yay I got a new puppy! tuff introduction ahead.

edited March 2015 in General
I read the beginning of this thread.http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/826/introducing-new-dogs-and-living-in-a-multi-dog-household/p1

I am brushing up on introductions. I have a new JA coming from risingsun kensha. The puppy is Ares brothers. Not sure if you all remember me and Ares my JA whos line is from Poland. He came from Florida. Here is a Short history. I got Ares at 13 weeks old I had a Shiba that was a year old. So I have that experience for an introduction. Then when Ares got diagnosed with bone marrow cancer at around 2 years old I decided to buy an AA. I wanted him to know Ares. I named the AA kenji(means second healthy son) and the Shiba is Tachi. So I got to introduce. My AA kenji to a Shiba and my JA Ares. (All males) Kenji was also 13 weeks old. After a couple incidents Tachi was removed from the home. He could not be trusted at all. Ares and Kenji got along well and I didnt have many issues. I did however follow most the advise from the above thread. Kenji (AA) is now 2 years old he is not fixed yet because I read that early neuter may have caused Ares bone marrow cancer. Plus they get bigger heads and wider chests and stay a bit shorter. So not fixed. Very balanced Kenji shows great restraint with Tachi (shiba) during disagreements. When Kenji played with Ares at 2yrs old Ares at 4 years old and getting very weak. Kenji would knowing he was alpha submit to Ares during play. But he would disagree with Ares if Ares bit his neck to hard. They had a wonderful relationship. I should point out I am in past tense cuz Ares is now gone....

So in updating my breeder of Ares status. I found out that they had a puppy the biggest one in the litter. They said it was from Ares parents. Its Ares brother! It had been a few days since I had to put Ares down and I had been preparing for is death for two years. I said to my wife. I have sonething to tell you. But i dont want you to tell me what to do. She laughed. I said this cuz we agreed not to get another dog after Ares. I showed the picture to my wife. I pointed the phone to her I said.( my voice cracked and tears rolled down my face) He is Ares Brother, same parents. She grabbed the phone out of my hand and turned away from me. She didnt want me to see her face. She hugged the phone close to her chest and looked down at the picture for a bit. Composed herself then handed me the phone and shut herself into the bathroom. (She had to go potty) ya right. Anyways I had bought the puppy buy dinner time. I named him Mars cuz its the closest I could get to Ares God of War. So Mars is going to arrive on the 22nd of march. He will be 9 weeks old.

So now your up to date. I plan to post my experience with this introduction as it plays out. So I can draw from the knowledge of this group as things unfold. I have planned ahead. Tachi (shiba) will be staying at my brothers house for a least 3 months. I dont want him to scare Mars (puppy) physically or mentally during this time in his life. Cuz I know how ruthless my shiba is. I plan to wait until Mars can move with agility and has some what I like to call sword fighting skills. Before he get any uncaged time with Tachi.
«13456

Comments

  • edited March 2015
    photo 422771_343549122346315_145996703_n.jpgphoto received_727788100652865.jpegimg src="photo received_727788050652870.jpeg" />
    photo FB_IMG_1424913761960.jpg

    photo 20140803_152453.jpg
  • Some pictures for you.
  • edited March 2015
    here is the video of Kenji (AA) and Mars (JA) for their first meeting. Things didnt go as well as some videos I have seen. I didn't keep a loose leash. Kenji was really excited. But I consider it successful. If first link dont work this one should.

    sorry for the sideways video and shaky hands.
  • Cute puppy! Kenji does look very, very excited.
  • After that video we did another meeting in the yard. Which we didnt end up recording but we did get them off leash in our fenced yard for a few minutes. After that we went in the house.

    I kept the meetings short like that. I noticed kenji wasnt quite ready to make friends yet in this video. After a while I took them in the yard again. I slowly gained trust in Kenji. Soon they were playing and pouncing. I have been having trouble uploading to youtube. But I will get a video of them tomorrow if I can, to show progress. Tachi is still being kept separate. If Tachi stops growling at the baby gate meetings I might consider a muzzled meeting.
  • edited March 2015
    I am at work and not busy so I figured I would add some details. Tachi the Shiba made the puppy cry. It was my fault. I allowed the gate system to have a, weakness. I will take pictures later to show you. Tachi has an ear infection I need to get under control before he goes to my brothers house. But it should be noted that Tachi has shown a willingness to kill the puppy if given a chance. He had put a scar an Ares nose when Ares was 13 weeks and punctured Kenji just above the eye. So I know Tachi can not be trusted.

