Nihon Ken and SSA ( & breed match ? )

edited July 2013 in General
Hi there.
I am looking to add a pup within the next year. I've been looking into Kai and Akitas mostly.
My problem is that I get really worried about same sex aggression. I have a male dog, and would like to also add a male dog. Now, in other breeds like the GSD, same sex aggression is usually genetic, it is prevalent in certain lines.

I've contacted a few Akita breeders and they act like I'm crazy. Like Akitas can ONLY exist in opposite sex pairs. I understand that a lot of them don't want to say "Told you so" or possibly have to take the pup back when it crops up as they mature.

A lot of you have multiple dog homes, how do your Nihon Ken do with your dogs (and others?)



Also, just throwing this out here to see if anyone can give me their expert opinion on if I should have a NK..
I am looking for an athletic dog. Doesn't have to be Border Collie crazy or anything, but a dog that likes being out a lot. At the same time, one who can completely relax at home and isn't always looking for something to do. A dog that isn't offended easily, and recovers well. Friendliness is wonderful, being aloof doesn't bother me one bit, he doesn't have to love other dogs or people but should be able to ignore them (with training), but fear or aggression towards dogs / people is a no-no.

I have a 3 year old male Husky / GSD mix, and go hiking with my friend's dogs a lot, as well as encountering many dogs and people on trails, which is why I find it really important that my new pup can join in without any quarrels.
I also intend to add another dog down the line, so that I have 3 in my pack, while fostering dogs occasionally.

Thank you. C:

Comments

  • edited July 2013
    I manage a house full of hormonal, intact bitches. It CAN be done. Obviously, unless the breeders you spoke to only have two dogs or they have invented all new genders for their dogs... they are also capable of managing same-sex dogs in one home. Its a little silly IMO to say its impossible or act like someone is crazy for wanting to try it. After all, they're doing that exact same thing. That said, they are living daily with the first hand experience managing those dogs. If they're so adamant that its a terrible idea and that the puppies they produce cannot get along with other dogs, I would believe them. They know their dogs and what its like to live with them. They are looking out for you, and don't want to wish upon you the stress and drama they must live with daily.

    At present there are 10 Akitas in my house. Four are mature adults, one is a juvenile, and five are seven-week-old puppies. One adult is male, two puppies are male; the rest female. One adult is spayed; the rest intact. The puppies have their own room, but all of the others -- including momma -- sleep in our bedroom at night just inches apart from each other. They eat separately but within line of sight of one another in their kennels. They run and play loose together in the backyard, although not if we're out of the house and of course not when a bitch is in heat. Additionally, all of my older dogs have visited polite, spayed dogs belonging to my friends at haphazard intervals for socialization and play nicely with them at every visit.

    Right now my situation is pretty good, but I've had a taste of the bad times. When Gryphon and Gojira came into heat at the same time for the first time since Gojira was full grown, Gryphon started acting really testy with Gojira. Gojira had just started going through the "hardening" phase of early adulthood; she was no longer a happy easygoing puppy who likes everyone, and she didn't appreciate Gryphon's surly attitude. Both being in heat just made matters worse. They had fights. Nothing bad enough to go to the hospital, but it really stressed us out. They had to be kept separate all the time and would growl at each other through the sliding glass door. Gojira even leaned how to push the door open if it was unlocked, and charged into the house to attack Gryphon once. Since then we always keep it locked, and if there's any issue at doorways we walk around the house to go into the backyard. One fight occurring literally between my husband's legs as he was trying to take Gryphon her dinner was enough.

    But it didn't stop when the girls came out of heat... and then Gryphon started acting really sick. We took her to the vet, who diagnosed her with closed pyometra. She had an emergency spay to save her life, but had to stay quiet while she recovered from surgery. The dogs remained separate during this time which further increased excitement and reactivity at doorways. It was months after Gryphon's recovery when they got along again. We realized that total isolation was contributing to the issues, and that seeing each other and sleeping next to each other (in crates) every day helped desensitize them, mend wounds, and bury hatchets.

    Still... any time that something exciting happened, there was a chance that Gojira would redirect onto Gryphon. Never anything serious, we called these spats "arguing with teeth." We would break them up and once calmed down acted as though everything was normal. Even these arguments which were loud and scary but harmless were stressful to my husband. He worried constantly about the dogs fighting, and had a tendency to project his stress into the situation... often making it worse. Such things as tensing up and jerking on one of the dog's collars when the other dog walked by.

    In time we learned the best tactic is to distract the dogs and diffuse the situation with something positive but not too exciting they can focus on instead of each other. Now we don't ever need to put this knowledge to use, but I definitely feel more capable of handling fights than before. That said, NONE of these incidents were they actively trying to injure one another. There have been punctures and scrapes, even a couple that bled profusely, but these occurred by chance during the argument. Neither dog has gone for the throat or vital organs, nor bit down and tore flesh on purpose.

