Akita Heat vs early age spay-neuter

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  • In my exp. getting a dog altered does not correct behaviors. It does "dull" hormonal related behaviors- so far the only one I know of is wandering in males. Marking and aggression still happens it's a trait that is picked up from other animals and fight or flight passed down from parents.

    Dogs will still mount other dogs etc. With proper training you should be able to make ur dog do anything. Including not doing what u don't want.

    As far as growth the honest answer: no one knows - some studies say yes it affects growth, other studies say it doesn't and it actually promotes it. CONCLUSION: Ask your breeder the size and rate of growth of past litters from mom and dad that'll give you the best idea.

  • Both of my bitches that I had spayed due to pyometra also mellowed out significantly with regards to picking fights or rising to the challenge from other female dogs.
  • There's some threads around on best ages to neuter....maybe do a search for them, too. Here's a link to a thread on the Shiba side that contains links to lots of journal articles about effects of early spay/neuter (early, btw, is before six months of age, and sometimes as young as 8 weeks!) The thread title says spaying, but it is also about neutering: http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/11439/scientific-journal-articles-about-spaying#Item_11

    I think leaving them intact til 1 year is best for growth, but after that, I'm dubious that it matter much. He's still going to grow some, you know, since he's not a year old. A bit taller. He'll fill out a bit more. But it's not like neutering him now is going to make much of a difference in his growth. If you were trying to get him bigger by neutering him (which isn't something I think is a good idea) you would have had to do an early neuter.

    I think anyone who has lived with an adult intact male (and probably female too!) will tell that you it does, indeed, stop some behaviors, esp. sex related behaviors. Put an end to my Kai Ken's constant marking. Now he's just at a normal level, rather than peeing on everything (and sometimes everyone).

    He sounds like he is a good boy and a good size. Neuter him when it is a good time for you.
  • Ok so I was reading this article http://www.chai-online.org/en/companion/overpopulation_sn_early.htm and for the most part it made a lot of sense. Then I started reading the post by Brada1978 about Lani and how she filled out after she went into heat and started to wonder....



    .....since I do not plan on breeding my akita --should I look into early spay-neuter? Would doing this prevent a similar maturing from happening?

    IF this could be an issue about how long should i wait(six months or so)?
    Apparently I was full of shit in 2009. :)

    Do not plan on breeding = on my third litter buying a second JA
    If you look around I said I'd never show either. After all I was just getting a pet = involved with both japanese Akita clubs in the US.



  • "Apparently I was full of shit in 2009. "

    It's funny how that keeps happening to us all when you drill back a few years on the Forum... :)
  • I did read that original post and go....wait, what?! Then looked at the date! :)
  • Lol I too noticed that... cuz I know jack from other posts.

    In my readings of the links posted I have also realized that by neutering my JA early could have caused his bone marrow cancer. Ares was neutered at 4 months old. I came home to a neutered dog. My wife and vet made the decision. I was a bit upset. But had no idea that it would possibly cause bone marrow cancer.

    I also gathered that kenji my AA has about 3 months left to grow the 2" he needs. I am probably worrying over nothing. Like I did with his ears coming up.

    I believe it was jack in another post that told me about the bump at the first joint up from the paw. My Ja had this bump. Or growth plate that was no longer there when he finished growing. But my AA has no discernable bump. He is much thicker boned. His legs are nearly twice as thick as my JA.

    Shibamisteress indicated that after a year is good. And I havent been able to find much info yet on when the chest widens and if neutering can effect that. My Ja's chest is not wide at all I consider him very narrow chested. I am afraid its because he got neutered to soon.

    I did read in one of the threads that they widen at around the 5th year and some breeders wait 5 years before they show their dogs for that reason.

    I take that to mean 5 years intact gets the chest to widen. But at 5 years with out having sex this can cause problems too. Like testicular cancer. I still haven't decided when to do this. Its turning out to be a hard decision for me to make.

    Oh and I should have started my post with...
    Resurrection or bump or something lol


  • edited February 2014
    Not having sex does not cause ball cancer. That is just silly. If it did there would be a much higher rate of testicular cancer in intact males who are never bred. I honestly think neutering to prevent testicular cancer is stupid since it's an incredibly rare form of cancer that is almost never fatal.

    I don't know when chests widen, my Hokkaido is 10 months an still has a skinny chest. My Shiba was neutered really early by the shelter (2 1/2 - 3 months I believe) but he's got a hulk chest. Maybe because he's got severe luxating patella in his right knee, so he puts most of his weight up front so that caused more mass to be built up there? I dunno, but he's got a little head, it looks kinda funny... He's super tall though, he's got long legs.

