Number of black 'hairs' on white dog increasing as he ages (UPDATE 2/28/2015)
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1889
    I mentioned a while ago in Meitou's thread that I had found a black fur on one of Meitou's sides. He did not originally have this black fur as a puppy and super young dog and once I noticed this black fur it was the only one for a long time, but a month or so ago I found a different one in the middle of his back. And a week or two (or three?) ago I found two more on his shoulder right blade. The black fur is increasing increasing! Has anyone ever heard of this happening on other white dogs of other breeds? Or is Meitou just weird? (Well, that's a given, I suppose...)

    I'm just curious about the genetics behind this because it find it amusing that over time he is getting more of them. Granted, it isn't very much more, but it is more. The most obvious one is the one on his back as it stands out the most. Also, these seem to be black only on the top half. Closer to the skin they are still white.

    I am strange enough I tried to get pictures of them. :) Excuse the fingers, but I was trying to point the black strands out.

    Shoulder blade fur #1

    IMG_2578

    Shoulder blade fur #2

    IMG_2580

    On the back:

    IMG_2581

    Shoulder blade

    IMG_2583

    On the back. I'm holding on to most of the black to try and show that it turns white.

    IMG_2585

    On his side.

    IMG_2586
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
    Post edited by WhoBitMe at 2015-03-01 02:16:31
  • Curious - can you pluck one and put really bright light behind it, magnify it in any way? I'm wondering if its truly black (eumelanin) or dark red (pheomelanin). A dog that is white from e/e shouldn't be able to produce eumelanin in the coat at all.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    Ooh, very interesting. I'd like to know if it's true black or dark red as well.
    image
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1889
    @PoetikDragon I'll see if I can pluck one in the next couple of days. If it is a dark red will shining a light on it make it look more red versus still looking black if it is black?

    @Losech Yeah, it is very interesting. I'm curious, too. Since they look black to me it never occurred to me that they might be dark red, so now I want to know.
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 503
    Yay science!! Waiting for result! :D
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1977
    Might be a single cell mutation that lost e/e?
  • Kira_InuKira_Inu
    Posts: 315
    Kira, although not a Hokkaido - has one single black hair on her side. She does have a lot of red since she is a cream Shiba, but that is the only black hair that I've found.
    I wondered about it too.
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
    imageimage
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  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1732
    I'd go with @ayk - probably an "error" somewhere. My friend (who has an ee/yellow Labrador) finds black hairs on her dog all the time, so we've talked about this a lot. That's always been my guess.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1977
    What's cool is that Meitou might be a black/tan under that white color.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3963
    Since Pinto does occur in Shibas, is it possible for a cream shiba to actually be an extreme pinto/piebald? One of my huskies is a piebald and it's believed that his mom is a piebald even though she is pure white, and there have been other white huskies had tests show that they were piebald instead of e/e white.
    image
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1732
    A pinto dog shouldn't be cream, though, if I understand correctly. Pinto/spotting actually strips the coat of the ability to have color vs. ee red/cream, which prevents black hair growth.

    But it's possible for a white dog to be pinto/extreme piebald. I think this is the case with Pyrenees and Dogo Argentino?
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    e/e dogs can be pinto. The white spotting gene has a huge variance in coverage. Flint is pinto but has color since his isn't extreme white spotting. If he were e/e he'd still be pinto, it just wouldn't be noticeable since e/e Laika also tend to be washed out cream/white like Nihon Ken rather than "yellow" or "red" like retriever breeds.
    http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogspots.html
    image
    Post edited by Losech at 2014-12-16 19:32:19
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1732
    I meant that the pinto markings shouldn't be cream, @Losech. Pinto is a pattern that goes over any coat color, though. :)

    The reason why I mentioned it is because Metou has obvious ruddy/cream/"yellow" color along his back and in the pictures - if he were an extreme piebald/pinto, you would expect him to have a more broken coat color (white vs. the ruddy ee cream).

