Any litters for 2016?
  • Hi guys! I'm looking to get another puppy in 2016 and was wondering if any of you were or knew of anyone planning for puppies? I live in New England, so that's where I'm looking around. I'd be happy with any of the breeds as well, other than another Shiba or an Akita- insurance won't allow. Thanks and let me know!
  • I think any breeder worth their salt will expect a puppy buyer to be well informed about their breed, and love that breed- they want to place their puppies with the best home possible. I don't think you will get much response with "any of the other breeds will do." They are really different in many ways, and it'd be good to think about what personality goes with what you are looking for.
  • They're all very similar and I would make a good owner for any of them and any of them would make me happy.
  • They're really not.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    You might want to do some research on each of the breeds, read through the various threads on this forum to learn about others experiences keeping them, and try to determine which one would be the best fit. While they may have some similarities, they also have just as many differences. A responsible breeder would want to make sure that a puppy buyer has done their research and wants to make sure that the breed is the right fit.
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  • I asked for answers about litters, not advice on breeds.
  • We're trying to clue you in to why breeders won't be responding in here and say "Hey, I;ve got a litter of breed X if you like!"
  • I know a lot about all of the breeds, I've read everything that I could and everything on this site. I know breeders would have questions and contracts for me, and I'm 100% they'd be happy with me. I've trained, worked with, groomed, volunteered with dogs my whole life. I've worked with many spitz breeds, and have a year old Shiba now. I live in the woods on an acre of land and exercise enough for an athletic dog. I know how spitz work/think. I don't think I need to prove myself though. Not trying to be rude, I just think I worded myself wrong.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    I thought you weren't allowed to keep Shibas due to insurance reason? Regardless, given that you already have a Shiba, I'd avoid getting a Shikoku.

    Also, the average wait time for the medium sized NK is at least 2 years. So in all fairness, there isn't any available pups this year for anyone who isn't already on a wait list. If you really want to get a medium sized NK, then your best bet is to find and contact a responsible breeder and try to get on their wait list.
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  • Akitas are what I can't have. And I already have a Shiba, and I don't like having the same breed twice. Too many great breeds to experience.
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    The breeds really are not the same. I've owned a shiba, a shikoku, and a kai, and I've met hokkaido and kishu. I love all of these breeds, but they're quite different from each other. You can't just say you've read all about them and you know they're all basically the same. Breeders will definitely take that as a sign that you don't actually know enough about them to own one.

    They're more like each other than they are like, say, a golden retriever, but there are key differences you really should be aware of. A lot of people own shibas first, then get another NK thinking they're basically the same, and end up being quite surprised. This is what happened to me. Owning a Shikoku was a lot more challenging than I expected, even though I'd already owned a shiba (and a chow mix before that) and had read all about dogs and knew all about spitz breeds.

    I'm not trying to be rude, either, but you need a different approach if you're ever going to get a puppy. Everyone who has posted has gone through the process and gotten a puppy at least once, and is friends with some of the breeders you may want a puppy from. Take our word for it, the breeds are not interchangeable and your approach will not get you a puppy.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • Considering that the NK breeds are rare enough as it is, you're not going to find one from a reputable breeder any time soon. I've known people that have waited 3-4 years just for a breeder to choose FOR them. Your Shiba is still really young at a year and considering that they could get more dog intolerant as they get older, wouldn't you consider waiting until he is fully matured and know that he would accept another NK in the house? You still have quite a lot of ground to cover in terms of training and socialization so why not focus on that first before considering another dog.
  • Again, I'm not asking for advice here. Never mind and goodbye.
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    Well, the short answer to your question is, yes, we all know of lots of upcoming litters. That information isn't relevant, though, since you're not getting any of them.

    But, good bye I guess.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • Haha thanks for the rude comment after I already ended the conversation. You seem like a sweet person. If you actually knew me, you would know I'd be an amazing owner.
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    Maybe you would be an amazing owner, I don't know (I didn't actually say otherwise), but none of those litters is available to you. It's not rude, it's the truth. You said you wanted an answer to your question, not advice. Well, that's the answer to your question, sans advice. There are upcoming litters, but they aren't available to you. I'm sorry to hear that you interpreted it as an insult.

    We also have a lot of people reading through old posts to find information, so while you may not return, this thread will probably be read in the future by someone with the same question. That's one of the reasons we post. You're not required to read or respond to the posts.

    Have a nice day.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1820
    Hey!

    Every single person on this thread has given you very valuable advice. Most people in the NK community do know of litters planned for this year or litters on the ground, but without taking the time to reach out to individual breeders via their email or contact forms (showing that you've done enough research, at least, to identify their contact information and see who/what they breed), not many people are going to give you those details.

    The 4 medium-sized Japanese breeds really are not SO similar where you can just plug any one into your situation. As said above, if you have a Shiba, I think it's practical to avoid Shikoku - while there are some successful Shiba/Shikoku homes, there are also a lot of stories of how their behavior is not compatible.

    The only person I see being consistently terse or rude is the OP.

    There are also no breeders of the medium-sized breeds in New England, that I am aware, so any puppies born will likely be out of the range you are looking in. I was the only breeder in New England (that I know of) and I moved across the country a year ago. :(
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • See, that's really all I wanted here. Actual information on breeders. Thank you. Now I can proceed on looking for importing a puppy in. I want either a Hokkaido or a Kai.. probably a Kai. And I haven't been rude at all. But everyone saying the same thing over and over again is annoying and what they were saying wasn't even answering the question I asked.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3012
    I think your original question was a bit vague.

    Instead of asking if any breeders have litter availible maybe better to ask where to find said breeders. There have been past threads asking for kai ken breeder and locations of said breeders.

