O'Ikon/Peggy G. still breeding?
  • ChrisHChrisH
    Posts: 6
    Hello,

    Does anyone know if Peggy Graham is still breeding Shikoku? I spoke with her 4 or 5 years ago when I was just looking for info on the breed. Sadly, I recently lost my Shiba just shy of her 15th birthday and now that some time has passed am interested in a Shikoku. I've sent an email to the address on their contact page but it gets returned as "No Such User Here" and messaged on the O'ikon Facebook to no avail. Any help would be appreciated.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    Yes they are still an active kennel. They are currently embarking on an interstate move, so they may not be available to answer messages at this time.
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  • brennamwkbrennamwk
    Posts: 51
    I was curious about this myself! I messaged her Facebook Kennel webpage not too long ago because another breeder told me she moved to North Carolina. But I haven't gotten a response and her email on her website doesn't work for me either. So similar problems!
    Post edited by brennamwk at 2016-07-07 13:12:58
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1822
    I would give her some time. She's currently in the process of moving and she probably doesn't check her email every day.

    My boy, TK, is from Peggy and Bob at O'Ikon. They've been awesome and it was a pleasure to be able to meet them after I got him as his second home.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • ChrisHChrisH
    Posts: 6
    Thanks much, Calia and Crispy!
  • jigzzorjigzzor
    Posts: 118
    Peggy is currently moving to North Carolina, She literally just moved I believe monday? O spoke to her a few days ago as well so she's just very busy. All 3 of my dogs are from her, and they're all a delight. Anyway i'm sure once she's settled in she'll contact anyone who was interested in a litter, that or she's waiting for a dog to go into heat. Breeding a rare breed is complicated work and i've had the pleasure to talk with 2 of the shikoku breeders about the inner workings of breedings. It is not easy and can take a very long time! So good luck and hopefully you get your pup soon.
  • brennamwkbrennamwk
    Posts: 51
    I can't believe as soon as I start looking into the breed, a breeder moves about the same time as I did to NC. I messaged her a welcome to the state after finding out she moved here. I think her Shikoku will love the outdoorsy feel of NC a lot. I've only been here since April, but I can't wait to see other Nihon Ken in this state. I've been trying to start a shiba club, but to no avail.
  • ChrisHChrisH
    Posts: 6
    Appreciate the info, jigzzor. I wasn't sure she was still operating the kennel after I got the instantly returned email I sent to the address on her website. Hopefully the move went smoothly for them and I hear from her soon.
  • brennamwkbrennamwk
    Posts: 51
    Hey Chris! I got a response from her facebook last night! If you haven't messaged her there, I would consider it. She's still settling in but it will get your name out there.
  • ChrisHChrisH
    Posts: 6
    Thanks so much. It was almost a month ago when I first messaged her there, I'll give it another shot.
  • brennamwkbrennamwk
    Posts: 51
    Okay! I would still be patient! She's still settling in here in North Carolina. So, I'd give it time still. Her responses may not be immediate.
  • So any luck? Its been a month since she first talked to me so I hope you got a little response too.
  • ChrisHChrisH
    Posts: 6
    I meant to shoot you a message and completely forgot. About a week after you posted here she sent me her number and we spoke for a good half hour. Thanks again to you and Nihon Ken forums!
  • MBeatsMBeats
    Posts: 53
    Peggy is amazing! Couldn't speak more highly of her and how & what she does.
  • Well that's good! I've been thinking of shooting her another FB message just to follow up since its been about a month. And oh I know! I hope we can adopt a puppy from her in the upcoming year. I've been dog sitting to test the waters on having a third dog in the house and Kuma and Nanook I think would really enjoy it. I would love to visit and see a shikoku in person to see how they act and also to get an idea of the size difference between my AKK and Shiba. Peggy seems like a super sweet lady! And her dogs are all healthy and beautiful.
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 508
    @brennamwk, @ShikokuSpirit might have a comparison pic of AKK and Shikoku
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    There are three sizes to the AKK. Toy, miniature, and standard. The standard size AKK is bigger than the Shiba. The miniature size AKK overlaps with the Shiba.

    @brennamwk, what size is your AKK?
    Post edited by ayk at 2016-08-18 19:50:34
  • emi802emi802
    Posts: 295
    Shikoku vs Shiba comparisons are fairly easy to find on instagram. :) Though shiba sizes can sometimes vary quite a bit.

    Here are a few:
    @GrayJJ has both https://www.instagram.com/graysonandtakeo/
    @roninshiba has both https://www.instagram.com/kuma_kiyomi/
    https://instagram.com/shibamax
    https://instagram.com/shibaoffleash
    @CrimsonO2 also has a shiba + 2 shikoku
    Post edited by emi802 at 2016-08-18 20:49:44
  • @brennamwk, @ShikokuSpirit might have a comparison pic of AKK and Shikoku

    That would be helpful! We have the standard size as he is 6 months and 15 lbs. I'm sure when he hits one year he will bulk up even more.
  • Shikoku vs Shiba comparisons are fairly easy to find on instagram. :) Though shiba sizes can sometimes vary quite a bit.

