My Hokkaido Experience with Kita Yume
  • Hi everyone,
    I was just reading Krisz's post about her experience with Hokkaidos and wanted to throw in mine.

    Yume (bitch) has been a handful to say the least. She will be 3 this coming January and this is what I have found.

    First of all is pretty good with Kazuko (my wife) and , but I would absolutely NOT trust her around other people, she will bite! It is funny because I was warned by a Akita breeder about Hokkaidos, but I thought he was just trying to sell me an Akita. As I said she is mostly good with us, but still mouthy and does not hesitate to nip at me whenever she wants something.
    * If you are thinking about a Hokkaido please remember you may be in a situation where children and other people are not welcome in your home.

    The next thing is her prey drive which is totally off the charts. She is a hunter and goes into hunting mode as soon as she smells something which is pretty much always, She discovered a cat across from our house and she is totally obsessed with it. She chewed a hole in our blinds so she can peer out and watch for the cat and when she sees it all hell breaks loose.
    She has managed to kill a few squirrels, birds and is also a great mouse hunter. She hunts mice in the grass or under the snow and does it exactly the way a fox does, pretty cool actually.

    Also, she is not very good with other dogs. We socialized her so much as a pup, but as she got older play fighting would easily turn into a fight and now if for some reason she doesn't like the other dog she is very much the aggressor and will really attack the other dog.

    Finally, it took a while, but after a year or so became much more affectionate to us and does always want to be close by. I wanted a dog that would love the outdoors, be a bit of a guard dog and an overall good companion. I got what I wanted, but have to work very hard to keep her away from other dogs and also people which can be stressful sometimes. Yume is so cute and people think she must be gentle so we have to be very careful not to let people try to touch her or I am afraid we will have a law suit on our hands.

    So, yes we love Yume and love having her, but I would NOT recommend this breed if you have or are thinking of having children or if you like to entertain at home. They are a lot of work and need to be carefully monitored.

    If anyone has any questions I would be happy to answer.
    P1100170
  • Where did the HTML code move to on Flickr??
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3422
    Wow, being human aggressive or bad with the family is so untypical of the breed and not my experience having met a few Hokkaido now and raised a litter (although they are very young still). Have you taken her to training or a behaviorist?

    I will say that they are exuberant greeters and mouthy, but it is a joyful expression imo and no more over the top than Kishu or Shikoku or Shiba. Have you had her thyroid checked? I can see how puppies that are not well socialized could definilty become fear biters, but that is totally not something I would consider to be "normal" with this breed. At least not with my girl (she loves people).

    That's too bad, I'm sorry you are having trouble with her...it's been a long time since you posted. I assume she is spayed?
    info@hokkaidoken.org
    www.hokkaidoken.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
    Post edited by lindsayt at 2015-11-04 00:16:31
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1906
    I think using just the embed option should work. It was working for me just a little bit ago.

    20150815_142647

    This link might help with being able to share photos from Flickr. One user mentions that when you copy the embed information if you change "true" to "false" it might work.

    So isntead of this...

    < a data-flickr-embed="true"

    You'd do this?

    < a data-flickr-embed="false"

    Which seems to work from me (sorry for the Meitou photo).

    20150815_142647

    I also noticed that in the embed code is the code with the "img src" tag and I just discovered that if I copy and paste just that part it also works.

    20150815_142647

    --

    Anyway, I'm sorry to hear that Yume has been pretty tough. In some ways Meitou has been pretty tough, too, so I feel you on that bit. Although in some areas Yume does sound like she might be more difficult in some areas. Maybe I should write a "life with Hokkaido" post, too, just to get more information out there.
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
    Post edited by WhoBitMe at 2015-11-04 11:28:39
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1762
    I'm sorry you're having troubles with Yume! :( I am glad to see an update on her! I love the Hokkaido breed and enjoy reading about them.

