal and still stay in the fight. This is why game pitbulls and other fighting breeds, like the dogo, make great catch dogs.

    For bay work, the dog is not required to catch the boar. It may bite the boar, to get keep it distracted, but it is not expected to bite and hold the boar. This is how Kai hunt, and this is how Laika hunt.

    Now, for the third... This is where the Kishu is special. They catch and bay boar. So that is why they need "gameness" as they often will catch as well as bay a boar. Another mix is where you employee bay dogs, like Laika, with a catch dog, like a dogo. The Laika track and bay the boar, then you release the catch dog to go in for the final catch.

    Catch work is very dangerous.

    Here a few examples of the different styles of Kishu and Laiki hunting boar...

    Laika



    Kishu

    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2013-04-12 13:16:03
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    Laikas are interesting to say. The strong-point of the West Siberian Laika is that they are insanely popular in eastern Europe and there are blood-lines for every area of work. The downside is trying find a good line to import.

    In United States and Canada, the market-demand for Laikas is in small-game animals-- particularly fur-bearing animals. The problem? The current hunting trend in Europe is boar-hunting. The other problem? Americans prefer catch-dogs for boar-work. It is easy to find a dog with titles on boars for import, but it is harder to find other blood-lines available for export. People want to keep good dogs to themselves, you know?

    However, I am happy with my Laika. He finds animals for me and I just walk to where he barks. I will admit Laikas are very quick to react in defending themselves, but he has very easy to manage in dog-conflicts since he never gets into a fight without an obvious reason. Once separated, he cools down immediately within 10 seconds and forgets. I can't say the same with the other breeds I have had where the body language is harder to read.

    The gameness is why I shyed away fro Dogo Argentino and Airedale Terrier. However, the lack of common sense (or "woods-wise") is why I shyed away from scenthounds. On paper, Laika seems to be a good compromise. However, I still have to see how he takes to the gun this spring or this fall.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2013-04-12 12:43:32
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    @brada1878 Yeah if I remember Kishin is usually on leash when you hike right? I think that's more of an individual thing vs a breed thing. Considering Tsune was the worst Shiba/dog off leash I've ever seen, yet Saya and Conker are the model of a great off leash Shiba.

    That was really interesting to see the difference in them. Thanks for that! The Laika baying vs the Kishu going for takedowns. It does seem pretty dangerous, especially that one Kishu who grabbed the boar by the head and was pulling it down, but it's neck was across the boar's muzzle, seemed like it was asking to be gored heh. What would you personally choose if you had to select down to a single dog to go hunting with?

    @souggy Yeah I hear you on it being hard to find a blood-line to import. It's usually difficult enough to get a specific, well-bred, uncommon breed dog just in North America. What species do you hunt with him?
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    It is not so difficult to find a good kennel. The problem is trying to find one who willing to do the paperworks necessary for export-- especially since most kennels don't want to hold puppies longer than 8-12 weeks.

    Well, the only games I am allowed to hunt around these parts with dogs are groundhogs, upland birds, water-fowls, predators and invasive species. I would buy a trap-line to legally shoot fur-bearers with the dog, but it seems like all the recreational hunters are driving up the resale price beyond what is economically feasible, just so someone can hunt a deer or moose from a cabin using trapper's rights.

    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2013-04-13 17:57:18
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    @cezieg - I'd probably choose a Laika if I only wanted one dog to hunt anything. Maybe a Kai too... But, I have really only hunted with other people's Kishu and my Laika. So I'm sure that makes my opinion biased.
  • Mike283Mike283
    Posts: 149
    @brada1878 watching @Shishiinu 's Taro, he was pretty good off leash so hopefully kishin will get there with age.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    Hope so @Mike283! I that will be the case too. He's in his "punk" age now.
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    @brada1878 Yeah you're probly right. It'd be much easier to have a dog that's good for small game flushing for whatever raptor I have at that point in the future, then when not in raptor hunting season we could go for hog.

