Long-haired Akitas

So I have a question for people: what's up with the long-haired Akitas? I know it is a fault for show (well, ok, I only looked up the Japanese standards, but I think it is for the AA's too). So why would breeders be purposefully breeding them, or is it just one of those things some breeders do but shouldn't do (like breeding for colors that aren't standard in other breeds, etc)?

Then I saw something that claimed the long-haired Akitas were less dog aggressive so that was why some people were introducing them into their breeding programs, but could that be true? Sounds odd to me.

I figure sometimes the long-haired ones might show up unintentionally, as a cream-colored Shiba may show up in litters (I don't know enough about genetics and breeding to know why that happens, though I know it does), but there isn't a reason to breed for it, is there?

How common are they?

anyway, I've come across them a couple of times now, mostly with breeders selling them for a lower price (no doubt because it is a fault), but was curious to hear what people knew about them, esp. if anyone knows if there is a history to them.....
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Comments

  • edited November -1
    Both Akita need to carry the long-coat gene to be able to produce a long coat. I do not know of anyone who is trying to breed them on purpose. My guess is that one of the two Akita involved have not been screened that is why moku(I think that is the term) show up.
  • edited November -1
    See the pictures of the long-haired Shibas on the Kawakami thread. These show up occasionally too.
  • edited November -1
    Thanks, this is what I was wondering....esp. if anyone was trying to breed them on purpose. I'm also wondering if a breeder has them regularly, does that suggest they are not breeding carefully?
  • edited March 2010




    JA




    Havent heard about anyone deliberately trying to breed them tho. Just happens from time to time from what i heard.
  • edited November -1
    If both akita carry the recessive gene that gives longcoat there will be affected puppies in the litter. It's classic genetics, 2 carriers having 4 puppies = 1 clear, 1 affected (longcoat) and 2 carriers.

    IMHO all that about better temperament is just a load of crap, how could doubling up on longcoat generate better temperament? I think it's just a matter of association, longcoat akitas are cutee and people tend to cuddle them more, thus they are better socialized and people draw the conclusion they have better temperament.

    A couple of years ago when I first studied this matter in detail I found some AA breeders in the US that were breeding longcoat akitas and were really proud about it. I can't remember who they are, I must check my archives.

    To my mind they are exactly like the rest, they are amazing dogs and deserve the best families an akita could have. But I don't think they should be allowed in the ring. The fluffy bear appearence is just not true to type. In Europe longcoat puppies are sold as pets at half the price of a show puppy. Prior to the breeding careful research is being done to see if that bitch or sire has given birth to long-coated puppies and if that is the case the breeder puts into balance the quality of the dog versus the possibility of giving birth to long-coated puppies - this is not desired, although it happens (in some kennels more than others). It's not common to test the dogs for longcoat. I'm still looking for a lab close enough to do the test.

    Oh, I forgot to add that sometimes when the puppy changes its hair the longcoat can be replaced by normal coat. My Angel was born in a litter with longcoat, that's why he's so furry. In general, whites have the worst fur, but his resembles the fur of a brindled akita. He was even furrier when he was a pup, but the longer hairs were replaced by shorter ones.
  • edited November -1
    IMHO FAULT SHMALT they are cute as hell.
  • MnVMnV
    edited November -1
    ZOMG, a Teddy Bear!
  • aykayk
    edited November -1
    Here's a page that explains long-hair appearance with pictures. It's for Malamutes, but the same info applies for Akitas.


    http://kwestmals.com/malcolorgeneticsCoatLength.html
  • edited November -1
    IMHO all that about better temperament is just a load of crap, how could doubling up on longcoat generate better temperament? I think it's just a matter of association, longcoat akitas are cutee and people tend to cuddle them more, thus they are better socialized and people draw the conclusion they have better temperament.

    What you say could be entirely true, and I know nothing about JA, but it is not out of the realm of genetic possibility that some traits are carried with other genetic characteristics. This happens in breeds all the time, even in those where both varieties are born in the same litter. I've talked to long-time Collie breeders who will tell you that the Smooth Collie is a different animal: more prey-driven, more active, more rambunctious than his more laid-back Lassie-type brother.
  • edited November -1
    If two genes are located close to each other on an allele, they're more likely to be handed down together. Think in humans how blonde hair usually goes with blue eyes. Although, there are plenty of brown-eyed blondes and blue-eyed brunettes.

