Body Language: play vs. fight?
Where: a large, one bedroom apartment with three rooms open for doggy play (including the kitchen where the water and food are)
Who: Kobe, the neutered male; Kitsune, the neutered male; Tsuki, the spayed female
When: 6 times yesterday, 0 and counting today (which started 21 mins ago)
Why: who the hell knows
-we are trying to monitor every interaction between Kobe, foster, and Kitsune, resident. It is not easy. We have Kobe on a leash 24/7 just so its easier to pull him out if a fight starts. We also have him on a lead trying to perceive any actions that Kitsune might think are "rude". Also, we're working on letting Kobe know we are in charge using the lead.
Kobe is also crated at night in our bedroom, Kitsune is not - he usually sleeps under the bed.
Kitsune has free run of his house. When Kitsune approaches Kobe, it seems that it will result in hair standing on Kitsune, and either a play stance (face to ground, butt in air, barking a bit) or a fight (he starts growling and nipping).
But their 'fights' (which seem to only be a lot of dramatic noises and no real injury) come out of NO WHERE, mostly during what I perceive as play for a couple minutes than BOOM - fight! I believe Kitsune starts them, but again its so fast, even watching makes it hard to tell.
What is the difference or tell-tale signs of a fight vs. male dogs playing????
(and in all of this, Tsuki has not been involved in one fight with either of them)
Comments
I think all of them should be crated at night, should eat in their crate, and should be separated from each other probably with baby gates in the house. I would use Gentle Leaders on all of them too for most of the day to do obedience training with. I would exercise them until they are beyond tired. I would feed Tsuki first, Kit second, and Kobe last. Make them do obedience before they eat. Only feed them twice a day, no community bowls. **Make them do obedience before you give them attention.** Do stand on the leash exercises. They will respect you real quick. Do all that for a month or two and then reintroduce them slowly and make them earn their privileges. *Buy books on animal behavior to learn the difference in play and aggression, I did and it's helped me a lot.* Don't let them get on the couches or the bed, and no toys until the work for them. That's how I would do it, but I'm sure you will get tons of other good ideas.
but how do you notice a tail up on a shiba with a curled tail?!?
Thank you so much for the info Kelly - we are taking your advice regarding feeding, when where how, and the pecking order of feeding.
Why, based on what I said, did you say to feed Tsuki 1st, Kitsune 2nd and Kobe 3rd?
Also, Kitsune is 'rubbing' against Kobe a lot, when he walks by him, he will lean into him but keep walking, and then do it again. What is that?
I'll try to get the 'rubbing' on video, its strange. appears to be friendly but has turned confrontational
We've seen a vast change in just 3 hours of changing how WE interact. I feel like I've cheated my two shibas because they have not been trained properly by me! Starting today at 7.21am they are!
So far, no fight today, which in 3 hours time is a major improvement over yesterday. we put them in their crates with their food, Tsuki 1st then Kitsune than Kobe. Left them to eat for 20 mins, only Kobe ate. Took them away in their order. Left them in the crate for another 10 mns. Then took them out, in order, made them sit, harnessed them up, gave them some affection and leashed them, one by one. Then for our hour walk, Tsuki and Kitsune were in front, walked by John and I was in back with Kobe (who is awesome on the leash!) Is that the right way to walk??
Anyway, we brought them in, unhooked them in order, made them sit and gave affection, let them get water in order.
Then we let them play a bit, took them aside individually when they wanted affection and made them sit first. And if one was invading that personal time, we said "NO" and pushed them away.
Now they are sleeping, all in seperate rooms on their own accord.
Peace, for the moment, but peace nonetheless.
I think I have to remember to be calm and positive 100% of the time, and not worry about a fight breaking out.
2 days down, tons to go! A real work in progress, but I'm hopeful.
Its just so interesting, and confusing, to watch their interactions with one another.
