No BS Hunting Kishu
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1617
    These are videos of Riki and Gon, two Kishu bred by a gentleman that pretty much single-handedly preserved the Hosoda line of Kishu's. One dog against a boar several times its own weight. The video speaks for itself.



  • dlrobertsdlroberts
    Posts: 6552
    Damn dude! That is one SERIOUS dog. Totally fearless. In the second video he is getting swung around like a rag and still holds on. That's more like what I'd expect from some of the molosers used for hunting pigs. Impressive!
    dlrobertsdlroberts
    Dave, proudly owned by Joey (Shiba Inu), Tyson (Kai Ken), and PRG's Mason Julien McDieserton III, a.k.a. Diesel (Labrador Retriever).
    "My opinion may have changed, but not the fact that I'm right"
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3016
    I agree with Dave one serious hunting dog there!

    Thanks for posting this I enjoyed watching that tough dog.
    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    wow - tons of fight in those dogs! Really impressive!

    Are these Kishu related to your Kishu at all?

    In the first vid, I think the dog's right front leg was a little hurt... Do you know if they suffered any injuries? If so, what type (I'm interested in hearing about the injuries most typical for a hunting dog, obviously punctures would be high on the list I assume).

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    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • ala-chanala-chan
    Posts: 93
    DAMN!
    That's like... i never understood what people liked about hunting, but that was like... I NEED to go hunting with my dogs! (I'd be the first hunting vegetarian... LOL)
    Seeing this dog is like... It's born to do this kind of stuff!

    Hunting big animals with dogs is forbidden in Germany though, I think... It's a bit of a pity... Industrial livestock farming is alright, but hunting? Noooo, that's sooo evil!

    I NEED to go to America or Japan one day to at least see some boar hunting with NKs! It's really stunning!
    Thank you very much for sharing these vids...
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1671
    Out of context it seems pretty brutal and brutal to the body as well....isn't there a point in training where you teach the dog to be called off. I would think the danger to human and dog is double if you can't do that.

    The injury that might not be apparent in the video might be to the bicep. Hopefully they can keep him from doing too much damage to himself since he is so tenacious.

    Snf
    Post edited by StaticNfuzz at 2010-06-23 17:38:29
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    Posts: 4055
    That is bad*ass! Super cool! The dog's ok right?
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    Thats what I'm talking about. You just dont see that kind of fight with other hog breeds when they hunt alone. I think Riki is the father of Taro and Baron.

    Thats just hands down two bad izass Kishus!

    @Brad: My Riki has gotten cuts on his hind legs, front legs, sprained legs, pulled muscle, and a deep slash on top of his muzzle from a big bobcat. Fortunately all of his injuries were not too bad and cleared up quick. I always keep a K-9 medic kit with me and it allows me to do general treatments like stitching up cuts and splintering limbs. it really sucks but once in awhile it will happen. Even having multiple dogs, younger dogs with little experience often times learn the hard way.Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    The following is going to be considered a gory description of injuries.













    @Brad: I heard of a dogo argentino whose front leg was broken when a big boar bit him there and threw him onto the ground during a "controlled" pen test. People heard the bone crunch and the leg was L shaped. The dogo still got up on 3 legs to go back at the boar though.

    There are also hunting stories of boars slicing, not just puncturing, a dog's gut and the intestines spilling out. A dog doesn't have to die when this happens though. It takes a level head to field clean the intestines, bandage the dog up for transport to the vet for surgery, and then dose the dog with massive amount of antibiotics.

    Serious stuff these boars.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • TeamLaikaTeamLaika
    Posts: 302
    Shigeru - that looks like a fenced area. Is it for training purposes? If so, have the tusks on this boar been removed? That is sometimes the case with pigs in training pens.

    Do Japanese hog hunters typically shoot over their dogs, or do they knife the pigs when they are held by dogs? Are Kishu routinely expected to catch?
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1617
    Graphic reply concerning boar dogs below **************************************












    @Brad I'm not sure if he hurt his leg there. Totally possible, boar dogs do get injured. And yes, this is the Hosoda line that Gen's Taro, my Baron, and Momo are bred from. I'm pretty sure this is a different Riki though, Gen.

