Conservation of the breed - The Nihon Ken Forum (日本犬コミュニティ-)

Saki

I would like to know the breeder's opinion on this.

We've seen the Shiba Inu get popular over the years, especially in the states (well, probably because the US soldiers brought them back home after the war). I'm pretty sure their intention of preserving the breed was the same as today. Today, we are seeing more and more Shiba Inu in Canada; just in Quebec, not so long ago, their was only one or two breeder. Now, I just have to look up on the classified ads on the internet and I'm able to find a few more not so far from where I live.

Here's the problem. I called a few of them and asked questions about their breeding "habits". Barely any test were done on the parents except for the regular vet checkup. Basically, they have no clue if their dogs have a hip or eye problem. Serious breeders take the time and spend the money to have these tests performed on their dogs to make sure that they will have healthy puppies. What's not fair towards these serious breeders is that the "wannabes" breeders sale their puppies the same price as if they did all those health tests. It gives the impression that they choose this breed because they could make more money out of them than a Golden Retriever, for example.

One of them told me that she bought her two Shibas from Mrs. X because she does not sales her puppies already neutered, so you can breed them too. I see puppy mills coming around soon with this breed if this continues like that.

My questions is: As a breeder, shouldn't you sale your puppies already neutered unless the person that want to breed too have to sign a sort of contract, get registered or something like that? Question of keeping an eye on what's going on before it gets out of control since the other Japanese breeds are slowly getting more popular.

There's enough Shibas in shelters in the US (not yet in Quebec (thank God)), I don't want to see the other ones follow.

What do you think?

rikumom · Post edited by rikumom at 2013-01-20 22:09:50

[edited, messaging saki privately]

MapleTwinkie · Post edited by MapleTwinkie at 2013-01-20 23:05:29

I agree Saki, however this probably happens to whatever breed is currently in style. There are a few good breeders in Quebec of Shiba; shibakita.ca is one!

jeffnkazuko · Post edited by jeffnkazuko at 2013-01-20 23:12:32

I agree, it is going to happen with any breed. I can remember a big Sharpei boom in the late 80's. Cute wrinkly pups were selling for big bucks and people were just hopping on the bandwagon. I still don't understand the Shiba thing as they are very popular family dog in Japan and I have never heard anyone here comment that they are any different from any other dog.

As for your question, some breeders will sell their dogs with the condition that they need to be neutered/spayed and do this by withholding the dog's pedigree until the dog has been altered. Of course the breeder would have to charge much less for this kind of dog.
People usually spend a lot of money on a purebred dog so it can be shown and unaltered dogs cannot be shown.

jellyfish

Just because the breeder sells the dog without a speuter contract doesnt mean theyre a bad breeder. It is always circumstantial. Sometimes, responsible breeders will sell an intact dog to a puppy buyer because they trust the owner with making health decisions for their dog. Altering a dog is a huge decision and I think good breeders can pick good owners and can trust them with these decisions.

Sometimes, however, (and what it sounds like from your post), there might be some irresponsible, ill-informed breeders who treat breeding way too casually. To me, those breeders often do not do health tests, screen homes, ect... that is what we call a backyard breeder, regardless of their intentions.

Odds are, I would expect to see shiba puppy mills pop up in canada. The breed is the most popular of all the nihon ken.

Saya

"I see puppy mills coming around soon with this breed if this continues like that."

Sadly in USA shiba inu are in puppymills and petstores it's sad.

First shiba I ever saw was a red shiba in a pet store. Poor dog was so lethargic compared to Saya.

Saya's breeder required me to send them proof Saya was spayed.

Sadly there is a lot of bad breeders.

Why it can be hard to find good ones and ones who wants a shiba right now are more than likely to go with a puppymill dog or bad one because they have puppies almost all the time and don't ask any questions if the potential puppy buyer is right for the breed..

Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)

shibamistress

Go read the Shiba forum. You'll see that plenty of shibas already are in puppy mills, and we spend a whole lot of time on the Shiba forum trying to educated people about what a good breeder is and isn't. What you're worried about already is reality in the Shiba Inu breed.

As for selling already spayed/neutered, it is not healthy to alter a puppy that young, and most reputable breeders know that. The good ones sell pets on spay/neuter contracts; the bad ones could care less.