    Kurogane, Shirogane, and Fionna all have/had spotting I observed on top of their ee cream/white - they just had minimal spotting, not extreme piebald/pinto.

    Fionna's white tail tip is very obvious now that her adult coat has grown in fairly dark. Shiro had a small blaze that split his "yellow" face as a young pup, but that seems to have faded, and Kurogane had a bit of a stripe on his stomach from the white spotting vs. ee red/cream/white (whatever one wants to call it).
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
    Post edited by Crispy at 2014-12-16 19:47:16
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1977
    Here's an example of a cream pup that is also pinto.

    image
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1732
    Here's a Sibe with what looks like cream + liver + pinto/extreme white markings, too.

    image
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
    Post edited by Crispy at 2014-12-16 20:04:44
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1889
    I plucked one of Meitou's hairs. As far as shining a bright light on it, would a bright flashlight work? Because that might be the best I've got. I've tried it already and I'm not even sure what I'm looking at or for. Maybe I need a magnifying glass?

    I did take a few (really crappy) photos so maybe I'll try and upload those.

    I always just assumed Meitou was red under his white. I know on his pedigree his paternal grandfather is red, and that dog's parents are both listed as red. All the other dogs that show up on his pedigree, including both parents, are white. Not sure if that means anything.

    Edit:

    This discussion got my wondering about coat color tests like what is offered by Animal Genetics: http://www.animalgenetics.us/Canine/Canine-color/Color_Index.asp

    Because now I'm a little curious about it all, even if he does end up just being red. Would it be worth it?
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
    Post edited by WhoBitMe at 2014-12-17 00:54:45
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1977
    If you plan on breeding him to Genko (black/tan female), then it'll answer your question pretty fast. The litter would have black/tans or whites if he is a black/tan under his white.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3963
    I wasn't really talking about a pup with e/e and pinto, I was more referring to a dog that is just Pinto but with such extreme patterning that they look white.

    The husky image Crispy posted above has a normal level of piebald patterning, with at least 25% or more in coloring. Titan, on the other hand, has less than 10% coloring with 2 siblings having only a spot on one eye and the other two having about 15% color.

    Titan:
    image

    Titan's mom (with puppy Titan):
    image


    The reason I bring this up is because as Titan grew, he gained small black spots and hairs through out his body. Apparently that can happen with some, but not all, piebalds. This kind of came to mind with the discussion of black hairs on a white coat.
    image
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1977
    Sounds like Titan inherited ticking which shows up on the white spots of piebald.

  • aykayk
    Posts: 1977
    @WhoBitMe - If you end up testing for more than one loci, then you might want to check out UC Davis' prices.

    https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/dog.php
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12209
    So then, does that mean Che, my Dogo, is extreme piebald with ticking on the white part of the piebald pattern?

    Che-4
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2014-12-17 13:51:13
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1977
    Yep, Che is that.
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1732
    I thought of Che, too. :D
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12209
    Neat! I think he gets a new spot every day. :)
  • My white AA is piebald while my white JAs are recessive red. Mosura, who also has two brindle genes, doesn't have a single black hair on her that I have ever found. Yet Batora, who I don't think carries brindle (haven't tested for sure), had one black hair on the back of his neck once. I plucked it and it never came back - so odd.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3963
    @ayk, this ticking found on Titan and Che, would this be similar genes that causes Dalmatians to have their spots?
    image
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1977
    I think so.
  • I guess Zora is also piebald, falling somewhere between Titan and the normal piebald that is 25% ? She has the black hood, and a small black patch on her back but is otherwise white. Enough black to not be an extreme piebald, perhaps, but still she is not in the normal pinto category either (she's not balanced enough in color pattern to be a decent show dog). She has ticking on her legs and a bit in other places, too, and as with some of the other dogs, she has gotten more ticking as she got older. Some of the ticking on her back is relatively new, and even the leg ticking wasn't there when she was a puppy.