    Hokkaido is still relatively in starting phase..

    Most likely any breeder you'd deal with in the usa will be a bit away..

    I think if Hokkaido and kai ken was your breed you are interested in having should just said that. Both have wait list and your best bet is contacting the breeders themselves.
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    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • i was asking more along the lines of hobby breeders. I figured, and was right considering people said they did know of breeders or litters, you guys could name someone for me. But like I said, I'm now looking into importing a puppy in.
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    @TheWalrus handles importing. His site is Japan Dog Export. Importing a dog from Japan is much more expensive than having a dog flown to you from somewhere else in the country.

    I would also throw out there for anyone considering importation, it would be really helpful to the breed if you worked with their associated breed club and considered keeping the dog intact, at least long enough for one litter. It could potentially help the gene pool of North American dogs a lot.

    My suggestion would be learning more about the breeds, meeting some dogs, deciding which one you want, and working with the breed club and North American breeders to help out with preservation.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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    Post edited by Heidi at 2016-02-16 22:38:17
  • I would keep her unaltered, but with no other breeders in New England, there'd be no one to breed her to
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    The NK population in North America is spread all over the place, so people do have to either travel or ship their dogs (or sperm sample) to each other for breeding. If pairings were limited to dogs that were close geographically, there wouldn't be much of a breeding program. It's usually easiest if the cooperative pet owner has a stud, so they can go take a breeding vacation at the breeder's where the female is, or a sperm sample can be mailed (although I believe AI isn't allowed in the KKA, which is the primary Kai registry).

    It's definitely extra work, but cooperative homes are appreciated.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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    Post edited by Heidi at 2016-02-16 22:33:12
  • My Shiba is an unaltered male, but I believe there's plenty of good breeders for that breed. My next dog will be a girl and I've never bred before, I wouldn't know a thing to do. And I wouldn't want to co-own a pet.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3430
    Begin you consider getting an intact bitch, you should plan to neuter your male Shiba, is my advice.
    info@hokkaidoken.org
    www.hokkaidoken.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    I'm more just putting that out there for anyone who might read it and is considering importing. It doesn't seem like a good fit for your situation (but I can't ultimately be the judge of that).
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    Before importing, try contacting established breeders of that breed and build a relationship with them. Get to know what lines they have, what lines worth importing, and just get general advice on the importing process. Building these relationships will benefit the breed and could help you build upon your own breeding program.
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  • Well I was planning on getting the female spayed when old enough. But if breeding is that important, I guess I could consider it. Which breed is more rare in the states and could use the female for breeding most? I think I'd be happy with a Hokkaido or a Kai.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3012
    There is a thread with list of kai ken breeders in usa. I'd contact them to decide which breeders you like and contact them for info.
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/8148/kai-ken-breeders-in-the-us/p1


    For hokkaido there is this site, but right now only one litter has happened and coarse all the pups are in their homes, but can get on waiting list.
    http://www.hokkaidoken.com/

    I don't know a ton of hokkaido breeders so can't help much on that only other one I know of is ITADAKI kennel. I think there is another european breeder who is on the forum, but not too active. I forgot their kennel name.

    Coarse can import from Japan too. It will take awhile anyways if you go via local breeders or import abroad.

    http://www.hokkaido-ken.eu/
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    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • Okay. Getting a Kai just seems easier.
  • FallenFallen
    Posts: 10
    Hey there! I’m just a lurker myself, but wanted to chime in on why people have been responding to your thread the way they have.

    My first thought when reading through this thread was that there’s no reason for you to be snarky just because you aren’t hearing what you want to hear from some of the other members of this forum.

    No one was insinuating that you wouldn’t be a good owner to one of the Nihon Ken. There’s not enough information presented to give a clear insight into that regard so no one can make that judgment… nor have they. There’s absolutely no reason why you should go on the defensive about this. Everyone is simply trying to explain why your nonchalance about your possible new addition is not only unwelcome amongst most every breed enthusiast and breeder, but also why is it unacceptable period.

    From your original post you presented yourself in such a flippant manner that it really isn’t a wonder why people with more experience in these breeds were quick to question you and your motives for wanting one. If you’re going to be “happy with any of them”, then why is it the Nihon Ken specifically? Why not just go to the local shelter and pick a random mix? Why not buy from that hobby breeder down the road with the working farm dogs? Why not get a happy-go-lucky retriever pup?

    All breeds are different. If the Nihon Ken were all the same then they wouldn’t be considered different breeds with different historical backgrounds. They’re all held to different standards and their breeders have varying expectations for each of them. You just simply can’t point at the first one you come across and expect it to be a good fit for you and your lifestyle.

    Overall the fact that you think all of the Nihon Ken breeds are the same is reason enough for people to question you on your willingness to share your life with one. For example, if all of them are the same to you, what is your drawing line for wanting a Hokkaido versus a Kai Ken? The two are virtually polar opposites on the native breed spectrum from what I’ve come to understand. My only guess is their appearances are what have drawn you to them when compared to the other breeds, and I can say for a fact that appearance is never what should be prioritized when choosing a dog breed. Nor should you choose one over the other simply because, “It just seems easier to get.”

    Instead of asking about breeders and puppies you should instead really take the time to inspect your life before rushing to add a puppy, any puppy. Picking a breed isn’t about what you want, but what you need. The reason so many dogs are in shelters is because people buy the first puppy they see, without giving any thought as to what the breed actually needs from their prospective owner. Breeders of these dogs especially will be incredibly picky, and aren’t going to just throw a puppy to someone who comes along wanting one right that second. They’re going to want to know that you’ve done your homework, and that you’re 100% prepared for that specific breed.