Shibas don't, by the way, sell for more than any other pure bred dog in many parts of the US at least. A well bred Golden can sell for more the a Shiba; except for rare breeds, I'm not seeing a lot of difference in prices in purebred dogs.

Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)

jeffnkazuko

@shibamistress

I guess it is all about education. In Japan a toy breed at pet store will go for between $2500 to $4000 and even a mix if it is small and cute will go for up to or over $2000.
There are couple of Shibas at a pet store near my house now, one red and one white(!) and they are going for about $1500. Their quality seems to be OK (except for the color!) but who knows where they came from. The crazy thing is that you could go to good breeder here and get a better quality dog for less than half the price. It just shows that pet stores make their money on people making impulse purchases which of course is not good. If people were really searching for a dog and did a bit of homework they would realize that a breeder would be a much better option both for quality of the animal and the price.

shibamistress

jeffnkazuko said:
@shibamistress

I guess it is all about education. In Japan a toy breed at pet store will go for between $2500 to $4000 and even a mix if it is small and cute will go for up to or over $2000.
There are couple of Shibas at a pet store near my house now, one red and one white(!) and they are going for about $1500. Their quality seems to be OK (except for the color!) but who knows where they came from. The crazy thing is that you could go to good breeder here and get a better quality dog for less than half the price. It just shows that pet stores make their money on people making impulse purchases which of course is not good. If people were really searching for a dog and did a bit of homework they would realize that a breeder would be a much better option both for quality of the animal and the price.

Exactly. It really does come down to education. I've heard people on the Shiba side try to justify their purchase of mill dogs (which now are sold online more than through pet stores as the US shuts down puppy sales at pet stores more and more) because they think it is "too much" to pay $1000-1200 for a puppy, and people seem to think this is so expensive because they are "rare" breeds. (And Shibas are no longer rare). But I have a friend who is looking for a golden retriever, and none of the really good breeders (who do health tests, who show their dogs or work with them, etc) are selling puppies for less that $1200, and many of them are going for around $1400 for a pet puppy (no breeding contract). And of course,the breeders aren't really making any money on the dogs--that's not why they do it.

If people just spent some time learning about these things before they bought...and weren't impatient, and weren't buying on impulse, well, it would be a better world for dogs.

Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)

Saki · Post edited by Saki at 2013-01-21 20:14:52

Thank you all for your opinions. I took the Shiba as an example only, because it's the most popular breed of the 7. And no, Shibas are not different from other dogs, but since this forum talks only about the Japanese breeds ...

jeffnkazuko said:
I agree, it is going to happen with any breed. I can remember a big Sharpei boom in the late 80's. Cute wrinkly pups were selling for big bucks and people were just hopping on the bandwagon. I still don't understand the Shiba thing as they are very popular family dog in Japan and I have never heard anyone here comment that they are any different from any other dog.

Why say that it's going to happen with any breed? Why surrender? Since the other breeds (kai, shikoku, etc.) are still rare why not making the required efforts to make sure it won't happen? Ok, sending the breeder the proof that you had your dog neutered is not a garantee that they actually did it, but it's better than nothing.

If all breeders would work the same way and sale their dogs more/less for the same price, people wouldn't buy a dog on impulse as the price would reflect all the work they put into their breeding. They would think of it twice before commiting. I see a dog is a personnal investment, not a cute thing you just leave there and collect dust.

I'm sorry if you guys think I'm harsh and I don't want to upset anyone ... I'm just sad and concerned about the future of the rest of the Japanese breeds.

It's just that I got surprised when I asked a breeder if I had to get my pup spayed and he said that it was up to me ... So if I was a bad person, I would buy 2 dogs, breed them, mix them and maybe start a puppy mill. See my point?

jeffnkazuko

@saki
I really do see your point and no one likes when these things happen. If a breeder is selling a dog as a pet only then I agree they can/should put a no breed contract in place. On the other hand if you are selling a show quality dog, it must be able to be shown and therefore must be left unaltered. The problem is there are always going to be people looking to make money off selling the "breed of the moment" and i think it would be near impossible to stop these people from somehow getting a pair of dogs to breed.

It is an unfortunate situation.

PS: After re-reading my last post I don't think I made myself very clear about the Shibas. What i meant to say is since I have never lived with a Shiba I don't understand how their personalities are different from other dogs. I am a huge Shiba fan and didn't mean any offense.

Saya

I have same fears with kai kens, shikoku, kishu I'd hate for them to be in puppymills.