    Now about Kenji, he is pretty well balanced in my opinion. Kenji learned from his litter mates and the breeder did a great job socializing him. Then when he got to me at 13 weeks old. He was well behaved. Tachi was removed from the home for almost 3 months after he attack Kenji. Mean while my brother had circumstances that allowed me to take in his 2yr old Doberman.. Kenji learned many good play lessons from Roman the Doberman. Like how to take turns on who gets to win. Kenji has no issue with giving his belly and allowing neck bites. But as Roman taught him he will correct or disagree with his play mate if things get to ruff. Kenji has good body language he ask to play he shows I am just playing signals. Make no mistake though now Kenji is 2years old and he has been to the dog park less the a dozen times. Ares went to the park everyday for his first year of life. I decided that was not a good thing to do. Ares became very aggressive because of that park. Kenji is doing good last I took him to the park he still winded up getting aggressive with some rude dogs. Kenji is still ok with polite dogs. Which is why I rarely go to the park. The point is I know Kenji has a willingness to fight.

    Kenji also has food aggression with Tachi and he wont let Tachi eat from his bowl which is always out and always full. Tachi has his own bowl in his bed but still likes to steal Kenji's food. Kenji and Tachi will sometimes fight over a fresh bone. Kenji is used to getting his way now. But Tachi used to tell Kenji he couldn't eat and boss Kenji around. Kenji let Tachi be third in command till He reached about a year and a half. Then he gently as possible took 3rd position. Even as Ares got so weak he couldn't get up Kenji let him feal like he was still Alpha during play. Kenji would also share his food bowl and water bowl with Ares. Kenji knew he was alpha but didnt feel the need to rub it in Ares face. But since Tachi needs constantly reminded Kenji wont let him eat from his bowl. Of course they all know I am in charge. They all know when they fight I get angry with them.

    Yesterday Kenji told Mars the puppy he couldnt have the fresh bone I had given him. Kenji kind growled but didnt. It was a half a growl. Then bumped him kinda hard with his nose. I was right there as always and grabbed Kenji and disagreed with what he did. Then put Kenji in the kitchen with Tachi. I know that I need to slowly let Kenji do his thing. I know Kenji is trying to teach him his place in the pack. But I need to slowly let this happen I need to make sure Kenji loves him before I let Kenji correct him. I know some would advise me to not let him correct. I am the only one who should correct. But I have learned that if I slowly let them figure it out they will come to an agreement. They will decide who stands where in the pack. I know that if I let Kenji love the puppy like he loves Tachi then he will not hurt the puppy.
    Tachi will fight tooth and nail but Kenji will just control Tachi. Kenji has never drawn blood but he has made Tachi limp for a couple hours.

    I have learned that I must keep the new puppy separate unless I can watch close. This means no watching tv while the puppy is visiting Kenji. I remove anything Kenji finds valuable. There are several very old toys that Kenji has had since he was a puppy. Mars can have those Kenji dont care. Although most of those toys Tachi has taken ownership of and in the future will probably want to take them from Mars. I didnt get any time with the puppy today because of work. So the wife is house training him in my absence. Also this means Kenji can't visit him. This kind of separation and heavy supervision will be necessary for at least a year. But eventually they will be able to be left alone in the house.
  • edited March 2015
    photo 3-21-15 Mars first day home 034_1.jpg
  • A sneak peak at what can be accomplished with lots of patients.
  • This video is after Tachi came home i think Kenji was 5 months old. See he got better a, sword fighting. This is the age i need to get Mars to before i let him be in the same room with Tachi.
  • edited March 2015

    here is a video of them playing. I think this is the last post for Mars and Kenji. Their introduction was a complete success. I will post more when I finally introduce Tachi.
     
  • I forgot to show you my gate.



    This is how I plan to keep Tachi away from the puppy. Tachi gets let out with Kenji and so does Mars so Kenji gets to go out twice and I never leave the puppy lone with Kenji. Tachi only gets full run of the house if the puppy is in his bed. Kenji gets short visits with the puppy when Kenji shows any signs of irritation or he starts to claim something I remove him. I want all positive visits. The last thing I need is for Kenji to correct Mars and have Mars become fearful of Kenji. The vibe would affect the relationship long term. Mars is at an age where if something happens it might stick with him for life. It is very important that I am vigilant. Introductions are important. But you should know that fostering a good relationship takes a long time. As the owner it is my responsibility to make sure all visits and meetings end well. until he is 6 months old I will not leave him alone with Kenji or Tachi. I wanted to make this thread to show people that you can have two male Akita in the same home. I also wanted to show how much effort it takes. How time consuming it is. I wanted to be sure to let people who are considering doing this to know exactly what they are getting into.... This is the easy part. Even Tachi is not gonna be a challenge. Its just gonna take time for Mars to grow for that.

