JA and AA in USA
  • Hi all,
    I have a question. In USA are there 2 different breed clubs for the japanese akita and american akita, or not? I know that in USA it is a unique breed, and both are judged in the same ring during the expo, is it correct? If it is so, I would like know the reason, because there are differences between 2 kinds.
    Thanks for the answers!
  • T_DogT_Dog
    Posts: 331
    There is JACA and AKIHO for JA's and ACA for AA.
    http://www.akitaclub.org/ for ACA

    http://www.akita-inu.com/jaca-member-resources/ JACA

    https://m.facebook.com/akiho.la/ this is AKIHO for the JA.

    https://youtu.be/AwSmp2QyXmc here is a video JA vs AA

    https://youtu.be/FmH1w_JS85o here is another.

  • The Akita Club of America is recognized as the parent club of the Akita in AKC. They do not separate between AA or JA but the American Akita is the dominant breed represented. There are some people who show JA but they tend not to do well or need to hand pick their judges to do well.

    The Akitainu Hozonkai - established in the late 1920s is a preservation society for the Japanese Akita. Akiho has many branches in Japan. The oldest foreign branch is in Los Angeles. It was established in 1970. Akiho Los Angles, defined by its bylaws, represents Akiho I the United States. There are also Akiho clubs in Europe. AKIHO is the highest level of JA showing in the world.

    Japanese Akita Club of America - was established in 1997 and is the parent club of the Japanese Akita. JACA works with the United Kennel Club which show the JA as its own breed just like the rest of the world. JACA is sister clubs with Akiho LA. JACA is also a charitable organization.

    There is no national kennel club in the USA. The AKC is the largest and most widely recognized. The UKC(United Kennel Club) is the second largest. AKC and CKC(Canadian Kennel Club) are the last two major kennel clubs to see the Akita as one breed.

    Last weekend both Akiho and JACA held their major shows. You can find their photos on the club(s) Facebook page.
    www.akita-inu.com
    www.Japanese-Akitas.com
    pedigrees.akita-inu.com
  • And as a side note, the Japanese Akitas that do do well in AKC are the ones that resemble the American Akita more. Which means they resemble the Japanese Akita less, and deviate from ideal JA type. So a JA that wins in AKC is almost always a poor representative of its true breed. But the majority of them are actually mixed JA/AA because a JA needs to be bred to the larger AA stock in order to produce puppies that meet AKC height requirements which are a full 3" taller than AKIHO.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2016-02-23 14:04:10
  • I understand , but why not split clearly the 2 breeds as in Europe? Any problems? Sorry, I would like to understand better. Many thanks!
  • AKC leaves that up to the breed clubs. In this case the ACA. The ACA has chosen not to split the breed. As for why -- there is a vocal minority who profits from the sale of mixed Akitas marketing their puppies as having "oriental" type. They fear that they wont be able to show/register their dogs in the future and that their pedigrees and titles will be invalidated. They have convinced the majority to maintain the status quot by arguing that (a) the American Akita "needs" the diversity from mixing with the Japanese breed and (b) that it "doesn't hurt" the breeders who want to breed pure AAs to allow others to breed mixed.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
  • I don't know if I would go that far to say the whole ACA is anti two breeds. They need a 2/3rds of their general membership to vote to split the breed in AKC. The last vote was above 50%.

    Is AKC really that important? If you feel that AKC is the Kennel club for the United States then yes it's a huge deal. Right now it brings more headaches than benefits. Here is the US we are starting to a see a rise in people who are back yard breeders. Some are registering AKC because they cannot register UKC due to the heritage of their Akitas. JACA has raised thousands of dollars in the past few months to help rescues deal with Japanese Akitas who are dumped in shelters.