    All the credible research I've found says that neutering as late as possible is best IF you are going to neuter. I would not ever do it to a dog under 2 1/2 years old, especially a larger breed. I wouldn't neuter in general unless it was medically necessary, but that's just me.
  • To add onto what @Losech said, given that the treatment for testicular cancer is generally neutering and the cancer rarely spreads elsewhere if caught reasonably early (not even extremely early!), I wouldn't consider the chance of future testicular cancer to be much reason to neuter early on. It can be done when it becomes an issue if necessary.

    Not Akitas or even NK, but the intact male dog I've been around the most didn't finish filling out until he was about 3 1/2 (medium-sized dog--about 45lbs). His early-neutered brother never did develop the same depth of chest, and grew to be very leggy with a much narrower head. An unrelated male of the same breed, neutered before he was done growing but not as early, developed a more masculine head type and stayed in proportion as far as legs go, but also kept the narrower chest.

    Basically, I agree with Losech as far as neutering goes. I still think I'll likely spay any bitches I have in the future (after maturity) because I did lose my childhood dog from complications from pyometra, but with males... there just isn't as much of a reason in the overwhelming majority of cases. At least, not that I've ever seen personally--I've seen more neutered dogs with weird problems than intact ones, though some of that was probably because the people I've known with intact dogs have generally been more responsible about caring for them. They made the conscious decision not to neuter, and they accepted the responsibility of making sure their dog is not causing problems. For the most part.
  • So fast forward to 2014. There is an article posted here by Nekopan back in feb2009. I use that article a lot when explaining my views to new puppy buyers.

    It a great well thought out article.

    http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
  • Very interesting article ^^^^
  • I think a lot of people, including my vets, think that once the growth plates have closed, which varies, but is usually around a year depending on breed, then the dog no longer needs the growth hormones and can be spayed or neutered.

    Except for my GSD, who died of bone cancer and had also been neutered early, none of my neutered males have any health problems that could be attributed to it. Only one more, the male Shiba, was neutered under a year old (he was neutered at 5 or 6 months). He is very large, which is common with dogs neutered early, or in his case not super early, but before a year. They're likely to be larger when neutered early.

    My neutered males are healthy, and easy to live with, easier, in fact, than when they were intact, and there is no reason to not neuter a dog that will not be bred. If people choose not to and they are responsible, fine, but I found it much easier to live with the neutered males.

    My point is, I'd have to see some evidence that there is a need to wait for two years before I'd believe it, because I haven't it yet. Plenty of evidence against pediatric spay/neuter, but I don't see anything that says it is necessary to wait two years (except perhaps in a giant breed, which even an Akita is not). They don't grow much in the second year, though they might fill out some, but they are going to do that whether they are spayed/neutered or not. For a smaller dog like a Shiba or Kai I'd probably still wait til a year, but 6 months is probably fine. I would prefer to wait for a year in a large breed like an Akita, though honestly, I may still spay my girl before she is a year old if I can avoid a heat.

    I don't even really understand the obsession with size: I want my dog to be this big, or whatever. I wanted my dog to have healthy bones, and slow healthy growth, which is why I wait. And especially if they are not going to be bred, who cares about size of chest or head or whatever? I don't understand that.
  • Thanks for sharing that article @JackBurton.

    The one thing I'm most interested in learning about is the one thing they did not discuss in the paper, namely the effects of neutering on a dog's behaviour. Can anyone provide any good articles or their own experiences on this? Thanks!
  • edited February 2014
    The hormones that are removed when a pet is altered are not only necessary for proper growth :P

    I would've liked it it Katana were a bit bigger, I highly doubt he'll grow much taller than he is now, which is not much taller than Conker, and barely meets JKC/FCI/HKH standards, not tall enough for NIPPO (but I don't give a crap about that standard stuff).
    Maybe I should have neutered him while he was still growing.

    Conker's head bugs me, it's small and girly, it is not proportional to his body size. The appearance really isn't important but the fact that he was not allowed to mature correctly is. If I'd known what negative effects neutering a baby dog could have I never would've gotten a shelter puppy. I won't get anymore dogs that are or are required to be altered.

    Until I see some non-biased, well documented, compelling reason to alter pets, I won't do it unless it is medically necessary. They have those parts for a reason, and reproducing is not the only one. Hormones play a much bigger part in the entire body functioning properly than the spay/neuter mantra leads you to believe.
    If you want to spay/neuter your dogs that's fine, your choice, but I hope you did some research first and understand what it means to permanently remove important hormones. If to prevent puppies is the only reason, a tubal ligation or vasectomy is a much wiser choice than spay/neuter.

    Here is a Vizla study that came out recently, it mentions some behavior problems:
    http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/vizsla_javma_study.pdf

  • My neutered male "RottKailler" (Sage- neutered at 5 mos) has a big, drafting-dog-style chest and shoulders, I dont think neutering limited his growth. He was a wispy, lean teen, but he bulked up slowly over time despite being neutered.
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