    Literally everyone else had to do their research and make the effort to find the right breed for them and in turn had to prove themselves worthy to a breeder that usually has long waitlists. Your best bet is to listen to the other members on this forum. They aren’t here to be rude just because. They have actual experience to back up their words, so you should really respect their thoughts and take them to heart.

    Sure. You might just be an amazing owner for one of the Nihon Ken. I can’t say. I will say however, that if you have to boast about it as an excuse for why you can just interchange the breeds for whichever is available to you first and insist that breeders would be happy with you as a buyer for one of their pups without even having spoken to any of them… then I don’t think you’re anywhere near ready to get a puppy of any of the breeds at this point in time.

    But hey. I can't say for a fact. That's just the viewpoint I've garnered from your original post and your following responses.
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    I should be clear, if it's your intention to spay and you're not up for the responsibility, then by all means, spay your dog and don't breed. It's not for most people as it's a steep learning curve with extra work and responsibility. I would absolutely not advocate keeping a dog intact unless you have a breeder mentor willing to work with you.

    Before doing anything, I would contact local (by local I mean within NA) breeders, and do some proper research. I did not mean to imply that anyone who imports a dog should breed said dog. Importing is also not a way to sidestep the NA breeders or breed community, or get a dog more easily. The breeders in Japan are often very reluctant to sell their dogs overseas.

    I always suggest the casual owner obtain a dog domestically rather than import. It's easier, less expensive, your breeder will be available to support you, and it's much less of a risk. In fact, that should really have been the point of my original comments on importing. There is not much point in importing unless you're involved with a breeding program.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • Okay.
  • omgtainomgtain
    Posts: 240
    @LaurenSabino182
    There are 3 Kishu breeders in the United States.
    There are only 4 Kai Ken breeders I would ever consider a puppy from.
    There is only 1 Hokkaido breeder that has had a litter so far.
    There is I think 1/2 Shikoku breeder in the U.S. and 1 in Canada.

    I have met all of the breeds and have a Kai Ken. They are so different it isn't even funny. Different isn't bad. Its just different. I loved them all but I don't think a Shikoku would EVER fit in at my house. Kishu, maybe. Hokkaido can be a hit or miss, same with Kai Ken.

    Anyways. This forum is owned by a Nihon Ken breeder and many of us have NK and many are also breeders. In fact I think all of the reputable NK breeders are members of this forum. But we are more than just a forum, we are a community. We don't really know much about you. Most breeders won't even respond to an email inquiring when their next litter is. They want you to show you are dedicated. That you are really really interested. Or that maybe they want you to visit one of their puppies near by to find out if you know what you're getting yourself into.

    The last thing a breeder wants is someone who thinks they're qualified or over qualified for one of their puppies. Before I got Tavi I've only ever had German Shepherds and although I have lots of training knowledge and background, they were worlds apart. I wouldn't even compare Tavi to any other spitz breeds. Shes not like a Shiba. Shes not like a Husky. Nothing can prepare you. You'll just get frustrated.
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    Tain, Nare the GSD/Husky, and Tavi the Kaigirl!
  • Tain is right- meeting some of these breeds you are interested in IRL will go a lot farther in helping you know if they would fit well for you than just saying you've read everything.
  • I'm adopting a Jindo from a rescue in Tailand. Her name is currently Custard and she was saved from the dog meat trade.
  • @laurensabino182
    I know you're feeling defensive and insulted and I in no way whatsoever want to offend. I'm much to much of a pushover for discussions like this but I really had to chime in. I don't know your situation opr what went on behind the scenes but before you jump in please, please just read my experience. I'm not too proud to say I was a fool.

    Be careful. I know the feeling if wanting a dog so bad it hurts and being ready to grab the first thing that struts by. I was there. I got that dog. Yeah I was young and stupid and I thought I was doing the right thing by getting that little rescue puppy because I was in a good place to get another dog and I had the money saved and it seemed right and etc. etc. I went in with the best of intentions. I was going to get a rescue puppy and it was going to be beautiful.

    I got her alright. I picked the first rescue puppy that came my way because we'd always had rescues and never had trouble. I wasn't even looking for a specific breed. I just needed a dog.

    Thousands of dollars later, many tearful nights, and scared arms I still have her. And we were the only ones brave enough to keep her. My perfect puppy grew up to be a mentally ill trainwreck of a dog. Shes unpredictable when unmedicated and I know the meds are slowly ruining her liver and it hurts me every day to think of it but without them she is literally unmanageable. I can't even put into words the pain, physically and emotionally, of life with her. But I made my bed. I was the one who settled and now I deal with it. If you settle you need to be ready for the pain AND the consequences. Your the one whos going to look this *from what I can tell from your posts* spur of the moment dog in the eyes every day and live with her.

    THINK ABOUT IT THINK ABOUT IT THINK ABOUT IT. For the love of God and all things holy, think about it.

    I was better than most people and my girl is still alive today, despite everything. If you do this uou've got to be ready.

    *forgive the caps lock and grammer, will edit later. I need to go to my happy place for a while*
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  • I've corresponded with the shelter a lot, and I've been planning on getting another puppy since last summer. Custard is only 9 weeks old. I doubt she has many/any issues at all
  • @ayk is our member Jindo breeder and rescuer, and she knows the most about them here- if you are receptive to experienced owners' information, you can't go wrong with Ann when it comes to Jindos.
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    All the best with Custard. Here's hoping she's healthy and has had 9 weeks of positive experiences and socialization.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • The shelter is Soi Dog Foundation. They seem to be very popular. The only hiccup was that they won't allow me to crate train the puppy. They won't adopt dogs to people who say they'll crate their dogs, for whatever reason. They think it's abusive and cruel to put a dog in a "cage"
  • SixSix
    Posts: 86
    @Vulpesvulpes89 - sorry for coming into this thread without anything useful to say to the creator, but I just wanted to say I take my hat off to you for what you have done for your girl and for not giving up on her.
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    Owned by 3 Northern Inuits, 1 GSDx and 1 Hokkaido.
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    A Soi dog (street dog) from Thailand is unlikely to be a Korean Jindo. Instead, the dog is more likely to be a pariah dog with the upright ears and curled tail typical of the entire region.