We're also proactively working with Kitsune and trust. I don't think he believes we will protect him and gets anxious when he shouldn't have to be. I truly believe most of the aggessive issue is with him and not being as confident as the other two.
Jen, you sound like you are doing everything very well so far. I guess with a Shiba you might want to look for more stiffness in the tail because it is curled, because you are right, it is hard to tell with this breed! I know when Taj gets aroused by something, she moves her tail back and forth rigidly like in a "tick, tock" fashion. I got this e-mail from my co-worker regarding aggressive signs, and also what is called a "calming signal" in dogs. When dogs want to avoid confrontation, they will do things like distraction sniffing(sniffing for something invisible on the ground), licking their lips, circling, etc. I will post it on here tomorrow, I need her to re-send it to me, it's very informative!! You can learn what these calming signals are and even do them back to your dog to reassure them in a tense situation.
I always feed Kohji last because he is the biggest trouble maker out of my 3. News is clearly the leader of the 3 and the calmest in nature so I feed him first, then Taj, then Kohji. When a dog in a pack doesn't respect you, he needs to have everything last, and be at the bottom of the totem pole. If you keep a close eye on them and start to figure out who makes the most trouble and starts the fights, whichever dog that is,needs to eat last. I'll tell you what though, when I first got News, I fed him last because I didn't know how he was going to fall into rank with my other two, and now I have switched and feed Kohji last. Tsuki sounds like a good girl, she doesn't make trouble so she can eat first, I just wouldn't be feeding either of the fighting dogs first. Some people may not agree with this theory, but I think it works to a certain degree, and wild dogs in a pack always eat in order of their rank.
The rubbing might be Kit trying to be dominant over Kobe, to a certain degree. Maybe not. I know my dog News body slams, rubs, and pushes Kohji out of the way a lot and Kohji and Taj never do this to News or each other. It sounds like Kit is pushing his limits with Kobe and getting in his space saying "What are you gunna do about it?" Or it could just be him trying to play with him.
Remember to keep things like this up and don't let them get off easy, do these exercises for seriously weeks to a month or two.
I'm gonna be honest here, and a bit contradictory to what others wrote, in our pack we don't play the order game. We don't feed in any particular order, we don't try to adjust the dogs order when entering or leaving a door and we don't do this for water or toys either. Its really just to hard to know 100% for sure who is above who in the pack order and if you are enforcing the wrong order then you are actually creating more strife in the pack. Also, the pack order is constantly changing with our dogs. And the pack order can be different for different things.
The best way to circumvent issues in the pack is to not allow them to happen to begin with. If we leave or go upstairs when the dogs are out we put the dogs that could cause an issue in a gated of section of the house or in a pen/crate so we know there will be no issue - this even applies if we go upstairs for 3 minutes.
If there is an issue that happens, like a fight or something we are not ok with, we remove the dogs that are having the issue and put them in crates or pens for a "time out". We have found timeouts are the VERY BEST way to discipline Shibas because the worst thing for a Shiba is not getting attention or being allowed to play.
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As for what exactly to look for in fight "body language," I think Kelly summed that up perfectly. Movement becomes stiff, and quick and the general expression on the dog's face changes.
how do you know when it will become a fight? I dont want to interupt all interaction, but we have been doing timeouts.
I agree its hard to see what the order is or is become with the 3 of them, but as Tsuki has a higher tolerance level and hasn't started a fight yet, I'm feeding her first anyway.
They are all eating dinner in their crates. My two were not used to not having a community bowl and skipped breakfast but were all too willing to get this meal!! I like it - no more community bowl!!! I can't believe I felt bad for them changing that habit.
When is it safe to feed them outside their crate? OR is it good practice to always do that?
Well, Isaac just kindly smashed the keyboard, deleting a big long message, so let's see if I can replicate it.