    I was stressed enough with the arguments... and would not want to live with dogs who were more intent on harming each other. The daily management of making sure they never, ever, ever get loose with one another is a nightmare. Knowing that a dog's life is on the line if you fuck up is even worse.
  • I have 3 Spayed females. All different breeds. A chihuahua, Shiba, and Kai. They all get along really well. I had" turf wars" between my Shiba and Kai that had to be broken up regularly for about a week, but otherwise they have been great. I also have a neutered male cat and they all love him.

    All my ladies sleep in their own kennels, but could sleep together. They eat in their kennels as well because I have one that is food aggressive. That was probably my fault, though. I let her eat with 3 cats when she was a puppy and one of the cats was feral. I was young and very stupid when I got her.

    My parents also have 2 male chihuahuas. That's a breed known for being grouchy. They don't have any problem with the boys and when my chi visits, no problems. They treat her the same as they treat each other, which is very sweet and snuggly.

    Maybe I got lucky with mine, but that is my personal experience. @poeticdragon has more experience and is a better person to ask, but I wanted to chip in my two cents that it can be done and with different breeds.
  • Well with the right dogs it can be easy. So long as I feed the dogs separately (I have a couple who are jealous about food and a couple who are rude assholes and will steal from the others') we have no issues. All the girls get along great. In general I think girls are more difficult than boys, especially if intact. After all, the term "bitchy" has its origins in reality. But I haven't honestly tried to have two adult males for any length of time.

    If you do decide to have an Akita or any breed known for same-gender issues, I definitely recommend both animals be spayed/neutered. It will make your life so much easier. Both Gryphon and Gojira (who was spayed later) mellowed out noticably afterwards.
  • I have a female Kai and Shiba and they get into periodic spats. I don't crate either of them and let them free roam. I feed them in different rooms. The spats come from chewies, if one is stolen from the other, or if Sachi (my almost 2 year old kai) plays with Nicky (my 14ish mostly blind shiba) too hard or when she isn't prepared for it. They never have chewies unattended or have food unattended. If they do get in a spat and they seem to still be tense I will divide the house with a baby gate so they can have some down time but still chill next to each other if they want (its a formality, Sachi can hop it and Nicky just hulks through it). Outside of those incidents they are close buds and in situations where they are nervous they act as one dog. Kais are amazing peacemakers as dogs in my opinion and the Kai shiba combination works very well though several others have it as well and have had it longer than I have and could tell you more.

    I don't know much about akitas (and if you are looking at AA or JA makes a difference as well) but Kais are awesome dogs, high energy, high prey drive outside. Mine is fairly passive inside, she would rather be outside but she can become highly destructive if allowed to get bored. She will never just stare at you for hours on BC style watching your every move, but she will at somepoint come to you and encourage you to do something with her.

    I think this gives a fairly good, brief, overview: http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/3169/are-you-thinking-about-getting-a-nihon-ken/p1
  • One of the admins Dave (he's not on here much right now, just got married) has three males; a Shiba, a Kai, and a Lab. They get on great. With the exception of dealing with bitches in heat and intact males competing, most of same sex aggression talk is hype. I have two females and a male. And had just the two females for some time, and never any trouble.

    You'll be fine.
  • not every dog is the same.............
  • edited July 2013
    There's something up with many Akita breeders, too, like they really believe the hype. When I went to get my Akita, a lot of breeders wouldn't sell to me because I had Shibas. And they all insisted on the same sex issue.

    My AA is quite happy living with a female Shiba (now gone) and a male Kai Ken, though he doesn't get along with the male Shiba. It's individual dogs. All his dog friends have been other neutered males, too (mostly simply because more people I know have male dogs than females).

    And I still hear it all the time--you have to have male/female pairs, blah blah blah. I haven't believed it since my female Shiba nearly killed my male Shiba.
  • edited July 2013
    In my experience, the difference is marginal. There are more important factors as to whether two dogs will get along, like their disposition, socialization, and training. I bet if you went through this forum and did a tally of posts where people are concerned about dog-dog aggression, you'd find that there's very little correlation to sex. I haven't done it, and I can't link to any study, but my impression is that the sex of the dogs is dwarfed by other factors. I certainly don't see any clear pattern, other than that the dogs who have the most issues tend to be poorly-bred and/or have had a bad start to life (eg, pet store/puppy mill dogs have the most problems).

    I think there's a confirmation bias with people who believe in same-sex aggression. Every time they hear of two female or to male dogs fighting, they attribute it to same-sex aggression. Every time they hear about opposite-sex dogs fighting, they just dismiss it as being attributed to some other factor.

    Intact dogs are a different matter. It's doable, you just have to be mindful. Bitches go into heat and act different (and so do the dogs around them), no doubt about it. Although most pet owners neuter their animals, so it shouldn't be an issue.

    Sometimes I wonder if stuff like this is an excuse for producing an aggressive animal. "Well, OF COURSE that dog became aggressive, everyone knows akitas can't be kept in same-sex pairs." Again, this is confirmation bias, probably accompanied with an inability or unwillingness to see the real issues. I think you're producing dogs that honestly can't live with other dogs of the same sex under any circumstance, then you're doing it wrong. It's not like it's in the breed standard.
  • edited July 2013
    As I type this I have 3 male Kai Ken (Nio, Kona, Akashi), one male Caucasian Ovcharka, one male Boz Shepherd, and a baby male Dogo Argentino - all intact - outside with a lactating female Kai Ken (Kumi), an intact female Tosa Inu, a intact female Boerboel, a spayed Shikoku Ken (Ahi), and an intact West Siberian Laika female (Anya)...

