An Aggressive Intact Male Shiba at the Park with My Female Shikoku
  • I took our 5-month old Shikoku to the dog park yesterday, and we ran into a male 3-month old Shiba. The Shiba started acting very aggressive towards Rosie (our Shikoku) by humping her and try to bit her crotch. This is the first time she's met an intact male but considering his age, I don't know if that makes a difference? I told her owner that's too rough, and we broke them up. After a while, we put them back again, and it still happened. They also pretty much wrestled and tustled/tumbled around biting each other everywhere (limbs, ears, etc..). I know dogs can get rough with each other, but this is too much no? Ended up just moving to a different spot, and played tag with her myself.
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 2215
    Sounds pretty normal for Shikoku play...

    Granted, only you can decide what is "too much" for your own dog. Shikoku, in general, can escalate their play to much rougher than what other dogs can handle.
    Jesse Pelayo

  • KajaKaja
    Posts: 216
    I echo the above comment. If it was play like in that video, then it's totally normal and it's great when you find a dog that plays in their style.

    If it was like something else... well, it's your call in the end. :)
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3449
    Sounds like they were both enjoying some good wrestling.
    Hokusei Kashinoki Hokkaido and Shiba Inu
  • rikumomrikumom
    Posts: 438
    Play styles can change: Pups that are teething do wrestling/gnawing play much more than after the adult teeth come in.
  • An Aggressive Intact Male Shiba at the Park with My Female Shikoku

    5-month old Shikoku to the dog park yesterday, and we ran into a male 3-month old Shiba.

    The title of this thread implies really different things than the first sentence- maybe it was tongue in cheek? This is two puppies - at three months old I don't think the intactness has anything to do with it. :)

    This is the first time she's met an intact male
    Probably not- did she have any male littermates? If so, she played with them all the time and three months is not much different then when she last saw her brothers at 2 months old. Testosterone spikes in adolescence (8 months- 12, 14 months) and then settles down to normal levels from there. (so adult intact males actually have significantly less testosterone going than "teenage" dogs) but this shiba is only 3 months old, so he's not in spike mode yet.

    BUT- the important thing is how your dog feels about this play, and what she is learning about other dogs by continuing it. If she (as an individual) hates it or is overwhelmed, and is learning that other dogs can be jerks and IF there is no way out except to be a bigger jerk back to them to make them stop, then by allowing it you are creating very difficult work for yourself in the future undoing it. I say trust your gut and let her know she doesn't have to be subjected to that.

    We say this all the time that dog parks are not appropriate for shikoku and the other NK breeds, but people seem to need to learn this on their own anyway. It is okay- more than okay!- to not go to the dog park. So playing with her in another area by yourself is a fine thing- especially if she lights up and is happy doing that :) I think if you were uncomfortable with the play going on, trust yourself. Dog-reactivity is not helped by getting overwhelmed in play with pent-up strangers, and it IS helped by a trusting relationship with the owner, and knowing that the owner will not abandon pup to the mosh pit. If your puppy loves playing with you and can give you great attention, then you are building inoculation in her against obsession with rowdy dogs, and over reaction to dogs and hyper vigilance when seeing/hearing dogs. (are they going come jump on me?! Like hell they are!! BARK SNARL LUNGE...)

    I think you made a good choice. :)
  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 280
    Agree with above, while it sounds like normal play, if you're uncomfortable, then best to separate your dogs.

    You can usually tell if your dog is having fun if they are diving right in, too -- and even if they separate they go back to play more. If they aren't interested they usually try to get away, and if the other dog is persistent (continues jumping/chasing) then it can be an issue.
  • rikumomrikumom
    Posts: 438
    There might be tidbits of info here for your reference and peace of mind. Even though the article was written for JA owners, I had a shiba in the past
    Post edited by rikumom at 2016-02-20 11:26:24
  • I am also on the "no dog parks" team with my Shiba. She did great when she was a pup, but quickly showed more signs of stress and discomfort every time we went. We called it quits after she was harassed by a Yorkie and she ended up snapping at it. It only takes one bad experience to permanently scar a dog, physically and emotionally. Plus, I've had quite a few less-than-pleasant exchanges with other dog owners on controlling their dogs or cleaning up after them. My girl is happiest on long walks, hikes, and in controlled play dates with familiar dogs. No ticking time bomb parks needed haha. If you even feel an ounce of insecurity in her interactions with another dog, it's best to intervene. I think you made the right call!
  • ^ yes, yes yes!
  • I agree with the above ...