It might happen never know.

Hopefully it never happens.

Hopefully humans wake up and stop buying from puppymills if it wasn't so profitable there wouldn't be this large scale breeding going on.

Plus this mentality I'm 50 I want the puppy now and I don't want to be on a snobby breeder's waiting list need to stop.

I mean come on patience is a virtue! Too bad people think of dogs as items and must have it now.

A dog might live to 9 or even 16 years old might as well make sure the dog's breed is right for you and temperament and health is good..

Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)

MapleTwinkie · Post edited by MapleTwinkie at 2013-01-22 13:03:05

@saki , unfortunately not all breeders care to preserve the breed. There are many that just want to make money. Where I live, there was a breeder who was importing from puppy mills in Europe but he made it seem like those were his own litters. Some of these dogs turned out to have serious health and behaviour problems. The buyers end up paying the price at the end.

Unfortunately, like JeffnKazuko said, it happens with any breed and you can't really stop them. The only way is to educate the buyers; if there's no demand there's no supply. People will always want the best deal and dogs are an emotional purchase, so it's hard not to get sucked in.

PoetikDragon · Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2013-01-22 13:56:12

I strongly feel that we should be encouraging fanciers to take an interest in our breeds, keep their dogs intact, and start kennels of their own. I know this is a controversial opinion to those who are afraid every new breeder will be irresponsible and become a backyard breeder. There is a risk that they will do more harm than good, but also great chance they will do a lot of good, so hear me out. Demand for our breeds is higher than the responsible breeders can ever hope to meet. Puppy buyers who are otherwise good and responsible people will purchase a pup from a backyard breeder when they have no other opportunity to get the dog they want. Through no fault of our own, we are driving buyers to irresponsible breeders because we cannot meet the demand. If we encourage people to breed under the guidance of an experienced mentor, our numbers will grow. The more responsible breeders we have, spread out all over the country/continent, the less good people will resort to bad breeders. However, if responsible breeders close ranks and discourage all newcomers from breeding, then the only new breeders will be those who could care less about breeding responsibly. They're going to do what they want how they want to and nothing we say can stop them. All we can do is treat them as business competition and take away their market share.

TLDR; Buyer education is one way to reduce BYB market share. Increased availability and litters per year from responsible breeders is another. We should employ both for the best outcome.

「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
http://www.kaijukennels.com

shibamistress

Saya said:
I have same fears with kai kens, shikoku, kishu I'd hate for them to be in puppymills.

It might happen never know.

Hopefully it never happens.

Hopefully humans wake up and stop buying from puppymills if it wasn't so profitable there wouldn't be this large scale breeding going on.

Plus this mentality I'm 50 I want the puppy now and I don't want to be on a snobby breeder's waiting list need to stop.

I mean come on patience is a virtue! Too bad people think of dogs as items and must have it now.

A dog might live to 9 or even 16 years old might as well make sure the dog's breed is right for you and temperament and health is good..

Exactly. I remember that post well from the Shiba side, and I thought, huh, getting older didn't make this person any smarter, apparently.

I don't think the problem is solved with simply one approach. With Shibas, as this discussion started with, there is no problem with availability of the breed. There are plenty of Shibas available from good breeders. People just don't want to wait, or pay the money for a dog from a good kennel, even if the price is just standard pure bred dog price. So I don't think having more dogs available will solve the problem alone, and I'd be very cautious about encouraging people to start their own kennels, when a lot of them will end up just being BYBs.

I don't know that there is a solution. Education is one thing. For me, if I were a breeder, I'd have super tight control on who I sold dogs to, and I'd have pretty tight contracts. (not that they are always easy to enforce--though I know one Golden breeder who has a strict contract and says, very clearly, that she can and has gone after people who bred her dogs when they were sold on a spay/neuter contract). If I were a breeder, I think I'd mostly be trying to find the best possible place for my dogs, and try to control that as much as possible, because once they leave there is little you can do.

Education is important. Breeders being careful about who they sell to, and where they get their dogs, and their own practices is important.

And I disagree that it through no fault of their own that people go with bybs or mills. It is, ultimately, their choice NOT to wait for a dog from a good breeder. People do it out of ignorance; I can forgive that. I cannot forgive, nor do I think it is justified, to say they do it because they have no other options. Yes they do. They just decide NOT to wait. That's not something I have a lot of patience for.

Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)

PoetikDragon · Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2013-01-22 14:46:27

No I didn't say buyers go to mills through no fault of their own, I said that lack of availability is driving them there and that its not the fault of the breeders.

EDIT: Its not always a matter of patience and I think you're being too general and judgmental. The breeder @MapleTwinkie mentioned WAS the only option in Canada. US Japanese Akita breeders were/are refusing to sell to Canada. Importing is not an option for most, either -- and anyone who exports from Japan to the US is pretty much by definition not a reputable breeder by western standards, because they are not responsible for and do not take that dog back at any point in its lifetime.

「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
http://www.kaijukennels.com

shibamistress

I don't think it is the fault of the breeders (why would anyone blame good breeders for the bad ones?), but I do blame people who buy from mills (if they don't do it out of ignorance--can't blame people for not knowing). I'm not talking about JAs, by the way, as I said. I'm talking about Shibas. The situation with Shibas is already as dire as the original poster said. That's what I'm talking about. For the other NK breeds, we better all just hope it never gets as bad as it already is with Shibas.

Maybe I am too judgmental, but I'm sticking by my judgmentalness, because once people know what mills are, I see NO justification for buying from one. I have a mill dog. I didn't know what a mill was when I got her; now I do. I would never want a certain breed so badly that I would "justify" buying one from a mill. I don't understand why anyone else would either--it is just a road to heartbreak. That's what I'm talking about, and that's what I'm making a judgment about that I am quite comfortable in standing by.

Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)

PoetikDragon · Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2013-01-22 15:41:19

I agree there is no justification for buying from a puppy mill or backyard breeder. My post was mainly about what we can do besides education to reduce demand from BYBs and mills.

「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
http://www.kaijukennels.com

MapleTwinkie · Post edited by MapleTwinkie at 2013-01-22 18:10:12

I don't think we'll ever be able to stop the demand for BYB and mills. We can definately do our best to educate and thus reduce their #'s.

Here is an analogy:
Counterfeit Items (use any example you wish). Retailers of genuine items try to have their merchandise in as many retail outlets as possible so that it is accessible to the consumers. Good and responsible consumers will choose to purchase from legitimate outlets.

Counterfeit items are of poor quality, made in sweathouses, are not quality/safety tested etc and the proceeds of which fund illicit activities such as money laundering and terrorism. Knowing this, weirdos still continue to purchase counterfeit items. Irresponsible people will buy bad products just because it's cheaper and don't care about the consequences.

I think this is the same with dogs and breeders. We should aim to educate and encourage good breeding practices of rare dog breeds.

But you're right @shibamistress, people who knowingly buy from BYB and mills are deplorable. Unfortunately, they'll never change.

PoetikDragon · Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2013-01-22 20:10:38

@MapleTwinkie I was thinking of movie piracy when I made my original post, LOL. The industry is changing because they finally realized they should treat pirates as competition instead of treating their customers as criminals.

- Pirates are competition. Get the product out faster and with more features for a comparable price and buyers will flock to you instead of the pirates. Delay releases, prevent it from streaming on Netflix or Hulu, or otherwise make the movie hard to find and people will resort to piracy. [Backyard breeders are competition. Outperform them and you'll take their business away.]

- Customers are not criminals. Remember ten years ago when Sony DVDs required very special DRM software and if it detected something which MIGHT be a DVD burner drive you couldn't watch the movie you bought? Yeah, that was a terrible idea. Nowadays Disney gives you digital copies of the movie to put on your smart phone without needing to rip it at all. Instead of increasing piracy the sales of legit copies have gone up dramatically. [Puppy buyers are not criminals. Educate and work with them instead of rejecting them and they'll make the right choices.]

... So yeah, way off on a tangent now... *shuts up*

「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
http://www.kaijukennels.com

Yandharr

@Poeticdragon - It's all clear to me now. If a speuter contract = DRM, then breeders should supply a digital copy of their pup so that buyers can share with their friends. :P

@brada1878 where's my digi-pup? lol

But seriously, I agree with you, but how does a responsible breeder "compete" without running his/her dogs into the ground? which makes me also agree with @MapleTwinkie that it'll never stop.