    Injuries:

    Yes, boars are serious stuff, and hunting them is not for the faint hearted. Common injuries are mostly caused by getting cut by the male's tusks. You will see puncture wounds like Brad guessed, around the chest, neck, and foreleg. Boar tusks are sharp, and every once in a while you will get a long sideways slash where the intestines will show like Ann said. Most veteran boar hunters are pretty good at their canine first aid and know what to do. If your dog is agile and reacts well, instead of getting a serious slash, it will just get scratched. You see that on the torso, and rear legs a lot. Female boar don't have the tusks, so injuries from them are usually from bites. Boar jaws are powerful. I've heard of dogs getting their paws fractured. Baron and Momo both ended up getting nipped by the boar the other day, but neither had much more than a bit of scratching.

    Like Gen said, sometimes you will get sprains and stuff like that too. Every once in a while there's fluke accidents where dogs and boar will get injured tumbling down mountainsides, and I've heard of a couple dogs drowning.

    @SNF I know in Australia many hunters will train their dogs to catch on command, and let go on command. In Japan I've never seen this. I'm attempting to train my dogs to do just that, but it's not easy.

    @Team Laika Yes, that is a fenced in boar pen like the one I went to the other day. Often, but not always, the boar's tusks are removed for safety reasons. Also it's illegal in Japan to hunt boar without carrying a firearm. If for the dog's safety you have to use a knife, it's allowed, but that's the exception. Since we don't use big molosser types here in Japan the boars aren't as solidly held like they are in the States or Australia. Most hunters here are past their 50's, so would much rather take a shot than go in with a knife to dispatch. As far as Kishu catching, out of all the NK they have the most catch in them. Of course unlike a genuine catch dog they size up their opponent before going in, and will bay up the larger boars.


    One thing that concerns me over here in Japan is that not a lot of people use cut vests. The harsh undergrowth and mountainous terrain do make it easy for them to get tangled up, but now that I've got dogs that will actually catch and not just bay, I'll be picking some up before the season starts.

    There's a lot more I'd like to add about hunting boar, but I've got to get some work done, and I'd end up with another one of my infamous wall of text posts.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • jm1613jm1613
    Posts: 58
    Those dogs are feisty. I'll be waiting in case Shigeru does end up erecting a wall of wise words. lol. This is interesting, and I'd like to learn more.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1617
    Just got a mail from Baron and Taro's breeder. He saw these videos as well and just wanted to say that these dogs are the exception. An inexperienced dog hunting like that in the mountains with no protection would most likely get its artery severed and end up dead or severely injured.

    Anyway, just wanted to put this up there since I just posted the videos without any disclaimer of that sort. Don't want everyone getting the idea that this is how NK are supposed to hunt boar. It's impressive and an explosive style of hunting, but not necessarily the best.

    Like Dave said, this is more of what you'd expect from a molosser type dog.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • dlrobertsdlroberts
    Posts: 6552
    Thanks for clarifying Shigeru! I was hesitant to say anything in my first post because you seemed excited about that dog, but if that's how any of my dogs tried to fight a pig I probably wouldn't hunt with them. It seems like a recipie for a dead hunting dog. :-(
    dlrobertsdlroberts
    Dave, proudly owned by Joey (Shiba Inu), Tyson (Kai Ken), and PRG's Mason Julien McDieserton III, a.k.a. Diesel (Labrador Retriever).
    "My opinion may have changed, but not the fact that I'm right"
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1617
    Don't get me wrong, I'm amazed at those two dogs. I weigh around 65kg, and I wouldn't even want to think about trying to physically tackle something twice as large as me, and those boars are at least 3-5 times heavier than the dogs. To get to where they're actually stopping the boar is nuts. But in a real world situation dogs like that would have a very short life.