    Here are a few:
    @GrayJJ has both https://www.instagram.com/graysonandtakeo/
    @roninshiba has both https://www.instagram.com/kuma_kiyomi/
    https://instagram.com/shibamax
    https://instagram.com/shibaoffleash
    @CrimsonO2 also has a shiba + 2 shikoku


    I actually follow a lot of these accounts on Instagram already! Its strange how in still photos Shibas can look not that much smaller than Shikoku and then sometimes you can really see how mini they are in comparison. I just really want to see it in real life. And also just to see one to get a feel for the dog. I didn't meet an AKK before I got Nanook, and although I studied them all the time online actually being around them was different. I met a few Shibas in Japan before I got Kuma, and he turned out to be completely different than them! But, I think its definitely my preferred method of studying a dog breed before I get them.
  • meeting shikoku in real life is highly recommended.
  • @WrylyBrindle absolutely!
  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 269
    (edited: duplicated post)
    Post edited by GrayJJ at 2016-08-20 14:13:07
  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 269
    Peggy's dogs have a very nice calm temperament :) you can't go wrong! I highly recommend meeting as many shikoku as you can though.

    As for a size comparison pic I'll try to post one later tonight. My dream is to get them stacked for a side photo, still impossible lol --- It's hard to judge though, my shiba is on the smaller scale of the breed standards but in my mind it's the size I expected?
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    Not all of these are the best pics, but you can get an idea of a Shikoku compared to Shiba and Huskies.
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  • Peggy's dogs have a very nice calm temperament :) you can't go wrong! I highly recommend meeting as many shikoku as you can though.

    As for a size comparison pic I'll try to post one later tonight. My dream is to get them stacked for a side photo, still impossible lol --- It's hard to judge though, my shiba is on the smaller scale of the breed standards but in my mind it's the size I expected?


    I follow you on instagram! I think I commented on the size before! Kuma, my shiba, is 21 lbs. So he's kinda small too but to me its what I expected as well. I know some Shibas can be much bigger. Kuma never holds still for pictures either! Nor does Nanook. Nanook is a 15 lb AKK, but I expect him to get bigger since he's only 6 months old.
  • @Calia Wow! So similar! For a second I couldn't tell them apart! How heavy is your Shiba? Is your Shikoku male or female as well? I know I want a male, and they definitely have a lot of size difference depending on their gender.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    Miyu the Shikoku is female, she's about 37lbs and (I think) almost 18 inches to the shoulder. Tetsu the shiba is male, weighs 20lbs, and 14 inches to the shoulder. The huskies are 23-ish inches high, weights are 55 and 70 pounds.

    Miyu was produced by Peggy, and while she is a great dog she is still a pain in the butt at times. One thing to take into consideration is that Shikokus and Shibas aren't always a good combination. They are both headstrong breeds that don't like to back down, arguments can escalate quickly between them. Having the huskies definitely eases the tension as they offer a playful partner.
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  • @Caila Very true! I imagine the AKK and the Shikoku will get on very well with each other. With Nanook and Kuma, I've been socializing them a lot and generally they do well. Nanook as much as I love him, he can be a butthole and Kuma tolerates it. Nanook will clamp on his neck and then just stay there. He will kick him out of water bowls and food bowls and steal his treats. But luckily I always have enough and am always around and this eases everyone's minds.
  • haalumnihaalumni
    Posts: 45
    @Calia Is Miyu from Peggy's Saki x Shiggy litter?
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1822
    @haalumni - not @Calia, but I think Miyu is from Yamato and Suki, because I know she's TK's niece!
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 269
    One thing to take into consideration is that Shikokus and Shibas aren't always a good combination. They are both headstrong breeds that don't like to back down, arguments can escalate quickly between them.


    I can't agree more! It's a relationship that needs to be "managed" constantly. For anyone that thinks otherwise, this does not sort itself out.
  • @GrayJJ Very true. Kuma and Nanook both have time outs in their crates when things get heated and I will be doing the same for any future dogs. Though to me Grayson and Takeo seem to get along really well! Have you had any particular issues?
  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 269
    Here are some photos that might help ? Grayson is about 15-16" at the withers and 20 lbs., Takeo is about 19-20" and 40 lbs.

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    @brennamwk I am very lucky they get along, but they STILL require management most of the time - as it escalates very quickly. But have met a couple of shibas who hated Takeo, and Grayson not fond of other shikokus :) It's complicated! So i don't think they always make an easy pair, every individual dog will behave differently IMO.
    Post edited by GrayJJ at 2016-08-21 11:42:14
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1822
    This isn't going to be super helpful, but here's a large male Shiba (top of the standard so probably around 17") in the foreground with a large male Shikoku (around 22" and 45-48 pounds, depending on the season) in the background. Forced perspective is throwing off the size, so it's not really as good a measure as @GrayJJ or @Calia comparisons.

    image

    I have the same male Shiba next to a 5-6 month old female Kishu. Kishu are generally the same size/similar size as a Shikoku, so this might be helpful... Fionna (Kishu) was probably around 17 inches in this shot.