I'm inclined to agree with Brad as far as doing things "in order". First of all, I think that contrary to popular belief, pack structure is not linear. I don't think it goes Dog 1, then Dog 2, then Dog 3, and so on. In wild packs there is a dominant male/female pair and the rest of the dogs are middle class after that. Some have an overall lower standing, but not in a "totem poll" sort of way. What I have observed with my own dogs (this stood out more when I had three dogs, but holds true for two) is that one might be the boss of one thing, but not another. For instance, Tojo is the boss of who gets to lay on the window sill and Rakka gets first dibs of the water dish. Not that these rules are set in stone. They break the "rules" all the time and they change constantly without me knowing why or having any way to predict when they'll change.
Another thing is that I want to be in control of the resources. If I decide to give Tojo a treat, for instance, then Rakka should respect my decision to do so. I used to always give treats to Rakka first and never feed the dogs together because I knew that Rakka would attack Tojo if he had something she didn't, but eventually, I felt like I was becoming a slave to Rakka's bossiness. I just decided that enough was enough and I taught Rakka to leave Tojo alone if he had something I'd given him. I actually used feeding them together and chewing on toys in the same room as a training exercise. I started slow by making them eat their own meals out of their dishes a few metres away from each other and worked up to being closer and incorporating higher value items. Now I can even give them something awesome like a raw marrow bone at the same time and not have a fight break out. It's improved the situation overall, too. They both respect me more. For one thing, Rakka knows that she's not in charge and has learned that she has to control her impulses and also, Tojo knows that I will protect him from Rakka, which makes him trust me more as a leader.
I totally believe in time-outs, too. They're perfect for situations like this. For a more severe spat, I will kennel them, but I often just make the dogs split up and hold a sit-stay for thirty seconds before letting them do anything else. Harsh corrections can aggravate them further in situations like this, whereas time-outs just force them to settle down and get their impulses under control.
Anyway, that's just my $0.02. I want to buy the book "Feeling Outnumbered? How to Manage and Enjoy Your Multi-Dog Household." It seems to be highly recommended.
i'm not even thinking about treats yet! oh my!!
that book has a very inticing title right now. I'm trying to collect my thoughts and knowledge and confidence because I don't plan on Kobe being the first and last foster, or male dog, to come in our home. I think if we get a female, the interaction with Tsuki will be far more interesting to watch. We're making progress though. So far, we've been awake for 13 hours today and there have been NO fights!! yay!! they are tired as hell though, we went for a 4 hour hike this morning and played with dogs at the dog park for an hour or so, maybe they are too tired to fight?
I find that when a fight is about to break out, (pardon the new agey-ness) you will feel the energy shift rather dramatically. Sounds silly, but after a while you will know what I mean. There is almost a quietness that happens an instant before a dog lashes out.
My dogs stiffen then lunge. It is lightening fast, but if you pay close attention alot of times you can nip it in the bud.
And I agree with Brad, I keep pups seperate when I am not there to supervise, and if someone does lash out, time out is the best route.
Moto gets sent to another room. Piglet holds stay almost perfectly so I can put her in a down and she won't leave until I release her. She will whimper but she will stay put.
Listen to your gut though.
I agree with Jessica, there is an obvious change in the energy, and there is mos def a quietness, or silence right before. Its like they are sizing each other up a bit before the strike... "the silence before the storm" type of thing.
Good points Jessica!
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Also keep in mind that all these tips apply to a "normal" dog, an "abnormal" dog - like Maui for example - doesn't necessarily play by these rules. You should consider that one of your males may not be "normal" in their behavior.
Maui will strike with little or no warning.
Jessica - you are SO right! yesterday we had no real fights
but we felt that - tension - almost in the energy when Kobe and Kitsune
were near one another during play, then that silence, then Kitsune did
his 'battle cry' and we immediately seperated them.
what makes Maui abnormal? poor breeding? I think my Kitsune has
issues that catagorize him as abnormal, Kobe and Tsuki seem to play by
similar rules and therefore have very little to argue about. They have
a good tolerance level with each other and other dogs, yesterday at the
dog park, Kobe was a shining star with other dogs and people and even
annoying children trying to pet him through the fence. I hate those
children. But Kobe seems better adjusted, just getting out of a kill
shelter after a month!!! He did get into a little arguement with a
cairn terrier, but she's very alpha and started it b/c he was too near
her ball. He even passed the 'cat test' at my inlaws yesterday. He had a big day!