    image

    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2014-12-17 23:42:26
  • Its my understanding that basically all white patterns - white trim, irish spotting, mantle, pinto, piebald, extreme white - are all caused by the piebald gene. A few years ago they thought there were multiple genes on the S locus that caused varying degrees of white, but now its just S (no white) and sp (piebald). There is incomplete dominance, meaning even a dog with a dominant S gene can still have some white caused by carrying a recessive sp gene. A dog with two sp genes will have significantly more white.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2014-12-18 02:18:22
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3963
    @shibamistress I think most of Zora's black face is caused by the same genes that give other AAs their black mask, and that if she didn't have that mask she probably would have a face pattern similar to Titan. I would consider her a high white like Titan but not extreme like Che.

    Though it's interesting, there are some piebald huskies where they have normal piebald patterning, or are mostly white, but the color doesn't recede back on their faces.
    image

    image
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1544
    Baron's got a few black hairs that pop up every now and again as well.
  • Its very normal for piebald to have a colored head. http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/white.htm
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com




  • @shibamistress I think most of Zora's black face is caused by the same genes that give other AAs their black mask, and that if she didn't have that mask she probably would have a face pattern similar to Titan. I would consider her a high white like Titan but not extreme like Che.

    Though it's interesting, there are some piebald huskies where they have normal piebald patterning, or are mostly white, but the color doesn't recede back on their faces.
    image



    That makes sense! She and Titan are similar in amount of white and amount of black, though she has a bit more than him.

    Its very normal for piebald to have a colored head. http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/white.htm


    Interesting! I noted, particularly, these lines about head color, from that site: "On a piebald dog, only the head, back and tail base may still be coloured. The back colouring is the next to go, followed by the tail base, then the face markings."

    Zora's head is black, but also the spot on her back is from the base of her tail.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1889
    I'm kind of thinking Meitou's black fur could possibly be dark red like was mentioned before, but I really can't tell for sure. I finally got around to uploading the pictures and one video, but they are such poor quality I don't think they help much. I also tried the bright light experiment on a black hair I plucked from Amy. Hers looked pretty similar to Meitou's, but maybe that is because her father was a red BC and she carries red.

    I'm pretty sure once January rolls around I'm still going to do a color DNA test because I think it sounds fun.

    IMG_2705

    IMG_2707

    IMG_2708

    IMG_2710

    IMG_2715

    IMG_2716



    As far as a white Hokkaido being black and tan, just from looking at pedigrees it seems like Katana has a better likelihood of being/carrying black and tan than Meitou since Katana has a black and tan dog in his pedigree (paternal grandfather I believe).

    Katana's pedigree: http://www.hokkaido-pedigree.com/details.php?id=63497

    For comparison, here is Meitou's: http://www.hokkaido-pedigree.com/details.php?id=63553

    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1889
    I feel pretty sure that Meitou's mysterious dark hairs (which have increased in number yet again) or dark red and not black. I found a clearly red hair on him recently, near one that looked black. Plus...see below.

    On February 25th I got back Meitou's test results for color (and CEA) test. Per the results from Animal Genetics he is homozygous AY/AY, so he's red (right?). Which actually makes me really happy. ;) Finally something about my life with Meitou that went as expected, lol. And apparently he carries a gene for brown? Which I guess makes sense but I hadn't thought about it before. On the B locus he is B/b and the description says " B/b: Dog carries a copy of the allele responsible for brown color, and can potentially pass on that allele to future offspring."