    @souggy Haha also a valid point. The paperwork can be a huge headache. I've gone through it several times with clients for just the vet side of the paperwork. That alone was a pain in some cases, especially France for some reason. I've never looked into purchasing a trap line, they have special trap-line specific exceptions that are more beneficial than just buying a season license right?
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    @cezieg - If flushing is all you need (not treeing) a Kishu would probably work fine. It's not like they are not interested in small critters, they just don't tree the way a Laiki would. Hell, Ren would flush small critters from brush for you!
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    @brada1878 Haha very true! She has an awesome prey drive. It wouldn't be too hard to train her for it either. The hogs would scare her for sure though! Hogs don't get tree'd either lol. No mountain lions around here too. I think I'll just have to meet some Kishu and Laika :)
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
  • sjp051993sjp051993
    Posts: 1605
    Ren has her mommas prey drive. Tora will hunt anything.
    Stacey living with Tora, Kazue, Ritsu and Kuma the Shiba
    www.suteishiikennels.com

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  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    I dunno Brad, my pack does a great job treeing bobcats and other critters. Riki was a treeing machine. Kishus can be great small game dogs also but their specialty is dealing with nasty hogs.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    @shishiinu - Do they look up and bark at squirrels in trees, Gen?
  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    Posts: 1175
    Not a Kishu, but my shikoku definitely tree squirrels and keep looking up and jumping up at the base of the tree. They don't bark though, but definitely look up and watch the squirrel.
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1559
    Baron trees monkeys like nobody's business lol
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3006
    Treeing monkeys I bet the monkeys don't like that. haha

    Saya has treed squirrel three times once in snow and rest in spring.

    She was able to hold them on the tree the two times, but third she treed it in the woods so it was able to get to it's nest. Saya came back from the woods and we headed for rest of our walk.

    Saya did bark and whine at the squirrel she sounded mad at the squirrels like hey get heck down from there..

    I never trained her to tree or anything guess it comes natural. I do have couple squirrel pelts I use for flirt toy and one for fetching.

    not sure on any info on kishu or laika good luck on your research.
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    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    I don't know about squirrels case the only ones we have out here are ground squirrels. The dogs will bark looking down into holes lol.i wouldn't see why they wouldn't bark at tree squirrels though.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    Haru is a great treeing dogs, she trees squirrel and barks at them. Cho Cho would do that too. But I have not seen Kishin do it, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't.

    None of my NK airscent squirrel in trees the way my Laiki do, tho. Laika are small game dogs first, and large game dogs second. Their small game tracking ability is pretty impressive.
  • Mike283Mike283
    Posts: 149
    My kai trees cats and will bark at them once he knows they can't go anywhere but down.
  • My Kai caught a baby rabbit recently. He didn't know what to do with it until he saw the other dogs wanted to eat it. So he ate it, but only because if he hadn't the other dogs would have. He's not showing a lot of interest in hunting!

    More related to this topic, though, I've been wondering about the three hunting styles Brad mentioned above. So baying is holding the animal til the hunter can dispatch it. Catch actually engages the animal, and the Kishu hunting is catch and bay (is there a name for that?) What I'm wondering about is how bear were hunted with NKs in Japan. I would guess that was a bay style hunting? But in some of the training videos, it looks like the Hokkas are quite willing to try and engage with the bears too. How does it work with old style bear hunting with NKs? I wonder if way back when the Akitas were used, were they supposed to do a variety of catch and bay? Though it seems safer for the dog to only bay a bear.



    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    @shibamistress - Bear hunting is done with bay dogs. The NK would bay or tree the bear, then the hunter would shoot it. Most good bear hunting dogs will bite the bear to distract it, but they are not biting and holding the bear - it's just a nip to get the bear to turn around - which enables the dogs to keep the bear in one area. Essentially bear dogs harass a bear to the point of flight but give the bear no option to run.
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2013-04-17 14:02:35
  • jikjakjikjak
    Posts: 431
    wow, a lot of interesting stuff. is there a lot of training involved to be able to hunt with the NKs or does it come pretty naturally to them?

    if training is needed, where can i do that?

    also, a bit OT but how do shikoku and kai hunt? would they tree bears and big cats?
  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    Posts: 1175
    @jikjak - I don't hunt large game, but I do hunt ground hogs and possum with my shikoku. We have also hunted juvenile raccoons (and squirrels who ventured into the yard). For both, they generally are out to catch and kill it immediately by shaking. Both of mine with go in for the kill, but if the animal puts up a fight and they cannot get a good bite on it, both will switch to "bark to detain". My male especially will bark about a few inches away very loudly, and jumping out of the way to avoid the prey's teeth. Believe it or not, some ground hogs are mean and will put up a good fight (and at 13-15 lbs, they are not the easiest to kill for a 33-38 lb dog by shaking).