    When I first saw the video I'd had a few beers as well, so didn't think much before posting haha. Go Nippon!
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • Two SocksTwo Socks
    Posts: 360
    Dr. Dave ,I was wondering what you thought about this . Can you see yourself &Tyson doing this?
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • dlrobertsdlroberts
    Posts: 6552
    Yes and no. I can't see myself allowing a dog to go right for the danger zone like that. That is why I have a preference for dogs that naturally bay rather than catch. I'm not experienced enough to teach a dog that is so fearless to keep his distance.

    Based on what I've seen from Tyson so far, I don't see him doing that; however, I haven't really seen him "turn on" yet, so who knows.

    As for myself, I can see myself getting a pretty gnarly adrenaline rush from doing something like that with Ty.
    dlrobertsdlroberts
    Dave, proudly owned by Joey (Shiba Inu), Tyson (Kai Ken), and PRG's Mason Julien McDieserton III, a.k.a. Diesel (Labrador Retriever).
    "My opinion may have changed, but not the fact that I'm right"
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    Thanks for the details on the common types of injuries. I knew they got injured, and I have seen cuts and punctures on hog dogs, but I had never heard of bone breaks or ligament tears... and that surprised me. So hearing that those are common makes sense to me.

    My personal opinion on using dogs for this type of hunting is that it is not a forced thing. I don't see anyone forcing their dogs to catch/bay boar. If you watch that video its clear those dogs love doing that work - if they didn't they wouldn't go back for more or hang on when their being flung around - they'd probably act more like Shigeru's Haru, and just avoid the boar.

    Sure their is a higher risk that your dog will be hurt if you boar hunt with them, but the same can really be said for a lot of thing (like mushing or flyball). In boar hunting I think you have to rely on the dog's natural ability to judge his/her abilities and not push themselves to the point of being hurt - accidents happen - but if you consider how much risk this type of thing is and how few injuries happen, it becomes pretty clear to me that dogs do have a natural ability to gauge the situation and act appropriately to minimize injury. Take for example what Shigeru said regarding NK that catch and how they usually only do do this if they feel they can overpower the boar - this, to me, is the dog using his/her natural judgment in the situation.

    In regards to this training, I would argue that this training is just as stressful for the animal as allowing a BC to "practice" herd sheep. The injury to the animal may make it more inhumane, but if the pig is killed and eaten afterward then I don't see it as being much different that letting a BC "practice" on a herd of sheep.

    It would be hard for me to let one of my loved (canine) family members put themselves in harms way like in that video, but once I saw how much they loved to do it I think I'd change my mindset pretty quickly.

    JMHO

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    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    Just to chime in a bit. One thing that you dont hear about too much is how strong the skin is on a grown hog like the pnes in the video. Hogs develope a layer of skin around their shoulders and breast that act as a shield. This is developed as the hog grows and fights with other hogs. Its actually a thick layer of calas and these things can soak up multiple rounds from a 300 win mag pushing 180 grn bullets. I have personally seen a hog shot 5 times with big bore rifles and not show a drop of blood.

    What happens is when a bullet enters the thick "shield" of a hog, the wound closes on top of its self and keeps the hog from loosing blood. So even when a dog latches onto a hog, the tear and breaks to the skin is minimal unless you start getting multiple dogs biting and pulling over a period of time. Taro latched onto my boar really good yesterday and all it did was give the boar a small scratch on his shoulder. And Taro was not playing around, he was pissed that the boar charged him and I saw his really angry side.

    So if a large bullet traveling at almost 3000fps hits a 200 lb hog at about 100 yards and that doesn't stop a hog right away, I cant see the teeth on a NK or any dog doing too much damage on a grown pig. Some of us who use dogs to hunt get tons of crap from people who view this method of take as barbaric or inhumane but these people also need to see the reality of hunting pigs with dogs. Like Dave said its not much different then herding sheep or cattle.