My long-shot at a solution: more interactive breeder-buyer support. If the issue is one of conspicuous consumption then give buyers something provisional to "have" until they can get a pup of their own. Maybe a co-op/temp pup that will eventually be re-homed and in return the buyer gets a "reduced price" for their work in supporting the breeder(plus the breeder knows the buyer can take care of a pup). Or they can sponsor a pup in exchange for a spot on the next eligible litter- kind of like the whole tv commercial with the African children. That would work very well in communities such as NKF and the Shiba side where members have a sense of group-identity and responsibility to each other.

Personally, I think that education as a primary strategy is a severely uphill battle- especially for the younger crowd that HATES to be pitched to, preached to, or sold in any fashion. If anything it just makes those looking out for the good of the breed seem like that crazy old cat-lady everyone avoided when they were kids.

in all, the situation sucks :(

lindsayt

I don't think everyone should be able to have these dogs because they want one. The wrong thing, IMO, is to make more intact dogs available for pet owners without restrictions, clear expectstions and mentoring, because it is important that the dogs are not put in a position to be exploited, or become "collateral damage". If that means they are not all bred, that is fine.

info@hokkaidoken.org
www.hokkaidoken.com
www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com

*JackBurton*

It will never stop. People will always try to make a quick buck so when a breed gets popular then a lot of the lowlifes come out.

This is one of the reasons why I'm not overly excited about having a JA in AKC. Education is great at turning people on to our breed it is equally good encouraging others to breed badly.

Go look at the JA puppies listed on one of the puppy websites. The only reason that guy isn't rolling in the $$ is because he costs more than we do. Not to mention that they got nailed last year for dumping a blend in a shelter litter and all.

www.akita-inu.com
www.Japanese-Akitas.com
pedigrees.akita-inu.com

white_bear · Post edited by white_bear at 2013-01-24 15:14:03

Unfortunately there are many Akitas coming from backyard breeders and from puppy mills over here. The prices are outrageous, around 250-500 euros. No good breeder can compete with these prices. The females are bred at every heat cycle until they die, pups are sent away when they are 5-6 weeks old - no vaccination, wormers, nothing. And this will never stop, as @JackBurton was saying.

In comparison, we start breeding a female when she is 2 and a half years old (already ”wasting 3 heat cycles”, we breed her at every other heat or even rarer (we had a break of 1 and a half year between litters) and we keep the pups until they are 11 weeks old, do all vaccinations, wormers, give them a going away kit etc. Not to mention the time put into studying the breed, time taken off work, shows all over Europe and paying purchase prices for the current adult dogs in the thousands of euros.

There is no way in hell I can compete with puppy mills or byb in the eyes of somebody who wants just a pup that looks like Akita (the counterfeit items @MapleTwinkie was talking about). But these people are not my target, so there is no problem. I try to find good responsible owners that are vetted with outmost care, who are in most cases recommended by friends and other breeders. I think these are the buyers that @poeticdragon was talking about. If you find such good owners I think the risks of them developing BYB are much smaller. I think this is the secret: responsible breeders giving their dogs to responsible owners. No matter how much we try, we cannot keep more than a limited number of dogs in our home. But if we find good owners and the pups are sold in co-ownership (even for just 1 or 2 lwell thought litters) that is a huge win for the breed. Yes, you will get screwed eventually, but the wins outweigh the costs, IMO.

Irina and the kids: Tenshi, Hinu, Tsuki, Kito, Dori, Mizuki (JA) and feline beast Loulou.
http://akita-ken.ro/

rikumom

Northern California Shiba Inu Rescue posted this on Facebook:
Animal Cops Philadelphia 11: Puppy Mills Exposed
http://youtu.be/oWVkV6mZ3rw

sjp051993

OMG. The Shibas in the video broke my heart.

Stacey living with Tora, Kazue, Ritsu and Kuma the Shiba
www.suteishiikennels.com

MikoChan

That was a heavy video as I was working.

Saki

Plan to watch it when I'll be alone ... I know myself and tears will drop :((

Saya

Spoiler alert any video or blog or article on puppymills is sad so never watch if your somewhere you don't want to tear up..

I seen some sad pictures and videos of various breeds shiba or GSD makes me sad to see. :(

Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)

shibamistress · Post edited by shibamistress at 2013-01-25 21:31:44

Thanks for posting that. It's horrific, but important for people to see. I reposted it on the Shiba side, where it is even more relevant, sadly.

It was also really well done, I thought, because I was glad that it didn't bash reputable breeders, and though it stressed adoption, it also showed a good breeder. They really covered the subject well.

Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)

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