    So, long coats might have a correlation with better temperaments, but if all evidence is anecdotal, it may very well be fabricated.
  • edited November -1
    They make giant Tanukis? Sweet!
  • edited November -1
    They do look like bigger Tanuki's LOL ~
  • edited November -1
    Interesting to hear how about how it happens--the long coat I mean.

    I have to admit they are not the dog for me....they kind of remind me of a chow-akita cross....
  • edited November -1
    In one of those photos in the first video, that dog ACTUALLY could be confused with a Grizzly Bear at first glance [0:34]!
  • In our experience with Akitas, "woolies" do indeed have a better overall temperament, especially in relation to people (they are just loveable, friendly and good natured). In terms of dog aggression, our wooly is still a pain with small dogs (they are all snacks, it appears), but in terms of anything remotely "Akita-like" in terms of aloofness, wariness, and "dignified" (have to laugh at that term for our dog), she's a push-over of stunning proportions. We bought an Akita based on everything we'd learned about the breed.

    We instead have a stunningly attractive Lab who loves everybody, licks, kisses, jumps, waves, and even at 3 yrs still occasionally pees with excitement when strangers come over.

    And it's NOT us doing some miraculous socializing - we've owned Chow Chows, and also have a Kai - these dogs have all been exactly (or darn near) as expected for their breed type.

    In fact, I feel our Kai is more aloof with strangers than I'd expect (or like), yet her little sister is unconditionally... a total spaz.
  • Interesting! I'd heard they had a different temperament, but wondered why that was. (And damn this is an old thread--I really knew nothing way back then! :lol:)
  • Here's some photos of the Ushi (Japanese for "cow" because she reminds us of a Holstein):

    image
    image

    In serious need of a brushing!:
    image
  • I find it very hard to believe that long coat is tied to temperament. It is much easier to believe that Ushi would be just as loveable even if her coat was short. Personality is extremely complex, and narrowing it down to one gene is an inaccurate model. While it is possible as an earlier post claimed, that the long coat gene is transferred along with other genes that make soft temperament, it doesn't in any way account for heterozygous individuals who have and pass on only one long coat gene (carriers). If the long coat gene were passed along with soft temperament genes, the carriers would also have soft temperaments by virtue of having received the gene.
  • edited April 2013
    It isn't unheard of to have coat colors associated with another "unrelated" trait.

    Cats with three colors in their coat are females. And something about white cats with blue eyes are deaf.


    So. I don't think it is out of the realm of possibilities that akitas with long coats could be sweeter in temperament. But, i'm not a geneticist. I'm more concerned with avoiding the long coat.

    Basically, i think we could debate about this all day, but it would be near impossible to definitively say since, my limited knowledge, no one really knows all the exact genes (and all that incurs with genes). I mean, we don't know how to control bridling genetically. So. I kinda think there is no *real* way to scientifically say one way or another. At least not by way of internet knowledge, lol
  • edited April 2013
    @jellyfish: Any animal that lacks pigment in the retina will be blind and pigment on the eardrum will be deaf. Any animal with extreme white spotting could end up with white (unpigmented) areas of the retina or eardrum. Therefor, it is not unrelated, in fact, it is directly caused by being white. (As a side note, there are plenty of ways to get a white animal, extreme spotting is just one of them. So not all white animals will have this risk.)

    The red gene in cat is sex-linked. Males (XY) have one alelle (producing orange toms) while females (XX) have two alelles and can be heterozygous or homozygous (producing calico or tortishell queens).

    Linked genes are usually sex related. This is because the Y chromosome is actually shorter than the X chromosome; X can carry more alelles and genetic information than Y. These genes will only have one alelle in male individuals, preventing males from being heterozygous for a given trait; they are either clear or affected.

    For the long coat gene to be linked with other genes (not sex related), those genes would all need to be on the same chromosome and physically close to the long coat gene itself. During meiosis when the DNA is copied, the genes that are very close to each other are more likely to get copied together. It is entirely possible that some temperament related genes are next to the long coat gene within its chromosome.

    However, the fact still remains that if the long coat alelle is linked with other alelles, that linkage would be present and copy over during meiosis in all individuals who have a long coat gene -- not just the ones with the long coat appearance, but the carriers as well. At that point we're talking the majority of the Akita population. A great many Akitas would have soft temperaments because they are carriers, so many that you wouldn't be able to distinguish them from the rest.

    "No one really knows all the exact genes" actually, yes we do. There's even a DNA test for it.