    PS - no training was involved. Both went in on instinct, but both learned very quickly were to bite the prey to avoid the prey biting them back! Once a ground hog bit my male (only shikoku I had at the time) on the arm, hard, and that just made Kuma super bad and he screamed and went in and killed the ground hog immediately. I had someone tell my that their lab and rottweiler gave up hunting ground hogs after they got bitten by one, but not my shikoku.
  • jikjakjikjak
    Posts: 431
    awesome! i wish i had groundhogs here for them to try and catch. there are sometimes skunks and raccoons in the area though but i thought that raccoons can do a lot of damage to a dog and that its not worth letting them go after them.

    maybe i should let him try and go after rabbits. at least he will chase a deer though but who knows what he would do if he could ever get his mouth on one.
    Post edited by jikjak at 2013-04-17 17:12:03
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    It's a learning process.

    The most important step is shooting the animal for the dog. Once the dog figures out you shoot it for them... the rest is just error and trial for the dog on his/her own.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    @Edgewood @jikjak Very cool! Yeah large rodents are actually pretty darn dangerous! I've been advised to not let my future Red-Tail/Red-Shouldered Hawk go after squirrels due to their powerful teeth. Hawks have lost toes, even feet, before from single bites in the wrong places. I suppose bones and large veins are easier to cut through than acorns and wood heh. Raccoons are sorta crazy with how many diseases they carry too, in addition to rabies!

    @souggy Interesting, they actually start relying on the hunter to kill the animal?

    @brada1878 @poeticdragon This is also offtopic, but do you know if JA's are still used in any sort of hunting?
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
    Post edited by cezieg at 2013-04-19 22:36:08
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    Sorry for not explaining. :) Guess it's not inherently obvious. At first the dog will chase everything that movie. By shooting an animal, you are encouraging the dog's prey drive. At first, the dog's patience will wear thin and with each game taken, the dog learns to hold the animal longer before hunter arrives to shoot. So, at first, the puppy will be a bit spastic with very little attention span. The more game you shoot for it, the longer the attention span-- that is if you actually subconsciously reward longer periods with the "reward" or the killed game.

    Also, when a puppy is young, they are only bold enough to take on smaller animals. So, when Pavel came to me, he was only bold enough to take on domestic cats, squirrels and chipmunks. His attention span was only about 15-30 seconds and he ignored bigger animals. As he matured, he became more confident enough to try and chase deer and moose. He also barked longer than at first. Whether or not you decide to take the animal he pursue will be reinforcing the behaviour. The more you focus on other animals, the more the prey drive is redirected. So, eventually the dog learns to ignore certain animals and go after desirable ones.

    Right now I am in the process of deer-breaking. :)

    DO NOT LET YOUR DOG CHASE DEER IN THE SNOW.

    It is a hard habit to break when the dog learns it can potentially catch a deer in the deep snow. Usually the dog can't catch the deer in spring or fall, but when winter comes-- once the dog learns it can catch the deer, it's difficult to break without using aversive methods like e-collar.

    That was the biggest mistake I have made: letting him almost catch a doe who was laying down in the snow.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2013-04-19 17:11:11
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    @cezieg - I really do not know. I am not "in the know" when it comes to Akita.
  • jikjakjikjak
    Posts: 431
    just wondering, but why is it bad if the dog actually learns to catch the deer. is it dangerous to the dog or is it because the dog wont know whether or not the deer he tries to catch is allowed to be harvested or not?
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    @jikjak It's illegal in most parts of North America to let a dog chase deer. In some cases, any big-game animals.