    I think it a really bad idea for people to internationally adopt a pariah dog. You can't meet the dog before making the adoption. Can't test the dog with your Shiba.

    There are big risks associated with adopting a pariah dog. There's the unknown genetic temperament (I've heard of pups growing up to bite everybody in the family), and you miss out on early socialization to a Western environment due to the 4 months of age rabies quarantine (dogs terrified of going outside of the home).

    Instead, you might consider adopting an Asian spitz dog from a responsible rescue group within the U.S. that carefully evaluates their dogs and matches them into appropriate homes. A responsible rescue group will also be there to offer training support to you and be a safety net for the dog.

    An international group, that is apparently out-of-step with our ideas on crate-training, wouldn't be able to offer that. And due to the "international-ness", would not be able to be a safety net for the dog.

    Post edited by ayk at 2016-02-22 20:12:06
  • Dogs are hard to come by for adoption in MA. They're almost always shipped from the south. I just really want to help with the dog meat trade. I obviously hate all animal abuse but that hits me harder for some reason.

    So basically, I can't really adopt locally. I shouldn't adopt internationally, and NK breeders are next to impossible to find. And you're all giving me flack here over my OP. It's like you're all telling me to just get a fish or something.
  • It is a huge leap to go from "can't adopt locally" to "import a 'rescue'* from Korea." There may not be rescues with the breed of dog you want in your area, but there ARE needy dogs including Jindo in rescues in other parts of the country, much closer than Korea. And as @ayk pointed out there is a safety net, support, ability to return the dog if it just cannot work with your Shiba, etc. You will have none of that importing a dog.

    * I put rescue in quotes because I don't know this organization, but I DO know that sometimes people steal dogs and sell them overseas claiming they're rescues or saved from the meat industry.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
  • Whatever. Nothing seems to work with you guys.
  • People are only giving you advice and sharing their experiences because you seem rushed in your search to get another NK without getting to know each unique breed to the best of your ability to ensure that the right one would be a good fit with your Shiba. Throughout the thread, you've bounced around with 4-5 breeds you were interested in so it's understandable that people reading it would try to help. The last thing people want to hear about is a dog getting hurt or abandoned due to aggression and fights. This forum really is the best resource you can find when it comes to finding the right NK breeder so rejecting advice from the breeders themselves and going on the defensive only hurts your chances of ever getting one. I hope you would be able to open yourself up a little more so you can find the right dog for your next companion. Best of luck.
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    1) You don't need our approval to do anything. You're an autonomous adult and you can do whatever you want. You did come here and initiate a discussion with us, though, and we're not under any obligation to change our opinions to be more accommodating.

    2) I think what you're perceiving as criticism is just experienced people telling you things that you might wish someone had told you later on. If you make an incorrect assumption and someone else knows better, wouldn't you want them to tell you? I don't see why you wouldn't. I believe everyone in genuinely trying to be helpful.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • Based on what the OP posted in her intro, she can vote but she can't drink. Take it as you will. None of us have met her in person. We can only judge from incomplete information.

    There are some really great rescue organizations that are based overseas and some not so great ones. As far as I know, @curlytails is actually the member most familiar/involved with the overseas oragnizations that work with US adopters, but it seems that she is no longer active on this forum. She may still be reachable but from what I recall she is in academia and does fieldwork overseas so I suspect that she'd be difficult to reach.

    In the end the OP is the only one that can live her life and regardless of how her arrogance or defensiveness may abrade other members of the forum, as long as she's truly committed to taking care of the dog she will be adopting, I think that getting her dog from a rescue is way better than getting another mill dog or supporting the bybs that are sadly popping up for the other nk breeds.

    There's an aphorism that says that the foolish man does not learn from his mistakes, the average man learns from his mistakes, but only the wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Not everyone can be a wise man. As far as I can discern from this thread and her other posts, the original poster has little regard for whatever others may tell her. She is an adult and she has made her own assessments based on her situation, for better or worse. I think at this point it is probably more productive to be a good resource should she have any issues.

    Ps - Apologies for being a defeatist old member. Thanks to everyone for having the patience and taking the time to contribute valuable info for any future members who read this thread. Thanks to @vulpesvulpes89 for opening up about his/her personal and painful experience. Thanks to @ayk for always being a calm, cool, educated resource for info about jindos and the other east asian primitive and pariah breeds.

    Pps - @laurensabino182 - I know in your intro thread you said that you wanted a dog that had the spitz spirit but not as rambunctious and more demonstrative than your shiba. From my limited (but first person) experience with jindos, I can't say that they are less rambunctious in the least. If your dog is a pariah dog rather than a purebred jindo, as @ayk surmises, I'd say take extra care on the housebreaking and have lower expectations for demonstrativeness. I know folks who have taken on pariah dogs and it can be a difficult match depending on your expectations. Regardless, thanks for rescuing.

  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    There's a lot of great info here, I hope the OP will take the time to consider our experiencesso that she can make an educated decision. Given that she already has a Shiba, more thought needs to be given about a second addition than it would be if she didn't already have a dog.