    I haven't followed Yume's story closely, but have you ever consulted with a CAAB about her behavior? When I realized TK bites strangers after getting him, I went and just had a consult to get a professional, educated opinion and a game plan. I haven't found it particularly difficult to keep him away from strangers or dogs, I guess - but then again, my first dog was a VERY dog-aggressive Malamute with resource guarding issues. The NK are all significantly smaller than that, so I know my opinion on what is "difficult" is skewed. :\

    I don't think the breed should be generalized from the habits/behavior of one individual. If I told people to expect Shikoku to be like TK, everyone would think they were dangerous man-eaters... and that just isn't the case. That said, it's good to have your experiences with Yume out there in the open.

    I've absolutely adored every Hokkaido I have met - even Katana, who barked right in my face and ran away. Genko, from my experience, is not like Yume at all - and Meitou, despite warnings, has been nothing but a gentleman as far as I can see. ;)
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1906
    I know. Meitou often makes me look like a liar around NK forum people. I promise, he's really very naughty, lol.

    @jeffnkazuko I know you outlined a lot of difficulties about Yume in your original post. And you did mention she got more affectionate as she got older. Maybe you could also provide some of the fun things you've done with Yume? Sometimes it is useful for people interested in the breed to know, say, what sorts of activities a dog enjoys, etc.?
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1762
    @WhoBitMe - I suspect that NK people kind of expect a certain level of "naughtiness". I observed at the Invitational just what I saw at the VT NK meetup that I went to - people were generally ok with dogs being somewhat reactive as long as the owners were savvy and recovered from dogs doing Dog Things pretty quickly... and we all kind of go into it knowing that the dogs might be reactive to something or another... so it's not that I don't believe you.

    I feel like I make TK out to be a bigger monster than he is... but that's because he has and will bite strangers and he does draw blood if he can... so I'd rather paint him villainous than see someone come in and get hurt.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • omgtainomgtain
    Posts: 240
    and Meitou, despite warnings, has been nothing but a gentleman as far as I can see. ;)


    QFT.
    image

    Tain, Nare the GSD/Husky, and Tavi the Kaigirl!
  • Hey guys,

    I said even with her troubles we really enjoy having her. We take her pretty much everywhere with us and she loves getting into the woods or mountains and even loves riding in the canoe.

    Her two big downfalls are her prey drive and her obsessiveness. Here is the best example I can think of.
    Yume noticed a cat outside once which put her into a mad frenzy of howling and almost smashing through a window to get it. Since then she has chewed a whole in the upstairs and downstairs blinds so she can sit and watch for the cat, I mean she will try to stay awake all night looking for this damn cat and of course when she sees it goes crazy again. Yesterday, I saw the cat was standing on top of our fence looking into our yard. The fence is just over 6 feet tall and when Yume noticed the cat she unbelievably almost got it. I can't believe how high she jumped and was trying to claw into the wood to get higher, damn cat was pretty surprised as well. Now of course she wants to go out and stare at the top of the fence all day.
    The same goes when we get into the woods for a hike, she just wants to track something, yesterday she was going nuts as we got back to my truck, but I didn't see anything around and of course about 100 meters up the road were 3 whitetails which again drives her into a mad Hokkaido howling session.

    Anyway as I said she is very challenging, but we love having her. We don't have kids or a lot of people coming over so it isn't too bad. I don't want to criticize the whole breed, but when I was in Hokkaido most owners told us not to try to get too close to their dogs. I am sure this was to prevent losing a finger to two.

    P1090644



  • OK, getting there with the pictures. These ones are pretty recent.
    IMG_1156

    P1090621

    P1090729

    P1090753



  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1762
    I know it's not funny, but the description of her cat experience made me laugh - only because we call that "Kishu Code Red" in my house. They can jump about 6-8 feet and are very quick at digging out of the yard if they see an animal they want, but it is always prelude by this very high pitched whine - and god forbid they CAN'T get the thing they want. Then it's a nuclear meltdown of jumping and screaming at the top of their lungs - or, at least, that's how it is with my younger Kishu... but they are from primarily hunting lines, so I knew what I was getting into when I got them.