    The next issue is the overall quality of the Japanese Akitas. While there are a lot of quality European Japanese Akita breeders we've notice a huge uptick in the number of JA being breed with major issues (full white collars, white blazes that continue over the head, structure issues, corrective surgery on puppies, and breeding known VKH/SA Japanese Akitas). We were very surprised to learn that this has been noticed at Akiho HQ as well. The number of poor quality Japanese Akitas being shown on the internet is drowning out the excellent breeders that can be found all across Europe. Even Akiho isn't immune to these issues. Their new Chinese branches got caught with falsified litter registrations.

    This is going to sound crazy but for now our current system is working. The Japanese Akitas have two very reputable places to register and show their dogs. The Akita people have their places to register and show their dogs. I'm cool with that.
    www.akita-inu.com
    www.Japanese-Akitas.com
    pedigrees.akita-inu.com
  • I didn't say they were -- I said there is a vocal minority, and that minority has managed to sway the vote each time by convincing *enough* of the majority.

    ETA: Honestly I am happy NOT having AKC. The number of BYB and mills that would pop up overnight is really scary. As it is we're doing a very good job managing, but the breed popularity and bad breeders are on the rise. We don't need to open the flood gates.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2016-02-23 21:01:44
  • lwrothlwroth
    Posts: 161
    A real misunderstanding of why people are interested in blends. There are people out to just make money on *any* type of Akita. I think the floodgates are already open from the number of JAs in shelters. The people I know who are interested in blends are interested in the possibility of better health for both types and of a more balanced dog. Both the show American Akitas and Japanese Akitas are becoming more exaggerated in type, moving away from the Akita of the "Golden Age" of the 70s in Japan. The American Akitas are often bulky with short legs; the Japanese Akitas are getting domed skulls, upturned muzzles, tiny eye rims, and way forward ears, becoming more "cute" than dignified. Often a blend is a more balanced and moderate dog. I was surprised by the lack of knowledge of genetics when the discussion of the VGL genetic diversity test first came up. We offered JACA 50 free tests, which they declined. We now have a slide show that explains the importance of the test (and the silliness of arguing about two breeds vs one breed) for those who might have an open mind : http://caninediversity.com/akita-genetic-diversity-presentation/
  • BearMomBearMom
    Posts: 162
    What do you mean by domed skulls?
  • lwrothlwroth
    Posts: 161
    High and rounded; I was very surprised to see a number of JAs with that on FB photos.
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1825
    I don't see that in any of the JA I've seen... weird. If anything, American Akita skulls look really strange to me, these days.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • *JackBurton**JackBurton*
    Posts: 1369
    I'm curious too - could you post a photo for us to see?
    www.akita-inu.com
    www.Japanese-Akitas.com
    pedigrees.akita-inu.com
  • lwrothlwroth
    Posts: 161
    They show up on my FB feed every now and then. Perhaps the ones I saw were young Akitas. Also, I forget how to post photos. If I come across one, I'll try. I think the American Akita heads are getting exaggerated, too.
  • lwrothlwroth
    Posts: 161
    The Akita Club of America just donated $2500 to the Veterinary Genetics Laboratory for free genetic diversity tests for Akitas affected by SA and VKH; several individuals have made donations, too, for this. No matter what you think of me or of people who like blends, it would be a real shame for the Japanese Akita people in this country to turn down the opportunity to see if there's a way to breed away from these diseases. It's not looking for a gene marker as autoimmune diseases are usually polygenetic and need an environmental trigger as well as the genes. In Poodles SA was found to be more associated with degree of inbreeding than with specific alleles or haplotypes; that won't necessarily be true for Akitas. There's a reason why using all types of Akitas in the research on SA and VKH will make it easier to find regions of the genome that might be associated with these diseases. If you want more information, please let me know. And if you know of people who have affected dogs, please let them know.
  • TakayukiTakayuki
    Posts: 32
    @Iwroth Thanks for your post! I have 2 questions for you: 1) maybe I didn't understand, according to this study sometimes was the blend a choice to have future better health for both types AA and AJ? 2) Is it possible, in this interesting study, include also italian (my country) akitas or dogs of other european countries? Thanks for your answer!
    Post edited by Takayuki at 2016-03-19 09:24:16
  • *JackBurton**JackBurton*
    Posts: 1369
    Hi Linda,

    I spoke to Dr. Pedersen over the phone. At the end of the call we both agreed that the best thing to do was to fund a separate Japanese Akita only test. We both agreed that the breed wasn't going to be merged so it made little sense to run one big test. The problem I ran into wasn't the test or Dr. Pedersen. People just didn't want to be involved if you and Saija are involved. I don't what you did in your early UC Davis studies but these people trusted you with their sample Akitas that left a very sour taste in their mouth.