But Kitsune will stay far from people, sometimes interact with
dogs, never aggressively and never gets into a fight at the dog
park. But if we are there for an hour, he spends 55 mins of it in
the back, sniffing around, watching people.
Maybe I should start a new thread about gaining trust in a dog that clearly has an unbalanced, low confidence demeanor.
By the way - those first two days were very tough, almost difficult,
but not impossible. All of the words and ideas and suggestions that you
all contributed were invaluable! I feel that even if they never can
tolerate one another, we can at least create a positive energy for a
peaceful coexistance while Kobe is with us thanks to the mass of
information on this forum/thread!
We are better prepared for the next foster!
Thank you all so much! You have very fortunate dogs to be blessed with knowledgeable and caring owners like yourselves!
Here is that link, check it out, it is quite interesting.
http://www.doglistener.co.uk/language/language_canine.shtml
that article is incredibly interesting! wow. i'm trying this
with Kitsune, I think he is abnormally timid and therefore resorts to
aggressive signals when stressed. that article was SO interesting!!
thanks again, Kelly!!
"I guess with a Shiba you might want to look for more stiffness in the tail because it is curled, because you are right, it is hard to tell with this breed!"
With ours I kinda use the tail as a barometer of the dog’s mood. If he is happy it is curled up tight, but come bath time it is nearly straight. If he is playing rough with another dog and it starts to unwind, I tend to break it up and give him a time out. As long as it is curled up tight as a bun (and the other dog seems comfortable) I’ll leave them be.
As far as gauging aggression by noise, I’m not sure if that is possible (at least with our dogs). Mochi tends to be quite but can become vocal if the other dog is vocal. I’ve seen many barks and growls exchanged during friendly play (usually because one of his playmates gets frustrated and becomes a bit yappy). A low throaty growl to an approaching animal is the obvious exception, and it’s usually accompanied by the other visual cues of aggression and/or fear.
Of course, every animal is different and a lot of it depends on the relationships between the animals. With most of the “regular suspects” at the dog park I don’t have too hard a time gauging when play time is getting a bit too rough and it’s usually easy enough to defuse. When two unacquainted dogs have alpha issues it is another story and things can head south really fast. You’re always at an obvious disadvantage until you get to know a dog well; but the more time you spend with them the better you’ll get at understanding their temperament, their personality, and how it is expressed (both to dogs and to humans).
wow. holy spoke too soon batman.
literally 10 mins after i wrote that, i was eating an oreo at my kitchen table, Kitsune came sniffing, then the other two and all hell broke loose. I am now sitting with a large bite on my arm, swelling and a deep bleeding puncture wound. Kobe is nursing a deep bleeding bite on his arm. Our wounds are both caused by Kitsune, the bastard f/ing dog. (sorry. i'm pissed).
John is nursing a small puncture wound on his thumb caused by Kobe when he wsa pulled from Kitsune's death grip.
Tsuki is getting cleaned because my blood was pooring on her. Kobe faught with her too, it was a 3 way fight.
I got injured. What the hell am I supposed to do now?.
This is bad, honestly I would reconsider the situation. It sounds like Kobe or Kitsune may not be normal.
Did they bite you or were you bit while breaking it up?
Didn't you foster a dog before? Did you not have these problems then?
You will need to drasticly reduce your dogs freedome, imo.
i was bit by kitsune attempting to break it up.
we had a male foster basset w/ kitsune and had no incident.
i think kitsune is not normal. $^(*!#!&^$*&
they are confined to crates allllll night.