Is this "primitive?"

SangmortSangmort
edited September 2008 in Kai Ken (甲斐犬)
Hey all, hope everyone is doing well; dogs, cats, humans, & all those inbetween :)

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Ok, so I think somewhere in the back of my mind, heart, & soul, I'm really loving the Kai. They're 2nd on my list, after a Shika. SO as always, I've been looking at pictures... >D Anyways, we always talk about the "primitiveness" that we like, as far as the Nihon Ken's personalities go...& Brad is always talking about the Primitiveness in the Kai's physical features.

So here are some of my favorite Kai's off of Classy Kennel's website, this is the particular head shape & face structure I would love to have in my own Kai...& I was wondering...is this primitive? lol Or am I loving the less-primitive type Kais? ;p

My favorite:
image
image
image
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Also...cany anyone tell if a kai pup has these features? I SO cannot tell lol They all look like cute little balls of black fluff to me :)

&...Am I right in assuming Classy Kennels is a good kennel? :o ~
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Comments

  • asiaasia
    edited November -1
    osy - you read my mind! I have the same questions! (though kai's are 1st on my list) :)
  • SangmortSangmort
    edited September 2008
    Good to know I'm not the only one that's confused :D!

    It's funny, as when I first discovered the 6 japanese breeds, [ or 5 rather, as I'd know of the akita since I was little ] the Kai used to be my least favorite, but it's slowly moving up through the ranks. I don't think they'll ever pass my love for the Shikoku...but they're pretty close to tying for first place lol ~
  • asiaasia
    edited November -1
    The kai has always been my first, though after joining this forum it is no longer my only!
  • okironokiron
    edited November -1
    When it comes to kais I have my mind set as "if it looks like Kona, it's primitive" and visa versa lol.

    Osy, looking at pictures of the dogs you want just makes the wait so much harder *pouts*
  • SangmortSangmort
    edited November -1
    Sorry Rina!

    I just try to comfort myself by looking at pictures...

    I think it's like slow, painful torture...but I'm so addicted to it D: ~
  • okironokiron
    edited November -1
    Oh and I forgot to mention, that's where Brad got Kona and I believe 1 or 2 other members got their kais as well so Classy Kennel is definitely a good breeder :)
  • SangmortSangmort
    edited November -1
    Oh! Thanks Rina, that's good to hear. I remember reading where Brad got Kona a few months ago...but couldn't remember which kennel it was. :) [ There are only 2 other Kai breeder's I've found...but the Classy Kennels pups have more of the look I love...& more brindling ] ~
  • RomiRomi
    edited September 2008
    It hard to say from pics...but I think the first pic with the 2 Kai ken have amazing heads and look very primitive to me. The 3rd and last pic don't look as primitive. The head shapes also depend on sex. Female kai kens have smaller heads and more of a stop. Males have a shorter stop, which looks more primitive.

    Brad is like the king in head shapes for Kai Ken, so im sure he'll bounce on here soon and give his opinion...lets see if he agree's with me!

    If you are interested in getting a Kai - definately get it from Classy. Brad mentioned she has the best bloodlines. Kelly and Jaime also got their pups from her.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited November -1
    Well, I think Romi did a great job answering your question(s).

    YES - you can tell a more primitive head shape when comparing puppies. A puppy's head, with a more primitive shape, will have more of a short, blunted, wedge shape.

    As for the pics above, I would say all those Kai are relatively primitive in "type".

    The first pic, IMO, are of the best looking Kai ever bred in America. They are a breeding pair that Marian bred that went to Hungary, to a Akita Inu breeder. The dog on the left in that pic was sired by Daiichi [who is Kona's grandfather]. The female on the right was sired by either Tomo or Taka. That pic does a great job of showing 2 very nice primitive "type" Kai and also shows the difference between male and female head shapes.

    The 2nd to last pic looks just like Kona.

    The last pic is of a cute little female, she has a relatively primitive type.

    Hope that helps.

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  • SangmortSangmort
    edited September 2008
    Thanks for the answers guys! I think I have a better understanding now for the adult Kai...


    Oh, but one more question...what do you mean by "Wedge shape" Sorry for the questions, still confused about that part...I can't really think of what a wedge shape means let alone as it applies to a head lol *goes to look up Kona puppy pictures*


    Brad! The first image is my absolute favorite also, I wouldn't mind paying a small fortune if I knew I could get one of their puppies :) [ Just SO beautiful! I mean, I'm in awe every time I look at that picture... ]

    I think I like the head-shape of the male kai ken...they look all together more "masculine" :)~
  • RomiRomi
    edited November -1
    Here is an example pic I found, to show wedge shape :)
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited November -1
    Good find Romi!