    I'm more of a bay dog guy cause I really dont want my dogs to get hurt but at times having a dog that can stop a pig from running miles and miles really helps and for that I would LOVE to own one of those Kishus and I hope Taro grows to have that much drive!Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
    Post edited by shishiinu at 2010-06-26 22:25:50
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    For Jindos, I've seen pics/videos with ~ 3 dogs pile onto the front of a small to medium size boar grabbing the ears, the cheeks, or side of snout (snouts are really long for some Korean boars), but for the larger boars, they bite the more sensitive rear, causing the boar to sit down and stop. Is that about the same with the NK?

    Here's a pic of a pack of Jindos in Korea. These are not actually dedicated hunting dogs but were trail dogs that happened to meet up with a boar during a hike.
    image
    Post edited by ayk at 2010-06-27 01:24:05
  • Wauw, I'm totally amazed by those dogs' courage and prey drive! They are VERY impressive. Growing up I watched the Ginga Nagareboshi Gin animes, and I didn't think the dogs actually fought like that for real (you know most entertainment is exaggerated) but that was awesome! I would never have the guts to hunt like that with my own dog - I'd be chewing all my nail off, worrying about my baby getting hurt! :oP Plus, I do not have the ability to kill anything, so I'd be a pretty lousy hunter! LOLTanja
    ... all the way from hillbilly Denmark ;)
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5510
    Interesting! Reminds me of a few pictures I saw a few weeks ago of Patterdales hunting / killing Racoons. It was a very similar style, rolling, biting, very direct attack & fully on the offensive.

    Thanks for the vid! :) ~
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • KevinKevin
    Posts: 346
    Patterdales are a lot of dog in a small package. They have a reputation for being horrible housedogs--think JRTs on steroids and meaner than sin.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    Yes, a JRT on a 48 hour crack high. First time I met one I feared for my own life and my unborn children and had nightmares the same night.Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • dlrobertsdlroberts
    Posts: 6552
    LOL. Coming from you Gen that's saying a LOT!
    dlrobertsdlroberts
    Dave, proudly owned by Joey (Shiba Inu), Tyson (Kai Ken), and PRG's Mason Julien McDieserton III, a.k.a. Diesel (Labrador Retriever).
    "My opinion may have changed, but not the fact that I'm right"
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • KevinKevin
    Posts: 346
    That's easily the funniest comment I've ever read on this forum.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    Seriously those little grimlins are spawns of satan. But really cool coon dogs. I think I would be too scared to own one.Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1671
    TheWalrus you state: "I know in Australia many hunters will train their dogs to catch on command, and let go on command. In Japan I've never seen this. I'm attempting to train my dogs to do just that, but it's not easy."

    ---Do you have any info on how the Australians are training this. Also, I was curious if there is an update on your training as well, and how it is going as far as calling dogs off and letting go of a prized kill? Release on command is fine (dummies), UNTIL the dog has the actual quarry (small enough to carry) and is completely jazzed up. Is there a technique you can share in regard to getting a release with Nihons without inducing a potential sparring session? I have heard of some people saving bits and bites off of a previous hunt and using that to reward or trade to get release for future drops.

    Snf
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3448
    Not that I have much to offer for NK on big game, but with Farrah (Shiba), I have to trade her when it is an animal that she has. We have been working the "out" command since I got her, and she did it perfectly during her hunting evaluation with a dead pidgeon. I used training dumbbells to teach this for Flyball to correct her habit of running off with the tennis ball where she had to deliver it into my open palm, but now I use a sock stuffed with pheasant wings as her new reward for when she brings me the bumper. For her, tugging that Is the reward. Definitely not the same thing, and I'm curious also to learn of how this could work for big game NK.
    Hokusei Kashinoki Hokkaido and Shiba Inu
    masakadoshiba@hotmail.com
    www.masakadoshiba@wordpress.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1617
    I don't have any info on how that training is done down under, but I know that plenty of the hunters use e-collars to teach dogs not to chase stock and roo's. It's possible that they use the collars somewhere in there, dunno.

    I haven't had too much trouble with my dogs. If I ask for it, they'll give it to me, and that goes for anything. I never try to 'catch' my dogs or engage in tug of war with them over items, as I never want to instill the idea that they should ever run from me or keep things from me, in play or otherwise. A dog that finds something new and fun for the first time ie a small animal, will be loathe to give it up of course.