    If you narrow down your breed choices, you will find that there are tons of good breed specific rescues with dogs the come from the New England and Tri-state area. Yes, I agree that many dogs are shipped up from the southern US, but that's not all of them. Besides, a southern US bred mutt is still closer than any import, with the benefit of local support.

    If you ever want to consider rescuing a Shiba, NYC Shiba Rescue is a great rescue and even if you don't want another Shiba, they could always use more volunteers and fosters.
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  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979

    Have you looked on petfinder.com? Lots of Asian spitzy breeds, and this one might actually be a nice dog.

    ie. https://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/34004309

    I don't know the rescue org, but here's a dog that your Shiba can meet.

  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    I could be missing something, but I'm not sure why getting a dog from the south is considered undesirable and the solution is to get a dog from even further away. Is there something about these southern dogs I don't know?
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • Heidi, I just have a soft spot for dog meat trade pups.
  • I've talked to that shelter actually about Jenny. The dog should be put down. She attacked the foster mom's toddler multiple times. She's dangerous and bad with cats, dogs, and children.
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    I see from your other posts that you decided a NK wasn't for you and you wanted a Blue Bay Shepherd or some other breed. Whatever happened with that?
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
    image
  • I had decided I wanted an Akita. But I can't own one because of my insurance.
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    I contacted the group that has Jenny after you posted.

    This is what they said about Jenny:

    BARRK is not a shelter but a foster based rescue. The child was not a toddler but a 7-8 year old child. Jenny had a bone and the child tried to grab it. Jenny growled and the child paid no attention. Her hand was bitten.
    We wanted Jenny crated until we could pick her up but the foster left her loose. The older child tripped over the dog in the middle of the night and got nipped. We do not feel this is reason for Jenny to be put down. i'm sorry your friend is passing such harsh judgement on a dog she knows nothing about! We however do not condone Jenny's behavior towards children. This is why she was sent into training. Jenny has no problem at all with other dogs. Jindos in general should never live with cats due to their high prey instinct.


    and when I inquired about the extent of the bite, this is what they said:

    One bite broke the skin. That was the bite when she had a bone. A bone she was given for the first time ever. The second incident was a nip and she didn't break the skin.



    If this is beyond your comfort level, that's fine. But realize this is not atypical of pariah dogs.
    Post edited by ayk at 2016-02-24 10:22:56
  • Well, the foster mom told me something different. She also mentioned she was food aggressive so maybe the bone situation was what that lady was referencing. I don't know.
  • omgtainomgtain
    Posts: 240
    You have to remember the foster mom is very bias because it was her children, so she probably over exaggerated.

    This behavior, IMO, can be seen in all dogs, but I believe is very prominent in Nihon Ken breeds. Many NK have 'stranger danger' and are wary of kids, especially if not socialized with them. They also have less tolerance than most breeds and are often very reactive. Tavi guards food and bones from other dogs, and runs from people except me who try to take things from her.
    image

    Tain, Nare the GSD/Husky, and Tavi the Kaigirl!
  • MirkaMMirkaM
    Posts: 1248
    WTF I just read?
    Kai will lay down its life to protect its master.
    photo banneri_zpsc6e1d74e.jpg
    Kennel Gekkoo No: http://gekkoonoen.webs.com/index.htm
  • Omgtain, true. My Shiba isn't food aggressive. Maybe I'm lucky.. Idk. I'm not really sure what all of you want me to tell you though. Thanks for the replies.
  • Probably a little biased on the subject but I thought I'd throw my two cents in anyways, just as a note for anyone who happens to see it. It is harsh and unwarranted to say the rescue who may or may not bite should be put down. Especially if you are looking for another spitz or particularly a rescue.
    Moving a dog from home to home is stressful, especially in a fostering situation where the foster parents are trying not to get too attatched or might not invest as much time training them as a forever home would. Jenny looks like some sort of Jindo-NK... thing (can't really tell for sure).
    Its a well known fact dogs like this can be food agressive or intolerant of inexperienced children in their face. They don't like dogs of the same sex and often see cats as food. (I turned down a purebred Akita pup from show lines as it was a female and my other two dogs are female. Just to much at risk there.)
    Expecting a dog like Jenny to like children, share food, love cats, and be a friendly park puppy goes against her nature.
    I'm not using experience from my girl Roe here but from. my Akita mix, Tin-Tin. @LaurenSabino182. It is probably for the best you will not be getting an Akita as they are the largest of the NK and they can, therefore, express these traits more... strongly than a smaller shiba.
    Anyway, bringing my Akita mix hope was an affair but I was more prepared for him than my little Roe-pig. He was food/toy agressive and had difficulty with other dogs as he had lived in an outdoor kennel his whole life. While he still can't eat with the two females in the house he can now share toys, be treated and play with Roe.
    He is a mix but there was agression in the house at first. A few teeth were shown and faces grazed the first several weeks. He still sleeps upstairs, eats seperately, and is never allowed to run-and-greet new dogs. But by working with all three of my dogs and finally getting Tin some basic training he is now the perfect behavior I can expect from an AKITA raised in his situation. He's not a pomeranian or a goldie. He is a 65 pound, very male, half breed dog that has a known tendancy to not be a pushover.
    He's not bad. He just acts like the breeds in him tell him to act.
    But I'm ranting now. Long story short, if you want a primitive breed your going to have to make allowances and shift YOUR point of view. There aren't bad dogs. They're just dogs, animals. They're intelligent and willful, but not malicious. You'll get the kind of pup you adopt. Not a miracle.