    I think the worst was over my road trip to California when they both took off after a critter on mount Shasta. One jumped right out of the Jeep window to give chase. :/ that was all my fault, tho...

    Fortuneately, my Kishu are very people-friendly to offset their intensity. My Shikoku, by comparison, isn't as intense as my Kishu, but WILL hurt strangers if given the chance.


    I think with all the bad publicity on the Hokkaido breed, people are just a little twitchy and sensitive about when more is written or put out there.

    And lol! I love the pictures of her with her head in the holes. LooKS like a familiar sight, to me - my younger Kishu is always sticking her face in holes she finds or creates.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1906
    The picture of Yume with her head in the hole reminds me of Meitou. He will stuff his nose into mouse holes when we go by the fields where he likes to chase mice. I've not been able to get a picture of it as I'm always attached to his leash...which means he is yanking me back and forth over the field as he plays whack-a-mole with the mice....he has always lost so far.
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
  • KajaKaja
    Posts: 177
    I had read some really nice things about the Hokkaido being friendly, pleasers, easier to train, etc! hmm
    Post edited by Kaja at 2016-07-26 03:24:25
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1762
    I made a video and tortured my Kishu just for you guys. I'll upload it here later, when I'm home. ;)

    I think that some of this behavior is inherent to the medium sized breeds, and the closer the breed/individual is to its roots, the stronger/more intense the behavior. That's a big generalization, tho.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1906
    @Crispy I'm looking forward to it.

    @Kaja I can't really speak for all Hokkaido, since my size sampling is small (Meitou, Genko, and Genko's puppies). And I mostly speak from my experience with Meitou since I've only met Genko twice (and puppies are just sweet puppies!).

    From my experience, I like the Hokkaidio personality though meitou's reactivity has stressed me out a lot (not as badly now that I've had some help from trainers, but still does to an extent). I would still be open to owning another Hokkaido down the line, but I have several family members who are convinced I should never own another even though they do like Meitou a lot.

    Meitou is very friendly with his people and people he knows SUPER well or likes a lot. And as long as people obey the rule of "do not pet him" until Meitou gives a pretty clear indication (to me) that others can pet him then he's actually fine around people. I've taken him to an anime convention with huge crowds and he has done great. He really doesn't care than much about people unless they invade his space. So, friendly, but with stipulations. On the flip side, from what I have seen of Genko, she's much more friendly. She also will steal your chicken treats all day long if you let her. ;)

    Meitou is in it for himself, but he does seem willing to do things I ask. He isn't a people-pleaser like my Border Collie was, but he is actually very happy to work with me and learn things and he has been pretty easy to train in a lot of ways. He picked up his wave trick after watching my Border Collie do it once. Granted, some things are tougher for training--like his reactivity to other dogs--but even then he hasn't been too bad. Once we got into it he picked up on behaviors really quickly there. There are certain spots in my neighborhood where there are what I call the "dog hot spots." Basically the houses that have annoying dog tendencies *they're out loose, they rush Meitou, they bark at him a lot). Meitou is like an elephant and never forgets, but in some of these places where he has been getting treats he will now look at me expectantly, waiting for his treats as we walk down the road....even when there aren't any dogs! He's figured out they are "treat spots," lol. So yeah, he's smart and willing to work but he can be pretty stubborn if he wants to be.

    I remember someone saying previously on the forum...@TheWalrus maybe... that show line Hokkaido in Japan are bred to be a bit more reactive because it is impressive in the ring? I don't remember exactly so don't quote me on that.

    So Hokkaido are majorly wonderful, but they are also be majorly demonic, lol.