    From when they're pups, I do a lot of recall work with my dogs, so when they've got something I want, I'll call them over. I may play with them a bit, give them a scratch etc to create the illusion that I'm not calling them over to take something away. While they're there, I'll slip my fingers through their collar and take a closer look at what they've got. If I want it, I give them the 'drop' command. This way I set up my dog so that they do not connect being called over with losing their prize, and they cannot run off with the prize either, so I'm going to win 100% of the time. After I've taken it away, I'll usually give them something else, or play with them a bit. I mix it up a lot with pups, sometimes I'll call them over and do the whole chain up to looking at the item, and tell them 'okay' and let them have it. Sometimes I'll have them drop it, then give it back to them. The NK are damn smart, and the last thing I ever want to do is to teach them that a behavior I don't like, leads to fun for them. I like to show them through experience that things that I like doing, and doing them with me are the funnest. If I'm not interested in it, then it's probably not actually very fun, and if I'm upset about something, it's probably because it's dangerous.
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1671
    TheWalrus writes: A dog that finds something new and fun for the first time ie a small animal, will be loathe to give it up of course. I may play with them a bit, give them a scratch etc to create the illusion that I'm not calling them over to take something away.

    Well, yep it seems so.... creating the illusion didn't go so well with on my part, he saw right through that.

    To explain the context and reason this came up:

    Basically yesterday (right before we were to leave for fly ball) we had an unexpected issue or should say unexpected visitor in our yard (ground hog). I did not see it and let the dogs out the back door ......the shibas worked as a pair my female knocked it back but it was close to her size so she dropped it due to the weight and squirming about....and my male dove in and dispatched it coming from the other side. However, he took off with the prize and spent approx 30 min running around with it. He knows drop, and did drop on command but picked it back up immediately once I neared and would not bring to hand. I had nothing of greater value to offer. Lindsay, I am afraid a wing in a sock (which I do have but did not think to try) would not cut it though, particularly against a blood soaked chubby ground hog that had some flop to it : /.

    As far as collar catch that Walrus suggest. I am able to loop a finger through his collar in every other situation, but this time, for the first time I was not able to as he blew me off by backing up doing a twist and attempting to nip in protest worried I was going to take his bloody "precious" when I got within hands reach. (We did not play tug ....more about mental tug of war.... I was wise enough not attempt to pry it away.) Given that he was being a booger about it all, I finally got a slip lead and flopped it over his head and moved him away leaving the carass in the grass. I had called my female away earlier and she came in the house no problem once the thing was dead. However, my male was not going cooperate willingly whether the creature was dead or not.

    Anyway, it isn't something that normally happens and my male certainly has not had any lack of training so I was a slightly surprised how stinking long it took to get things worked out.
    Does anyone else's dog remain in hyper vigilance after hunting is over?? If so what do you do about it?

    [Edit-Update]: Things are going well two days after. I guess it takes a couple of days for things to settle and effects of adrenaline to wear off. All dogs are behaving and getting along fine. So it is just a matter of keeping them calm to cool off it seems. It was interesting (although a bit unexpected) to see the Shibas manage the small game in/by cooperative work as seen as the Kishu and Kai when they come into the prey. Kishu in the videos are tenacious and I can see even the the smaller dogs if they are bold, basically act in the same manner.

    Snf





    Post edited by StaticNfuzz at 2012-05-28 11:25:50
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3448
    Lol, precious. What naughty dogs for not listening but good puppies for the solid teamwork, and hooray for flyballing with your Shibas. Farrah stays keyed up for a while after she finds moles or birds, but will still bring me what she has. It's the garbage and useless random pieces of plastic she finds that she won't surrender!

    Long line training with the retrieves maybe? It's probably a good thing that boars and deer are too heavy to run away with.
    Hokusei Kashinoki Hokkaido and Shiba Inu
    masakadoshiba@hotmail.com
    www.masakadoshiba@wordpress.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
    Post edited by lindsayt at 2012-05-26 16:30:43

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