    Instead of the dog park, puppy classes are grea!! Your puppy can make new friends and the atmosphere can be a little more controlled. If you believe you'd like your dog to be freinds with the Shiba pup invite the owner to the classes also. It may be easier to guide your puppy in proper dog etiquette in a more structured learning enviroment. Also in this enviroment other owners may be more apt to try guide their dogs with the instructors help. You can also invite Shiba puppy owner (if your confortable around the owner) to meet other places for dog walks, mini training sessions etc. instead of the chaos of the dog park. Having structured work and exercise to do before having free play time can also reduce stress and anxiety between dogs.

    Marsha Short
    Mijikai Kennel
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3386
    Speaking of bad experiences at the dog run, when my shiba was just 3 months old, and intact, he was attacked by a golden retriever at the dog park and his owner scoffed and said, "My dog doesn't like intact males, but that's usually not a problem because responsible owners neuter their dogs." That was back before I also joined the no dog parks team.

    Doggie daycare is a good alternative, assuming there's a well-run one in your area. They're supervised by experienced people and they kick out the aggressive dogs. Sosuke's enjoyed doggie daycare a couple times. I would never take Rakka, though.
    Dogs: Rakka (shikoku), Sosuke (kai), Effie (bc/kelpie)
    Cats: Hester, Batgirl, Stephanie, Harley
  • @Heidi - That owner would have found mystery poop on his windshield wiper if he said that to me...

    It's not so much the dogs that I have problems with at the parks, it's the owners. Ones that treat the park like their own personal gossip corner or spend more time texting on their phone than interacting with their dogs. My favorite were a group of toy poodle owners that brought their own chairs and tables to play cards and mingle with each other while all their dogs wreaked havoc with endless barking, gate rushing, humping, and ninja pooping.
  • Thank you folks for your input! We're following your advices and just taking it one step at a time, with supervision. She's not selective at all in the people she plays with, but pretty picky in deciding on canine friends ~_~.

    Also, @Heidi, some dog owners are just a-holes... I can't believe the jerk said that to you!
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3386
    It just popped into my head that I mentioned doggie daycare, but neglected to note that I think it should be used sparingly in NK and only if you're confident your individual dog would enjoy it. I had to leave Sosuke at doggie daycare a couple times while on vacation (the alternative was leaving him at my campsite) and he enjoyed it for the 2-3 hours he was there, but was pretty pooped afterward. Not physically, but I think that was enough for him. He's on the upper end of sociability for a NK, so a great many will never be suitable for that situation even for a short time.
    Dogs: Rakka (shikoku), Sosuke (kai), Effie (bc/kelpie)
    Cats: Hester, Batgirl, Stephanie, Harley
  • KajaKaja
    Posts: 216
    Heidi I totally second that a good doggy day care can be great for socialization. Trick is finding a reputable day care that knows how to handle dogs, and screens the clients (no bullies). Sometimes we bring Kaja to an open concept style place. She looooooves it. She finds the dogs that play like her and they have a blast. And yeah, she's pooped afterward because she played way too hard. xD

    I also support dog parks though (I know it's an unpopular opinion here). If your dog can handle it and you don't rely on it as your sole source of socialization it's fine (really, dog parks are good for the occasional run around with other dogs, sure, but also good for training). Thing is you have to find a park that's relatively quiet (like four dogs at a time), with responsible owners. Our oldest dog has always loved dog parks, and Kaja is only a year and a half but so far is on the same track. I know the dog park history of other NK owners here though, so I do think it's important to keep an eye out for signs of change as they mature.
    Post edited by Kaja at 2016-02-27 16:31:42
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3386
    I agree, doggie daycare varies greatly in quality. The one local to me is really good. It's run by some trainers I've taken classes from. It is almost exclusively attended by dogs who have permanent slots, so it's not a revolving door of random dogs. They also have different spaces so they can separate dogs by personality and play style.

    A setup where they throw a bunch of dogs into a yard isn't much better than a dog run.
    Dogs: Rakka (shikoku), Sosuke (kai), Effie (bc/kelpie)
    Cats: Hester, Batgirl, Stephanie, Harley

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