    "So. I kinda think there is no *real* way to scientifically say one way or another." Of course there is. Scientific studies can be done even without identifying the specific genes. We know that VKH is genetic and highly heritable, for example, even though we don't have a test for it. Its simply a matter of having a proper study conducted, with scientific method, control groups, statistical analysis, etc. Not the limited experience and extremely biased opinion of pet owners who are looking to turn a conformation fault into a blessing.
  • I wonder if long-haired pups get handled more before they are placed and thus account for the easier temperaments that are reported.

    I mean, who wouldn't want to cuddy up with such a fluff ball? Or touch the coat at least once?

  • I think its the power of suggestion. People hear that long coats have soft temperaments, so when they get a long coat and it has a soft temperament, they attribute cause and effect when there is none. They then tell others the same thing and the myth passes on. If on the other hand they have a normal coat with a soft temperament or a long coat with a correct temperament, they think nothing of it.
  • Coat length is nothing to do with temperament. i can find very aggressive long hair Akita very easy. it's the owner and it's nothing to do with it.
  • There's been studies that show correlation of temperament with coat colors in mammals, but I couldn't find any about coat length.

    As the owner of a midget long coat, it's actually annoying that complete strangers will manhandle my pup after asking my permission to "say hi". Just b/c she looks like a huggable teddy bear doesn't mean she wants to be treated like one. She especially doesn't like getting petted on the head/ears and will start mouthing the hand. I let her.
  • edited April 2013
    I don't think temperament is all environment (i.e. owner). While I haven't found that much hard evidence that temperament is inheritable, there seems to be plenty of anecdotal evidence that way, and I do believe it can be passed on. I believe there is a study we've got linked somewhere around here about fearful dogs passing that on to pups, at least.

    I'm not willing to say that coat length is or isn't tied to temperament. Some people think it is, some people think it isn't, but I don't think it's been proven either way.

    regardless, Ushi is super cute!

    And I don't think this is about pet owners who are trying to turn a conformation fault into a blessing. Where does that come from? I've heard the thing about long coats mostly from breeders who produced them and were placing them in pet homes. But no one was trying to justify producing long coats or anything like that--they were just talking about their experiences. Maybe those experiences are not based in hard science, but I'm certainly not willing to dismiss their experiences with dogs they know.
  • edited April 2013
    I'm in agreeance with @shibamistress here, I don't think that it has been proven either way. Because of the uncertainty, no one can definitively say (with hard evidence) that temperment and long coats have any relation to each other. There could be very well no relation. thats fine. But don't think it has been proven either way.

    and i'll leave it at that.
  • @shibamistress - With regards to pet owners who are trying to turn a conformation fault into a blessing, it's actually been brought up on one of the Akita FB pages. Some pet people in the UK want to petition the Kennel Club to accept long-hairs. They tie it to the Karafuto Ken and "natural" to the breed.
  • Nature, nurture, some other factor (aliens?), I don't know - but I can say from *my* experience woolies are truly unique in disposition relative to their "non-defective" counterparts.
  • edited April 2013
    @shibamistress - With regards to pet owners who are trying to turn a conformation fault into a blessing, it's actually been brought up on one of the Akita FB pages. Some pet people in the UK want to petition the Kennel Club to accept long-hairs. They tie it to the Karafuto Ken and "natural" to the breed.
    Well, that's a totally different thing then. I'd not run across that, and of course, do not support it.

  • edited April 2013
    Yeah, that was the attitude I was referring to -- not that anyone here was doing anything of the sort. Calling a spade a spade should not be taken as an insult. Nor should the owners of spades feel the need to trump up how awesome their spade is and why it is better than all other gardening tools. Yet LC owners all over the internet and Facebook get very defensive about their dogs' coat lengths, make wild claims about temperament, longevity, preservation, and so-on, and many also "put down" normal coated Akitas and their owners.

    Health concerns aside, there is nothing wrong with a long coat akita. They aren't inferior to the rest of the breed, just different. They can't be shown because it is against the breed standard which in turn is because the coat makes them less able to perform their traditional work -- but lets be honest, who can name any kennel that has working lines, Japanese or American Akitas? I don't think you can. I can't. So even then, the coat doesn't matter except for winning awards at shows. Nobody should be made to feel that their dog is "bad" or "defective" because of its coat. Every dog deserves to be loved, well cared for, and so-forth no matter how it looks, whether its purebred or not, and even if it has special needs. This is especially true for dogs that we humans intentionally bring into this world, the ones coming from breeders.
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