    Edited a bunch because I kept forgetting words. *sigh*
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
    Post edited by WhoBitMe at 2015-11-06 18:50:32
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1906
    Oh, and I suppose one of the hardest things about training Meitou is that he isn't really all that food motivated. He's picky! LOL But I think that's more of an individual thing anyway.
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1762
    This is really bad to do, but I thought it was a good video to show what happens on the regular with Fionna when she sees something she wants... @WhoBitMe @JeffnKazuko - is Yume a bit like this? This isn't really as bad as Fi can be, since she's on a leash, but it's a taste...

    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
    Post edited by Crispy at 2015-11-06 20:34:22
  • WhoBitMe Meitou sounds a lot like Yume. She can be in crowds, but as you say if someone were to invade her space there might be trouble.
    Yume won't go out of her way to pick a fight with a dog, but she is always the instigator when it happens and never for any apparent reason. She also has that elephant memory and was easy to train, but getting her to do something isn't all that easy. If there is nothing in it for her she rarely listens. Have a great treat in your hand and she will follow your commands like a soldier.

    Crispy: That video is EXACTLY Yume! Every time she sees a cat, rabbit, deer or whatever she goes crazy just like that. It take a good while to get her to calm down afterward as well, her heart races and to be honest I feel sorry for her. Yume almost jumped out the window of my car the other day as well. We were going up a hill and Yume notice 3 deer grazing and decided to chase them!

    Dogs are such fun!!
  • omgtainomgtain
    Posts: 240
    This sounds kind of horrible, but our neighbor had a woodpile that had lots of shrew, mice, rats, etc. I trained Tavi's recall by having her on a long line and teasing her with the wood pile.
    I'd make sure she was 10-15ft away from it, pulling and very intense, but the moment she broke her focus on it, and looked back at me for a second, I took my foot off the long line and let her have it. I gradually asked for more.. her stepping towards me, coming half way towards me, coming all the way towards me, etc.

    needless to say i trained her to be a killer by listening to me.
    image

    Tain, Nare the GSD/Husky, and Tavi the Kaigirl!
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3422
    For Genko, I have had her about 5 months now, and she has a really outgoing personality and is very social towards dogs and people, loves food, loves to work for people, low prey drive (at least towards small animals and chickens). During her first few weeks with me, I did push her too fast to integrate until I recognized she was still highly stressed from her prior home and grouchy in heat, so I backed off with integration thinking she could never be with my Shiba girls, and just focused on getting her to hit her "reset" button, where I gradually re-introduced freedoms and got her comfortable with a solid routine. So I did have to heavily manage her at first.

    She does constantly surprise me however. Once she was out of heat and puppies were weaned, she really settled down and really craves interactions with the other dogs and people. She sleeps happily in a crate at night, goes on errands with me during the day, and is a great playmate for the younger dogs here. If my schedule allows this fall, I think she would be a fantastic agility/flyball dog since I don't have to worry about her bringing bugs home to the puppies now.

    In spite of her drawbacks, which are few imo (the biggest is barrier frustration/anxiety which has improved immensely during her slow integration here) I'm really glad that she was bred and given the chance to pass on her very social temperament to her puppies. Umma, her daughter and Retar her male puppy, have very social dispositions and I hope they can carry on the line and produce Hokkaido with steady friendly natures. A couple of the puppies are a little more hesitant, but not excessively so, and have other nice features that help me to overlook them being a bit shy, such as not being very vocal and being more laid back.

    Most are outgoing and all are sweet, but it will be up to their new owners to keep up with socializing them and working on impulse control. The people local to me who are getting puppies were required to have private training in place before purchase and those homes were more than happy to do that, so I think that will really help get the puppies and owners on the right path and equipped to deal with issues that arise. Time will tell. Anyways, I think there is naturally going to be a range in temperaments for this breed, as with the other breeds, and it will be up to the fanciers here to select for the traits that work for owners here, with respect to what is "correct" in Japan. I am pretty sure what I want to see more of in the breed in terms of temperament...I'm glad that Genko can be a part of that, and Yezo too. He's a doll.

    Things I would change: greater impulse control and reduced barrier frustration/separation anxiety. Also, Hokkaido puppies (at least 6 all at once) have been a challenge to house train. They are puppy pad trained, but nowhere near as tidy as Shiba puppies of the same age and they do make quite a mess overnight.