    Thank you to @violet_in_Seville and @six for your kind words. They mean a lot to me.
    image
    Post edited by Vulpesvulpes89 at 2016-02-24 14:43:58
  • Hey, the foster mom was the one who told me she thought the dog should be put down. I just said what she told me about the incidences and aggression. I've trained and worked with dogs my whole life. In many different venues. I've worked with Akitas and other spitz before. I understand dogs.
  • @omgtain - very true. I have a girl who was socialized with kids and loved them. It only took one or two incidents with children who wouldn't back off when I told them to (and my mistake in not being aggressive enough with them because I am loathe to make a child cry). The kids weren't even doing anything particularly bad, just trying to approach when it was clear she no longer wanted to interact with them. Now my dog has a zero tolerance policy and I have to be on super alert when we do things like go to farmer's markets. There are way too many kids with no sense and no manners who will try to touch a dog that is being carried or for instance, or hanging out under a table behind my legs. Once I caught a kid putting her tail in his mouth (back when she was more child tolerant and I was unwisely less vigilant).

    I suspect that NK overall just have higher standards for manners and lower tolerance for rudeness from people and other dogs.

    @vulpesvulpes89 - I think it is a really illuminating experience to share. It's easy to regard onself as above it all, too smart, too dedicated to make these kinds of mistakes in judgment. But the reality is that even the most experienced, educated, committed people will slip up now and then. There are always things that we can do better and if you close yourself off to that possibility you'll have a tough time learning. Even so, it's difficult thing for most people to admit when they have made a mistake or had less than stellar judgment. Hearing a firsthand account from someone who is being honest about it and not glossing over their part or the consequences is really valuable. A person reading about it can look at the experience and think deeply about what they can do to improve what they're doing. Or behave like a patronizing fool and dismiss perspectives like these thinking that these are not the sort of lessons that would ever apply to them.
  • Forgive me for my misquote. In the post the words sounded like they came from you, not a second hand source.

    I have no doubt you've had experience with dogs and Akita. I would hope the experience and input from others leads to a good end result.

    I just hope we don't condemn a dog with good prospects just for foolish mistakes or misunderstandings. Thats for all people, not just you or me.
    image
  • Well, now I don't know what to do. I wanted to get a puppy this year, but getting one from a breeder doesn't seem likely. And shelters aren't working out for me either.
  • omgtainomgtain
    Posts: 240
    Lauren what we ultimately want is for you to end up with a dog that fits you. A dog that won't cause stress on your life or may need rehoming in the future. Contact some breeders, get to know them, maybe someone will back out and decide it isnt the right time for a pup and you'll be next in line ...You don't know until you try.
    image

    Tain, Nare the GSD/Husky, and Tavi the Kaigirl!
  • I would never rehome a dog unless he hurt the dog I have now. Maybe I should just get another Shiba.. The breeder I got Buddha from is having another litter soon and he said I could have pick of the litter
  • That'd be hard to turn down- pick puppy! and you already have a relationship with the breeder, so that's really good. Do you like the parents of this litter? A pair of shiba would go together well, especially if opposite sexes.
  • The puppy would be buddha's half sister. The parents are really sweet, super affectionate and well trained. I do love Shibas, obviously, I just wanted a bigger dog.
  • One thing to take note of is although you may have a good relationship with Buddha's breeders, he has pinto markings that aren't standard for the breed and may indicate signs of a byb or mill. Look into his breeders more and make sure they are of a reputable source with proper health testing and breeding practices before deciding to get another puppy from them.
  • What on earth is wrong with his dogs and litters being AKC registered? And the pictures I have are the ones I took when I picked up my puppy. This is ridiculous.
    Post edited by LaurenSabino182 at 2016-02-24 18:08:44
  • He's a hobby breeder and only breeds once every two years. He has two AKC Shibas (Buddha's parents) that are his pets first. I have pictures of them and of Buddha's litter but I don't know how to post them here on my phone. The parents look like the classic red Shiba. Idk why Buddha and some of the other puppies ended up pinto, but most didn't.
  • maybe the pinto on Buddha is why the breeder wants to offer Lauren pick this time?
  • I don't think so. Buddha was pick of the litter last time. Everyone wanted him.. Someone even offered $3500. But the breeder wanted to keep him, then figured a third dog was too much for him. I just came around at the right time. The breeder just really likes me and thinks I'm a good owner. He also has a crush on my sister, so that could explain it too haha
  • I know pinto is a fault but I think it's striking. And the few people that know what a Shiba Inu is ooh and ahh over his markings.
  • I suspect that [primitive breeds] overall just have higher standards for manners and lower tolerance for rudeness from people and other dogs.


    QFT. So much truth.

    He's a hobby breeder and only breeds once every two years. He has two AKC Shibas (Buddha's parents) that are his pets first. I have pictures of them and of Buddha's litter but I don't know how to post them here on my phone. The parents look like the classic red Shiba. Idk why Buddha and some of the other puppies ended up pinto, but most didn't.


    The frequency of litters, number of dogs owned, being AKC registered, having photos, being "pets first", etc are not factors or qualifications for being a responsible breeder.

    http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_breedersandpetshops.php
    http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/checklist.html
    http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/checklist-for-responsible-dog-breeders.html

    Definitions of responsible breeder may vary but there are some examples above. You will find commonalities between them and AT A MINIMUM all of those criteria should be met. This is literally a list of minimum requirements, the absolute least a responsible breeder must do... a GOOD breeder would go above and beyond.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2016-02-24 17:59:49
  • I don't think there's anything wrong with hobby breeders. He's a good man, loves his dogs and puppies, and has been there for me anytime I've needed help. What's irresponsible about that?
  • What on earth is wrong with his dogs and litters being AKC registered?! And the photos I have are pictures I took when I picked up my puppy. This is ridiculous. First he was a puppy mill/back yard breeder and now he's irresponsible for not pushing puppies out of his dam like a machine. Jesus.
  • I think you're mistaking what we're trying to get across as us flaming your breeder or calling him a bad person. From what you've written, he seems like a nice guy that loves his dogs that just wants to breed puppies to experience the joys of having puppies once in a while. We're only saying his breeding practice is irresponsible for the fact that he isn't breeding to make the overall breed better, he's just breeding to have puppies and/or for mainly profit. Without things like health and temperament in mind, more dogs are at risk of being rehomed/euthanized for having aggression and health problems later.