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    and here's that same Kishu, full-grown (at a bit over 18 inches, a hair under 19), next to a 6 month old male Kishu...

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    I think at 6 months, a Kishu or Shikoku may have another inch or two of growing tall left. Shikoku and Kishu end up quite a bit larger than Shiba.

    Here's my female Kishu, full grown, next to my male Shikoku. Maybe you can extrapolate some sizes from all this and the previous posts.

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    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • @GrayJJ I understand! For instance, Kuma hates any dog that's XL. We had a puppy Great Dane over the house who was 113 lbs and Kuma was not a fan. I think the size intimidated him and instead of being afraid he went on the defensive. Dogs don't get along with every dog just like us not getting along with every person. But this is actually really helpful! Kuma is the same size as Grayson for the most part. Does Takeo ever hurt Grayson with just his play? That is really a big worry of mine that the size difference will mean Kuma or Nanook will be hurt just trying to play with a dog whose double their weight. Kuma once did get hurt on accident by a 75 lb dog just playing. They were running and he tripped and the other dog didn't stop and hit him. He got a back leg limp that multiple vets couldn't exactly diagnose but we treated with steroids and bed rest for 2 weeks. They said it was most likely just a muscle tear or he hyperextended it. Even now 6 months later, I really watch the leg because he can get sensitive and require some RnR away from Nanook and walks etc. We are hopefully starting him on acupuncture therapy soon to rid him of the sensitivity and strengthen the leg fully back up!

    @Crispy These were really helpful too! Out of curiosity, how do your Kishu and Shikoku get along? Are they very compatible due to their similarities or not?
  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 269
    @brennamwk nah, Grayson hasn't been hurt, but I always intervene if it gets too intense. He also fits under takeo now, so he knows how to just twirl away lol. I have heard either dog yelp if it gets too extreme, so I usually don't let it get that far!
  • @GrayJJ Well that's great! I'm really becoming more confident about my decision then to want to give this breed a chance as our third dog to round out our pack. We aren't making any commitments yet, but I love how helpful you guys are being.
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1822
    @brennamwk - one of my Kishu (the eldest, Nami) does not get along with TK (Shikoku) very well. She wants to play with him, but if anything gets too high-intensity or high-energy, she will go for him.

    All of the younger Kishu get along with him very well and play well with him, but I think that may be because they were puppies around him. They tolerate his rudeness and are not as prickley about his Shikoku-isms.

    Even one of the puppies who was returned to me seem to remember TK and played very well with him. This puppy (who was a little over a year and a half when he came back and is pictured in my display picture/profile picture) played worse with his sister (Fionna, the white Kishu in my pictures above) than he did with TK. I was kind of surprised.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
    Post edited by Crispy at 2016-08-21 22:29:18
  • @Crispy Very interesting! I don't really know much about Kishus but I showed someone from the AKK owners page your instagram with the Beaucerons because they too have Beaucerons and love the breed. Your kishus are quite the bunch. I'm glad TK is good with puppies!
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1822
    @Brennamwk - Oh! Small world! The Beauceron are awesome and do amazingly with the Kishu. Aegis has had some issues with TK and TK has had some issues with Balder, but TK is kind of a grumpy old man and I think the Beauceron tendency to circle-circle-circle stresses him out. The Kishu LOVE them, though. My friend, their owner, showed me a litter to be born soon/has been born recently(?) and I'm low-key tempted to get a Beaucer... but I dunno. It might be too soon for me...
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • @Crispy Apparently her AKK like her Beaucerons too! They seem like real sweet guys. If you do get one hopefully you show it off in the off topic section! I'd love to see how it goes!
  • emi802emi802
    Posts: 295
    @brennamwk When considering size, you should also consider their height at the shoulders! The sizes and weights of our 3 shikoku are.... somewhat varied.

    Katsu (Male, Ryuu x Suki, 2 years old) is ~34 pounds
    Shou (Male, Ryuu x Suki, 2 years old) is ~36 pounds
    Miyuki (Female, Yamato x Kiyoshi, almost 1 year old) is ~42 pounds

    Katsu is our lightest dog, but he's also our biggest dog! He's noticeably taller and longer than the other two. Shou looks significantly smaller than him in person. I think the height is what really makes them look bigger/smaller in photos.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    @Calia Is Miyu from Peggy's Saki x Shiggy litter?


    My Miyu is from Peggy's Yamato x Suki pairing back in 2010.
    image
  • @emi802 The reason I'm concerned with weight is only because other dogs who throw their weight on Kuma have hurt his back leg before. My only concern with height is that Kuma and Nanook are little strategists. They love to go in between a taller dog's legs and bite their ankles when wrestling. Such rascals!

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