    For others it was how the test was setup - breed choice was 1 Akita -American Type 2 Blend and 3 Japanese Type. I chuckled with Dr. Pedersen that you most likely will want a summary stating that the akita is one breed to come out very early in the test. Then BAM there it is right on time. So for them it's stuff like that - people need to know that their sample is going to be used for objective research. In this case they just don't It's a bummer because Dr. Pedersen really is a nice person to speak with.

    I'm sure you'll agree that the best way to continue is to fund a study with another University. One that follows the breeds setup by the FCI so that the testing is comparing apples to apples. The more studies we get the better we will all be in the future. Choices are a good thing and I can't wait to offer owners multiple options to help them make educated breeding decisions.

    www.akita-inu.com
    www.Japanese-Akitas.com
    pedigrees.akita-inu.com
  • lwrothlwroth
    Posts: 161
    Takayuki, genetic diversity can help any type of Akita; it should be considered in breeding after all other factors you'd normally consider. The test showed Japanese Akitas are even more inbred than American Akitas. Yes, the test is open to Akitas everywhere and many people from Europe have taken part.
  • lwrothlwroth
    Posts: 161
    I think there were only two types of people upset by the earlier VKH study at UC Davis: those who submitted samples of affected Akitas whose samples were misdirected BY DAVIS and used in other genetic studies. Why would you assume I had anything to do with people's samples? This had nothing to do with me. Then there were people who didn't know much about genetics and the nature of research, who expected results from every research project. Again, nothing to do with me, except perhaps I overestimated people's intelligence.

    I didn't have expectations of the study in terms of one breed or two: that isn't my basic interest in it. You and Sean can continue to promote all the lies about me you want: the genetics and interpretation of it are what they are.


  • lwrothlwroth
    Posts: 161
    "For others it was how the test was setup - breed choice was 1 Akita -American Type 2 Blend and 3 Japanese Type."

    It's hard to comprehend how uncomprehending people can be. The breed choice was 1. American Type because there were many stored Akita samples from previous collections; 2. Blend, Other because there were blends interested in the test and rescues with no pedigrees with SA and VKH who wanted to help the research; and 3. Japanese Type last because a spokesperson for JACA said they wouldn't participate and VGL didn't expect the large response from JAs in other countries. Why are you complaining about that? It's not a ranking in any way.
  • *JackBurton**JackBurton*
    Posts: 1369

    I didn't have expectations of the study in terms of one breed or two: that isn't my basic interest in it. You and Sean can continue to promote all the lies about me you want: the genetics and interpretation of it are what they are.


    Linda I wouldn't call them lies. It's really hard to sell people on a test when I get emails like this:

    image

    image

    So you might want to go easy on the lies comment. But it is clear that you had a hand in the definition of the breeds and controlling where the samples went. Just like I would have with my kits if we ended up going in on this. I cannot tell people "hey do this test" if they have reservations because of who is involved with it. Lots of people like the test being done by UCD so it's not a knock against them. I found the staff to be very nice and informative.

    People need an apples to apples test. The best way to do that is to run multiple studies and let people compare the results. Lastly JackBurton is my screen name.
    www.akita-inu.com
    www.Japanese-Akitas.com
    pedigrees.akita-inu.com
    Post edited by *JackBurton* at 2016-03-19 17:27:21
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    Closing this thread because I've had complaints about it. Moving forward let's try to keep it professional.
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