    In regards to AKC registration, there's nothing wrong with it. What we're saying is that being registered with them doesn't mean anything when it comes to the quality of the dog. Sadly, much of the AKC's funding comes from puppy mills and byb registrations so that they can put a higher price tag on their pups to sell to uninformed owners.
  • He's rich, he has a freaking helicopter pad. He doesn't breed for any profit. Did I mention he turned down a prospective buyer for $3500. And as I also mentioned his dogs are healthy, and sweet, and well trained. You never even talked to the guy. You guys really think you know everything.
  • And if he was trying to make a profit, he would be breeding nonstop. You guys are making some contradictory comments here.
  • You're literally calling him a bad breeder because some of his puppies come out pinto. That is really crazy.
  • First, you guys gave me crap for asking about breeders. Then you have me crap for looking to adopt. Then for reiterating what a foster mom told me. Then you called my breeder a back yard breeder then irresponsible. You said he didn't breed for health or temperament when you had ZERO reason to. His dogs are beautiful, healthy, and well behaved. Same for his puppies. You're basing everything on a couple of pinto coated puppies. You guys act like you know everything.
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    I think you should just stop being defensive. Nobody's said anything insulting or rude. Being disagreed with is not the end of the world. Being wrong is not the end of the world, either.

    You were told the truth about breeders (that there's a waiting list and they expect you to know more about the breeds than you do).

    Nobody gave you crap for wanting to adopt. You were informed about potential issues you might not be aware of about your chosen dog (and pariah/spitz dogs in general).

    Then someone looked into the foster Jenny and got a different story (all second hand information, so everyone can trust whom they choose).

    The breeder may well be a backyard breeder by most people's definition. Typically, a breeder would actively avoid producing a pinto shiba. There's been a huge surge in backyard breeders producing shibas (be they AKC registered or not) and we've all seen them again and again and we've seen the dogs they produce. Whether this particular breeder is a BYB (which, of course, depends on one's definition), there are red flags and it's worth considering as a possibility. If you're OK with buying a dog from this breeder and you like this breeder, that's up to you. Nobody else has to like him.

    As for acting like we know everything, I would say that your major beef with us from the get-go is that we give you information where you lack information and by that definition, we know more about certain topics than you do. There's nothing wrong with being informed. That's not to say we're all perfect and we all know everything, but it's wise to acknowledge experience where you see it and at least consider it without getting defensive. We're all well-wishers trying to share our experience, that's all.

    Maybe you're having a hard time finding a dog because what you want doesn't exist. Your other threads indicate you want an obedient, attached, affection, velcro, non-rambunctious dog and that is essentially the opposite of all the breeds you've mentioned in this thread. Maybe a completely different breed/type is what you need. Of course, I can only speculate, but that's what it seems like to me.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
    image
  • yeah, like hell. No wonder I've heard bad things about this forum on other sites.
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    If you found a site with like-minded people, why not talk to them?
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
    image
  • And the only reason I'm "having trouble" is because breeders are hard to come by and so are suitable shelter dogs. But go ahead, backhandedly insult me more and then tell me you were never rude to me.
  • Because I figured a NK group could help me with s NK related question? Lmao
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    I wish you all the best in finding the dog you want and I sincerely hope it turns out well for you and the dog. Have a nice day.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
    image
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 2211
    @LaurenSabino182, every single post that has been written in response to you has been helpful and written with more restraint than I've known some of these people to normally exhibit.

    My first Shiba was from a notorious and infamous backyard breeder (RightPuppyKennel). I was on this forum before I got him. I saw the posts, saw the advice, and let my emotions get the best of me to get one to selfishly satisfy my immediate needs. While I love my dog and wouldn't trade him for anything in the world, I know full well what I did was impulsive and I have EXTREMELY LUCKED OUT compared to others who got dogs from the same breeder and 1.) spent large amounts of money in medical costs to treat their dogs 2.) ended up having to euthenize their dogs. All due to (severe allergies, neurological conditions, behavioral conditions, etc.). Many of these same people reacted EXACTLY like you did when they were told this very information about their dogs. Nobody likes being told their baby is ugly or that the Porsche they bought is really an overpriced Volkswagen.

    You don't have to take this advice and it may not be something you want to hear. But it's something any prospective NK dog owner should hear and needs to hear.

    I guarantee you that as you spend more of your life owning NK (other than the overly popular Shiba) you will come to a similar realization.

    Good luck to you and, like everyone, I do hope you find what you're looking for.
    Jesse Pelayo

  • Literally nothing I told you about the breeder could even come close to make it oaky for you to call him a byb. He barely breeds, is rich from his car restoration business, and has turned down offers on puppies for thousands of dollars if he doesn't like them. His dogs are bright, healthy, and beautiful. The only fault you can say about him at all- the ONE thing you're all basing this assumption on is my pinto marked dog. Which happens sometimes. I've studied the genetics. Out of the 6 puppies in the litter, two were pinto. The rest were classic, conforming red Shibas. Stop acting like you know everything about everything. You don't know my breeder or his dogs. 2 of his puppies from previous litters are actually therapy dogs. You don't hear about many Shibas doing that, huh? But you guys like to jump the gun and assume he doesn't breed for good temperament. How dare you. Get off your high horse or better yet- leave me alone.
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    better yet- leave me alone.