    So the basic rundown of his results is this

    AY locus: AY/AY (Dog has two copies of the gene responsible for fawn/sable coat color.)
    at locus: n/n (Dog does not carry the tan points/tricolor gene.)
    a locus: n/n (Dog does not carry the gene responsible for recessive black coat color.)
    B locus: B/b (Dog carries a copy of the allele responsible for brown color, and can potentially pass on that allele to future offspring.)
    D locus: D/D (Dog is negative for the dilution gene.)
    E locus: e/e (The dog is yellow-based, and will always pass on a copy of the yellow allele to any offspring.)
    EM locus: n/n (Dog does not carry allele for melanistic mask.)
    K locus: n/n (Dog does not have the dominant black gene, and the color pattern is determined by the Agouti gene.)
    S locus: N/N (Negative: Dog is negative for the spotting or parti-color gene.)
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1977
    The b is weird for a Hokkaido. They don't come in brown AFAIK. Think chocolate Labradors.
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    Okay, the brown thing is pretty cool. Kinda a bummer that he doesn't carry black and tan though.
    image
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1889
    @ayk It is weird for Hokkaido? Hmn. It seemed weird to me at first, then the more I thought it must be normal since I'm not all that knowledgeable about genetics. It kind of makes me wonder if other Hokkas carry it.

    @Losech I don't know, but I'm not really all that disappointed by the results. But I think I'm a little less attached to b/t than others so it wasn't something I was too concerned about. I'm just excited to know things I didn't know before.

    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    I haven't seen very many examples of b/b Nihon Ken. I've seen a few pictures of dogs that looked b/b (usually older photographs) but almost no recent ones. I can't think of any off the top of my head...

    I just like lots of colors is all. I'm a fan of genetic diversity, I don't like it when dogs look like they came out of a cookie cutter stamp. but it really doesn't matter that much when you take the whole dog into account. A healthy temperamentally sound dog is more important to me than color.
    image
    Post edited by Losech at 2015-03-01 21:05:38
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1889
    @Losech I totally understand. So for diversity Meitou has the red covered? lol And apparently the random brown. If you come across those pictures of dogs that look brown I'd love to see them.
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    Neat! How much do those tests run @WhoBitMe?
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1732
    I have seen one brown/liver-looking Kai Ken somewhere on the forum talking about akatora. It was unclear if the dog was truly brown, sunburnt, or if the lighting was bad.

    I did MDDNA for nami. It doesn't cover as many alleles, but it has more uses than color testing. That was 180 for the full panel. I have heard of a lab that does all the color alleles for around the same price.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1889
    @cezieg I went through Animal Genetics because they had added the CEA test and I liked being able to do the color tests and the CEA test at the same time (for some reason my vet told me they couldn't test for CEA and that I would have to go to a specialist?). Anyway, the CEA test was $75. For the whole color panel it was $130. If you want to only do a certain locus then there is a breakdown for that, too. Plus they have a ton of other genetic disease tests, etc.

    Sample collection kits are free but need to be ordered from Animal Genetics.

    The list of all the available tests and their prices can be found here.
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1977
    I kinda think there might have been contamination rather than Meitou really carrying b.

    This is what b/b looks like in combination with "red", "black/tan", and "white". (Examples not a NK.)

    image
    image
    image
    Post edited by ayk at 2015-03-02 21:01:44
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1977
    But now I remember that the Ryukyu dog (Okinawa dog) does carry "b".

    http://okinawa-dog.seesaa.net/article/13539484.html
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1889
    @ayk Oooh, that's interesting about the Ryukyu inu. I didn't realize that color of Ryukyu would be carrying "b." Thank you for pointing that out!
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1732
    The Yakushima dogs have b/b as well as being a vivid red, similar to the Ryukyu dog linked. Most of them were black-based, but I do remember seeing some "red nosed" ones. I'll see if I can find them again.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1889
    @Crispy From the link in this thread? http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/9382/yakushima-ken#Item_9
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1732
    Yes! The two dogs in the back are b/b, it looks like. There are others in Google if you search the breed/type in Japanesd, too
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1889
    I was reminded of this thread after looking through Meitou's Optimal Selection (I guess it used to be MyDogDNA?) and noticed that in the coat color section the Optimal Selection test also reports Meitou as carrying b, if I am understanding it correctly.
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.

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