    All the girls are fine with the girls, and all the boys are fine with the boys, and they are all fine with each other. We also have 3 females in heat right now, so the boys are a little extra "amped". No issues.

    Now, if I were to let Jingu out with the Kai boys and Taskin - it would go bad. Or if I let Kishin out right now with the Nio and Kona (he's fine with Akashi), that too would go bad. They're all males - one could claim that's the reason why they don't get along with the others... but how would one explain the other 6 males who are fine with one another?

    Then there is Ike (intact male WSL), who would do ok with Jingu and Taskin but not Kishin or the Kai boys - Ike treats Luytiy like a bear and tries to tree him, so they're never together either.

    It's all about the individual dog. Kishin is a bully and likes to play too hard for the Kai and Taskin - which tips into a disagreement, while Jingu is afraid of Taskin and so acts defensive with him - which causes Taskin to slip into "fight mode".
  • In my experience, the difference is marginal. There are more important factors as to whether two dogs will get along, like their disposition, socialization, and training. I bet if you went through this forum and did a tally of posts where people are concerned about dog-dog aggression, you'd find that there's very little correlation to sex. I haven't done it, and I can't link to any study, but my impression is that the sex of the dogs is dwarfed by other factors. I certainly don't see any clear pattern, other than that the dogs who have the most issues tend to be poorly-bred and/or have had a bad start to life (eg, pet store/puppy mill dogs have the most problems).

    I think there's a confirmation bias with people who believe in same-sex aggression. Every time they hear of two female or to male dogs fighting, they attribute it to same-sex aggression. Every time they hear about opposite-sex dogs fighting, they just dismiss it as being attributed to some other factor.

    Intact dogs are a different matter. It's doable, you just have to be mindful. Bitches go into heat and act different (and so do the dogs around them), no doubt about it. Although most pet owners neuter their animals, so it shouldn't be an issue.

    Sometimes I wonder if stuff like this is an excuse for producing an aggressive animal. "Well, OF COURSE that dog became aggressive, everyone knows akitas can't be kept in same-sex pairs." Again, this is confirmation bias, probably accompanied with an inability or unwillingness to see the real issues. I think you're producing dogs that honestly can't live with other dogs of the same sex under any circumstance, then you're doing it wrong. It's not like it's in the breed standard.
    This is what I thought. When I was looking for an AA breeder, if they told me akitas can never be with Shibas, or if they said they can never be in same sex pairs, I figured I learned something about their dogs, and that they probably weren't the people I wanted to get a dog from. It was part of my process of choosing (I also went to dog shows and watched to see which dogs from which breeders seemed aggressive in the ring, because I figured if a well-trained show dog was still showing some aggression, this was likely not going to be a dog producing puppies I was interested anyway.

    So yeah, all about the individual dogs!
  • I agree with Lisa. One thing I looked at with Shiba breeders was how they seemed to run their dogs together. The more of them that they could just let mingle no problem, the better I liked the program. So far (knock on wood), it's worked out. Zim is 19 months old and still seems to like every dog he meets.

    That said, I have noticed he seems to love female dogs. It's not that he dislikes males or anything, but his favorite playmates tend to be females. That said, that could also just be that it tends to be that people I know who have dogs have female dogs and Zim seems to attach most to dogs he has individual playdates with.
  • This is what I thought. When I was looking for an AA breeder, if they told me akitas can never be with Shibas, or if they said they can never be in same sex pairs, I figured I learned something about their dogs, and that they probably weren't the people I wanted to get a dog from.
    That's what I was trying to imply but worded much better, thanks.
  • edited July 2013
    Doesn't have to be Border Collie crazy or anything, but a dog that likes being out a lot. At the same time, one who can completely relax at home and isn't always looking for something to do. A dog that isn't offended easily, and recovers well. Friendliness is wonderful, being aloof doesn't bother me one bit, he doesn't have to love other dogs or people but should be able to ignore them (with training), but fear or aggression towards dogs / people is a no-no.


    @omgtain..........what ever breed you want to add to your home, and what ever the opinions of the members may be, you will never know the things you have asked in your post. Some dogs get a long fine, others don t. Every dog is different, male or female, GSD or Shiba. You can pick a pup, but you will never know that the dog will show agression towards humans or other dogs. If you socialize the dog properly, it can help. But there always will be a moment that dogs in the same house will try to see who is in charge....female or male, GSD or whatever breed.......a friend of mine has 3 female dogs, they get a long fine.......they surely had their arguments in the past....
    and sometimes 2 males constanly attack each other to see who is the boss, a fight can start with no reason at all.....like I said earlier, no dog is the same..... it has nothing to do with a specific breed JMO
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