    OK
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
    image
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 3431
    I think the best course of action is to step away from this thread, take a month or two break and remake a similar thread if you're still interested. You're stuck on the defense right now regardless of what anyone says so there won't be any progress made.

    I've been a member here for 8 years and taken plenty of breaks when I got too hot headed. In the end the people here are great people with a lot to offer to you as a nihon ken owner. Most of them have looked past my tantrums as I matured through my 20s.
    -Rina
  • Nope, seems like anything I said would be given a negative response. I'm done with asking anything here. I've even had a couple of people PM me apologizing for these commenters and saying they've had similar experiences.
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1820
    There are a handful of very good rescues in New England. There are great rescues just outside of New England, in the northeast, too.

    Furthermore, if you want a puppy from a breeder - breeders will fly pups to you - to your choice of airport. I flew my pups from Boston to Denver and Los Angeles when I had my litter while I was in Providence - and there's more support if you go through a responsible breeder than there will be from an international rescue.

    No one is trying to tell you to get a fish or give up on a dog. If you want to adopt from the Soi Dog rescue, that's what you're going to do. We're just trying to get you to think before you jump in. Many people here have very honest concerns and a lot of experience with these breeds.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • I've been thinking about getting a second dog since I got my first one over a year ago. And I don't plan on getting one in five seconds. I just said in "2016" that could be this summer or November. I'm not jumping into anything. I never said I was.
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 3431
    Nope, seems like anything I said would be given a negative response. I'm done with asking anything here. I've even had a couple of people PM me apologizing for these commenters and saying they've had similar experiences.


    Take your own advice. "Stop acting like you know everything about everything." Don't tell me nope. You say it seems. I'm telling you what it is. Why does your assumption trump what I know? See, this is exactly what I mean. I'm trying to help you yet you're still lashing out.

    -Rina
    Post edited by okiron at 2016-02-24 22:55:50
  • "Don't tell me nope" what are you, my mother? thanks for the "help" but I want this thread to die. If you actually give a shit, PM me.
  • FYI - this forum was (to the best of my recollection) about having a community for those interested in breed preservation. As the various NK breds have come more into the public consciousness, it has attracted members who are not primarily invested in breed preservation, but I would say that is still the interest of the core members that post.

    That is the context for how most members here define "responsible" and "good" breeders: breeders who have a good idea of standard, and are looking to improve, preserve, and educate with an eye for the very many variables that come into those efforts. Not everyone agrees about the best way is to go about that but there are a few criteria that most people agree on and more consensus when it comes to the breeds with a larger gene pool (like shibas).

    You may be too angry to read this and maybe everyone assumes that you already know because you've read a lot of threads in your research but I think it would be helpful to list these things for any new members reading the thread in the future. I also think outlining these things is more useful than discussing these things since different folks may have completely different ideas of what the terms responsible breeder, byb, etc entail.

    - testing for common inheritable ailments such as hip dysplasia, luxating patella, and glaucoma. Tests are conducted at two years of age or older and registered with OFA (orthopedic foundation for animals). CERF tests are done for the eyes but are a predictor for other eye issues aside from glaucoma. Pennhip is an alternative test for hips. Probably more helpful with a large population like shibas. Shiba breeders that go beyond the typical also have been doing gonioscopies (which can be a predictor for one type of glaucoma: narrow angle glaucoma) and thyroid testing before breeding. There is also an additional test for hokkaido and akita inu. (Can someone chime in on this or link me, I can edit this post. I can't recall off the top of my head). This is a criteria that mostly applies to North American breeders. Ther are threads and posts about the cultural differences when it comes to health testing. For breeds with a narrower gene (kai ken, shikoku, hokkaido, kishu, jindo come to mind) breeders have to make difficult decisions sometimes. There can be trade offs but testing is still done.

    - solid grasp of the genetic background for each of their dogs used for breeding, usually extending back several generations (less detail is expected if there are imports from Japan in the pedigree: sometimes detailed information about temperament, health issues, offspring is just not available).

    - solid grasp of the standard both in the home country and Japan. Ideally the standard would be the same. Really good breeders can tell you the ways in which the home country standard deviates from the one in Japan. This generally also entails interacting with others in the breed community.

    - A clearly articulated vision and mission for their breeding program and how it contributes to breed preservation or how and why it improves on the current gene pool. A good breeder can articulate this in detail. Everyone may have a slightly different interpretation of what betterment or improvement means but there are specific reasons why two dogs will be put together to get what is hopefully a better dog.

    - involvement in the breed community (this ties back to one of the earlier points). Good breeders are also still always in the process of learning about their breed. Meeting with others in the community provides different perspectives conducive to learning and growth. Breeders are involved with working their dogs, sports, or conformation. I think a good breeder is also involved with rescue because they care about the breed overall, and not just their own dogs.

    I may be missing some stuff, but those are some of the main criteria of what being a good breeder means to most members of this particular forum.

    [edited to add]
    The hokkaido test is for collie eye anomaly (CEA). Thanks @lindsayt.

    Also a correction since the diseases that I was thinking about for Akitas, SA and VKH, as far as I know there is no predictive testing. Affected dogs are tested afterwards.
    Post edited by violet_in_seville at 2016-02-25 10:18:20
  • Okay, and how do you know my breeder didn't do all of those things? These people called the breeder I went to bad with the only reason being 2 of his puppies came out Pinto. How is that not laughable?.. Y'all don't even know his name.
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