    But the real challenge will be when Mars hits 9 to 11 months old. When he starts to challenge Kenji. That is when you will hafta bring your A game. Cuz they are big and strong and you will hafta break them up before they hurt each other or scar each other. You will hafta figure out that happy medium between letting them go at it enough to figure out who is Alpha and stopping it before it goes to far.

    This is why its good to wait 2 years. Kenji is 2 he will be near 3 years old when Mars reaches 1 year old. So Kenji should be at an age where he dont feel the need to show how tuff he is. So it will be when Mars is 1.5 years old and things will be settled in. Mars and Kenji will have many agreements made by then. They will both understand the rules that they give each other. They will both love Tachi and be able to control his nasty attitude. I have a long road ahead of me.

    Just dont think that if you choose to do this it will be easy. You can not just throw these dogs together in the yard and say figure it out yourself. These are not labs. So think long and hard about the commitment you will have to have to do something like this. Last thing I wanted to do is make this look easy. I do have my wife to help when I work. So they will have human supervision at all times.
  • These post are time stamped so I thought I should tell readers that I have observed Kenji and Mars very closely. I have determined that not only will Kenji not kill the puppy he will also not hurt the puppy even over a valued bone. I must note that he does correct the puppy and he has made him wine once over a bone. Kenji is teaching the puppy to let him take his bone. Kenji will also let the puppy chew the bone. Kenji also corrects the puppy if he bites his pee pee. He is teaching the puppy to submit during play. He is also giving the puppy turn to be on top and win in play by giving his belly to the puppy. They share a water bowl. But I am not gonna push it yet on the food bowl. I put the muzzle on Tachi today and let him spent time with the puppy. I will take video next time I do it. Tachi is very submissive when he cant use his teeth. He let the puppy sniff him and he sniffed the puppy. Tachi still growled softly when the puppy sniffed his face. I dont think I am gonna need to use my brother's house. I will do several muzzled visits. Tachi will not be unmuzzled till Mars is very capable of self defense.
  • edited April 2015
    Here is a link to a video of Mars and Kenji playing a few hours ago.

    http://vid1147.photobucket.com/albums/o553/Tony_Gillette/Mobile Uploads/2015-04/20150426_151154.mp4
  • T_Dog- that's adorable. I hope that you value how nice that behavior is, from both of them. I saw the crazy angry thread, and Im not going to say anything like that here. But what you *know* you have here is two dogs with a great relationship. replacing the little guy rolls the dice on that again, and speaking as someone who keeps two males (separated) that don't get along, it is not to be underestimated just how often that is just the way it's going to be in dogs, in NK, and in Akitas specifically. You have a happy pack, there :) don't give that up.
  • You just made my eyes well up.
  • not only will Kenji not kill the puppy he will also not hurt the puppy even over a valued bone.

    They really are absolutely adorable together. I really like Mars' ears too! I want to rub them lol. You can watch Kenji's body language and how gentle he is with his mouthing, and that's a really valuable behavior between them that can't be trained or guaranteed. Kenji really loves his little brother :)

    @WrylyBrindle you said it!
  • It's been a while since I shared. I added another new puppy to the pack. I figured it would be just as hard or easy how ever you look at it. To introduce two at the same time. Mars was with us for a few weeks before we got Eiji. This video is some time later. One of Tachi ' s first visits in the yard. Un-muzzled and off leash. It really seems like a switch just flips and he accepts them. It's been a while also since I took this video. We still only let Tachi around the others when we are home. This video didn't just happen. We had many disagreements to manage. But very few of them were with Tachi off leash. Also what helped the most was giving the puppies time to grow and get agile enough to handle Tachi. Tachi also had to learn a couple lessons. Mars and Eiji had to basically teach Tachi that they were not push overs. Much the same way that Kenji did when he was young. Eiji is 7 months old now. We got him at 4 months old. So just as I had mapped out. Tachi is able to join into the pack after the puppies get big enough.