    For example, although bear-hunting is allowed in 28 states; only 20 of them allows dogs to be used in a bear-hunt. Or in the case of deer: Ontario is the only province in Canada which allows dogs to be used in a deer-hunt; Quebec, I am not so sure about. In the United States, there are only 10-14 states (regulations change all the time) which allows dogs to be used in a deer-hunt and they tend to be former Confederate states.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2013-04-20 00:23:26
  • @Edgewood @jikjak Very cool! Yeah large rodents are actually pretty darn dangerous! I've been advised to not let my future Red-Tail/Red-Shouldered Hawk go after squirrels due to their powerful teeth. Hawks have losed toes, even feet, before from single bites in the wrong places. I suppose bones and large veins are easier to cut through than acorns and wood heh. Raccoons are sorta crazy with how many diseases they carry too, in addition to rabies!

    @souggy Interesting, they actually start relying on the hunter to kill the animal?

    @brada1878 @poeticdragon This is also offtopic, but do you know if JA's are still used in any sort of hunting?


    Wait! Your future hawk? Are you a falconer or learning to be one? That is only the COOLEST THING EVER! More info, please!

    (one of the coolest things I remember from a natural history class in Alaska years ago was when a falconer came to class. He had a white phase gyrfalcon, like the most gorgeous bird of prey ever. He told us about getting his permit to capture a hatchling, and how he did it--and my god, that was a story!--and then we say the bird and it was just amazing!)

    And a note about dogs and rodents: my vet said she sees a lot of injuries with dogs from gophers. Who would have thought? but gophers do have very large sharp teeth, and dogs apparently often get bit in the nose, muzzle or lips. Often from sticking their noses in gopher holes. We used to have some but Bel (shiba) killed them all, luckily with no injury to herself).
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2013-04-19 20:43:18
  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    Posts: 2857
    The last JA hunting lines I knew of were Morie's dogs (Dog Man: Uncommon Life on a Far Away Mountain). The majority of the population is separated by many decades from its hunting roots. From what I have seen of the Nihon Ken, today's Akitas have the least prey drive, too.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2013-04-19 21:26:09
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    @souggy Ahhhh so it's doubly bad, one because it's reinforcing them to go after deer if they're not your target, and two because it's illegal and you'll get in a f-ton of trouble for it. That's a really neat way to train them for game. I wouldn't have thought shooting the prey would be considered a reward, because it's no longer something they can chase + they aren't eating the prey animal... or at least I wouldn't think a hunter would want that?

    @poeticdragon Good to know. I'm guessing that line has pretty much died out even if one was to try to acquire one?

    @shibamistress Maybe :) http://followgram.me/i/422632030693196286_987783
    I'm networking to find a sponsor while studying to take the apprentice test. I have orientation tomorrow and will have my schedule (full time until summer semester starts). So I'm going to call Florida Fish & Wildlife on Monday to reserve a spot on the next testing day that coincides with a day off or far enough away that I can get the day off.
    That's so freaking cool that you go to see a white morph Gyr up close! They look so fierce and majestic, the Rolls Royce of falcons. My goal is to reach General status (2 years after issuance of Apprentice license), then trap a Harris Hawk and a Gyr or Peregrine. Harris are beautiful and the most social of hawks, and the dog fighting of Gyrs and the high altitude dives of Peregrines are amazing. I plan on training Ren to flush small game.
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    @cezieg Puppies are usually allowed to play with the animal or mouth the critter. Some hunters feed innards to the dog too. But yes, eating the actual animal is frown upon and is discouraged.

    NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sag4d60Z3Z0

    From this Swedish documentary (dubbed in Russian) [5:44 to 10:20], you can see how the dog is rewarded for his behaviour-- he is allowed to play with the bird, he gets the feet of the birds, the gizzards and so on.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
  • jikjakjikjak
    Posts: 431
    wow, i didnt know that it was actually illegal. im going to check on the regulations in BC for using dogs to hunt bear as well. its definitely allowed for cougars though.

    as for the deer ill just let him track it for me after the shot. he did a great job last january during bow season and he loves the downed game. he didnt want to let go of it!
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    Hunting ungulates with dogs is legal in B.C. as long dog is on a leash. :)

    Everything else is fair-game: small-game, predators, ducks, pests. Whatever.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs

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