    But OMG they are easy-peasy to bathe and groom compared to Shibas.
    info@hokkaidoken.org
    www.hokkaidoken.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
    Post edited by lindsayt at 2015-11-07 04:35:56
  • would you say they are more "easy-peasy Lemon Squeezey" or more of a "easy peasy Mac and Cheesey?"
    photo Picture 3_zps4y5sotml.png Kai to the Core!
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1977
    Fionna's video reminds me of the dogs that were at lure-coursing this weekend.

  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1762
    @ayk - I want to start lure coursing with Fionna! She's never been. I think she'd love it. Nami was pretty into it, too, until she realized the bag was plastic, lol.

    @JeffnKazuko - maybe you can look into lure coursing with Yume? It's a great sport for them to have a bit of fun at and burn some energy/use their drive. I was really nervous to have Nami off leash when we tried it, but it worked out well for us. And there's no real interaction with people except for you! :)
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 506
    None of this discussion sounds out of character for a primitive breed.

    LOL @ayk, I was thinking the same thing ;)
    Example - here's my Shiba's first time lure coursing


    @lindsayt, it's really cool to hear about your experiences with Genko's litter. I always love the comparisons to the Shibas! :) I do recall that Brad didn't consider Genko very good with children and antisocial, so even in an experienced home the same dog can be completely different. Also - this is a bit off topic, but how did you manage Genko's separation anxiety along with isolation in the beginning (I'm dealing with a similar situation right now).

    For the rarer breeds, I'm curious how a Western interpretation of character is changing them. I definitely have opinions on what temperament quirks I find undesirable.

  • @zandrame -

    For the rarer breeds, I'm curious how a Western interpretation of character is changing them. I definitely have opinions on what temperament quirks I find undesirable.


    I think this would be a REALLY interesting topic! Would you make a new thread on it so we can all jump in and keep this thread about Hokkaido? I really want to go there, but Im leery of derailing Yume's topic over it.
    photo Picture 3_zps4y5sotml.png Kai to the Core!
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1906
    I think Yume must have a higher prey drive than Meitou. He's never destroyed anything or become obssessive about any huntables he sees. We have actually walked within fifty feet of several deer and he didn't even notice. He was too busy smelling pee! :-/ And usually he recovers from things pretty well. He's over dog fights or other upsets pretty quickly...usually. If he doesn't get over it quickly he gets removed and has a timeout. If Meitou needs a timeout then he typically needs one that's between 10 to 15 minutes, otherwise he picks up right where he left off, lol.

    Meitou also has quite a bit of anxiety (medication has helped some), but I also feel like he picks up AMAZINGLY well on any emotionas I am feeling, including anxiety. So we're like some sort of infinity loop feeding off one another's anxiety if I'm not careful, lol. And I do think he has some barrier frustration issues to some degree.

    @jeffnkazuko Out of curiosity, how does Yume do at the vet? I'm just wondering because Meitou is a heinous monster with vets.

    @zandrame I agree with @WrylyBrindle Your discussion idea sounds interesting!
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
    Post edited by WhoBitMe at 2015-11-09 11:32:16
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3422
    Genko loves people, she isn't antisocial at all. I know she went to Meet the Breeds and I have taken her to dog shows and class and she is eager to get involved. She enjoys most of the other dogs as well. I see her mainly as having impulse control issues with children where she would jump and grab hands or clothes...she suffers from over exuberant greetings I should say, where the Shibas can be more reserved and dainty about where they put their feet.

    "For the rarer breeds, I'm curious how a Western interpretation of character is changing them. I definitely have opinions on what temperament quirks I find undesirable."

    This would be a fun topic to discuss!

    I could continue here about my experience with the Hokkaido litter to date, or I can make a new thread so as not to derail.
    info@hokkaidoken.org
    www.hokkaidoken.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com

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