    So as far as the big dogs go. The meeting with Eiji went much like the one with Kenji and Mars. But I trusted Kenji much more. So the biggest challenge was getting the two puppies to become friends. When they first met they had several disagreements. When it came time to split them up. Kenji would get one and I would get the other. This happened several times. Kenji really helps me raise them. He teaches them how to get along. I could almost say it was me helping Kenji raise them and not the other way around.

    Watch "Mars Kenji Eiji and Tachi" on YouTube
  • Aw, they're all so cute!
  • photo 20150702_163844.jpg This is one of my Favorite pictures of Eiji.
  • Cute new pup! Did he come from the same breeder as Mars, your other JA male?
  • photo IMG_20151115_210053444_TOP.jpg This is my new "baby gate" they are now big enough to stand up on the old one and get at each other. They were also big enough to push right through the gate especially if they have a conversation that leads to lets fight while the gate divides them. Mars is 9 months and Eiji is 8 months. Kenji is 2.5 years ish. So I come home from the dog show. Eiji starts a conversation with Kenji Mars and Tachi. All of them in the kitchen block by the other baby gate. Eiji proceeds to tell each of them that he is the boss now. I watch the expression of each dog change as he barked it out to each of them. Needless to say my wife had to rush Eiji out the front door as it was getting obvious that the gate wouldn't hold much longer. The books talk about a change at 9 to 11 months. This is completely true. Not only have I built this door out of steel I have also upgraded the Kennels I had started to build. More pictures to come. Mars has decided he don't like Eiji at all and Kenji is OK with Eiji unless Eiji starts one of those conversations. I have bought muzzles. Pictures to come. Muzzles only buy me time to split them up. So I do not leave them alone and muzzled there is no muzzle that they can't get out of if they want. I am glad I documented this here. Cuz it shows that they were properly introduced and had several good socialized months together.
  • Omg. I scrolled this thread. I saw pictures of Ares. I still well up...
  • That is an impressive gate! I wish I had that when I fostered those LGD breed dogs. I had one Anatolian who could clear 6 foot fences like they were nothing. She and my Malamute got into it once because of a baby gate failure. This gate would have been so handy.
  • Here is the muzzle I got for my AA. I don't expect him to grow anymore. I will be getting two more as soon as I know the other two are full grown. http://www.dog-muzzles-by-breed.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=50&products_id=280 I could not find a better one then this. Kenji finds it very comfortable. He don't even try to get it off. He can drink water and pant. Mars wears Ares old Muzzle its a metal basket. When I have three of these leather ones training and exercise in them under supervision will be much safer.

    Kenji and Mars still get along and Eiji and Kenji still do OK. But Mars growls at Eiji when ever he gets to close unless Mars is Muzzled then his demeanor changes. Kenji and Mars are scheduled to get fixed in December. But I am having second thoughts about doing Mars so young. After all Ares died in part because of early neuter.

    Also worth noting is that ironically Tachi gets along with all of them. Mainly cuz he submits when he needs to. But when there is a disagreement with any of them and Tachi. It's kinda nice cuz the large dogs don't hurt him. They just subdue him. Knock on wood.
  • Mars in Ares muzzle photo IMG_20151118_151220289.jpg here is Mars in his muzzle. I want to get him one like Kenji has.
  • photo IMG_20151118_151156833.jpg here is Kenji in his Muzzle. I think the biggest mistake I make with the muzzle is how I separate the dogs. Grabbing their head only helps them get out of the muzzle. I have learned recently that having them in a harnesses with a leash attached is the safest way. I am also making a rule. No more then two dogs in the same room. I am going to figure out some anchors. That way is something happens I can grab a leash and pull one dog to anchor. Then grab the other dog and pull him out of the fight. You might wonder why so much trouble. Well its cuz I have read that leaving an Akita in the backyard van make him become mean. They want so badly to be in the house with me. They can't understand why they can't be together.
  • Maybe rehoming 1 of them before your management fails (it happens) and a severe fight occurs would be safer/better for everyone's well being. It has to be stressful and frustrating on the dogs to always be at each other's throats. What kind of training advice have you brought into the situation?
  • In addition to @lindsayt's questions, have you thought about how stressful it is to have a muzzle on for the dogs? Especially when tensions are high? Dogs count on being able to use their mouth to defend themselves and the inability to do so probably creates more stress and anxiety, which increases the chances of a fight happening.

    This sounds like an all around incredibly tense situation that is destined for catastrophic failure. I know you care deeply for your dogs, but living in constant fear and stress is not good for anyone in this situation, canine or human. :(
Sign In or Register to comment.