    I just made this to help:
  • SangmortSangmort
    edited November -1
    OK! Thanks guys, that was a big help! <3 ~
  • asiaasia
    edited November -1
    That is a great help!! Thanks!
  • budweiser82684budweiser82684
    edited November -1
    Ive heard some bad things about classy kennels
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited November -1
    Have you heard anything good about any of the Kai breeders in the states?
  • tobyshibatobyshiba
    edited November -1
    The only reason I was 'wary' with Classy Kennels -- their website is totally unorganized and rather messy. If they took the time to hire someone to make them a better website, it might make them look a little more professional. I always get so lost looking at that website.
  • RomiRomi
    edited November -1
    There are a lot of pro's and con's for all breeders, no breeder is perfect. I've never met a breeder who I was totally impressed with how they run things.

    I don't think real reputable breeders care too much about advrertising and making websites. They are too busy with their dogs. Most of the time, they get found by word of mouth.
  • budweiser82684budweiser82684
    edited November -1
    Well I heard a lot of her dogs end up in rescue so that shows she really doesnt care much about the dogs. I can handle some things opposed to others I think that is pretty irresponsible I was just letting them know so they can compare with other breeders and make a logical choice.
  • tobyshibatobyshiba
    edited September 2008
    I'm just saying, normally one would take much pride in their dogs, to incorporate a nice website. If I was a breeder and I made a website, i'd make sure that it was professional looking. But, that might just be my opinions. I know not everyone has the time to work on a site, but coming from an artist's eye/perspective, I just find it not a very appealing site to look at.

    Doesn't mean the dogs aren't appealing. But, when I see a cluttered/messy website, I automatically assume the breeders have the same mindset.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited September 2008
    *putting my Admin hat on*

    I would prefer we refrain from spreading hearsay and giving generalized non-descriptive statements about any organization, breeder, or person on this forum - especially a fellow forum member.

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  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    edited November -1
    I second Romi's opinion. I also have yet to find a breeder that I was 100% impressed with. There always seems to be a little something that I don't like, but I'm not perfect either :P
  • SangmortSangmort
    edited September 2008
    Just wanted to say...as someone who has done web design for years upon years, as Brad knows, I too find the importance of a very nice, organized website. Aesthetically pleasing. However, & this is a big one, the really crappy breeder I almost got my pup from had the MOST beautiful website. It was amazing, & this is the trap I really fell into when I picked her. [ seriously, I won't post the link here, but if anyone wants it feel free to e-mail me, or I'll whisper it to you ] So, I've learned my lesson...sometimes the appearance can pull you in, but a really nicely designed site can also be a disguise for a poor breeding program :)

    Just my .02 cents :) <3 ~
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    edited November -1
    good point, Osy. I've seen that alot as well.
  • SangmortSangmort
    edited November -1
    Id hate to dig up a dead thread, but can anyone point out to me which Kai Puppies have the primitive head shape? I can distinguish in the adults, but it's SO hard for me in the pups :o I think I can't see past the cuteness haha :)~
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    edited November -1
    do they have to mate a cream kai to a black one to get the Maverick-esq brindling?
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited November -1
    Jen - there are 3 brindle colors in Kai-Ken: Aka-tora [red brindle], Kuro-tora [black brindle], and Chu-tora [mix red/black]. Maverick is a Aka-tora, you can get an Aka-tora from breeding two Kuro-tora together. It has more to do with pedigree than it does the actual color of the breeders. I have a hard time telling what a Chu-tora is. The answer to your question is No. The AKC recognizes the cream Kai, but I dunno that they are recognized anywhere else.

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    Osy - It is really hard to tell with puppies, so it is harder to tell when only looking at a picture. Here is my opinion:

    More primitive:
    image

    Less primitive:
    image

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  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited November -1
    Jen:

    Aka-tora
    image

    Kuro-tora
    image

    Chu-tora [maybe?]:
    image


    Shigeru may be able to guide us on this...

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  • ShikokuSpiritShikokuSpirit
    edited November -1
    This reminds me...I still have some Kai Ken photos to upload from last year's Nippo show. There weren't very many entries but perhaps you all will be interested in seeing them?
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    edited November -1
    I still get awfully confused on how a breeder can produce a certain marking... but I guess it makes sense. The Aka-Tora gets my undivided attention every time. It is so beautiful! The other three markings are just as nice, but theres something about that fiery pattern!

    Corina - heck yes!!!!
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