Uncommon nihon ken colors?

Ketsuryu

Anyone have any pictures of them? These are what I'm looking for, of course I'll post pictures of what I find.
Kai- cream, white, any others?
Kishu-brindle, piebald, Black and Tan, red.
Shikoku- black, brindle,white, silver, black sesame, cream
Shiba- black and white

BradA1878

Did you do a search? There's been several of all of the above posted in the past...

Crispy

You'll find nearly all of those if you search for them, Brad's right.

- Cream/White Kai Ken have been posted in the past in the Kai Ken board.
- The Yushoku Kishu thread has all of the Kishu colors you've listed.
- All of the Shikoku colors (sans brindle, which I would doubt you'd find at all?) have been posted in the past either in the threads with historic pictures or the one we spoke about the hunting line Shikoku in.
- The black and white Shiba Inu, I would imagine, is actually a black and tan with extensive white markings (pinto). Those are pretty easy to find.

Ketsuryu

Yeah I saw some but not all. Thank you.

Calia

Like everyone else has said, a search on the forum will find your answers.

Kai: http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/6215/cream-kai-male/

There was also some discussion about solid red/orange kai, but I can't remember if it was on the forum or just on the nihonken blog http://nihonken.blogspot.com/2012/03/kai-puppies.html

Kishu: http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5428/yushoku-kishu-another-pic-added-411/p1

Shikoku: http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/6203/the-shikoku
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/3386/black-tan-shikoku
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5928/what-color-is-this-shikoku-considered/p1
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/9196/kina-the-shikoku-spam/p1
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5118/you-wont-believe-this/p1

Black sesame is not that uncommon, it's actually very popular and highly sought after. To see more B/T shikoku pics, just look up any thread I posted of my Miyu (B/T Shikoku). They don't come in brindle, I'm betting any info that states that they (or shibas) do are because of either misidentified Kai Ken or missed categorization of the sesame color. A color I would like to see more of is red, as in shiba red, but since the focus is on sesame a good clean red isn't that common.

Crispy

Haha, good job on the research work, @Calia.

White and cream are really the same color, just with slightly varying intensity in pheomelanin. There's no distinction that I know of in the NIPPO standard. In Kishu Ken, the off-white/cream color is sometimes referred to as "yogore-shiro", but they are white dogs, for all purposes.

"Black" is the term NIPPO uses to describe the black and tan color, so the vast majority of "black" dogs have tan points. There was a case of a Hokkaido posted in the Hokkaido color thread where the dog was truly black (seemed to be recessive).

Silver isn't a color, either, but I suppose the closest would be a sesame whose pheomelanin is cream/white instead of the desired tan/red. This is usually called "shirogoma", but that's not an official color.

Ketsuryu

I was putting it into simple terms. I know it's not really called silver. But as we are on the subject, does anybody have a pic of one besides the dog we've all seen (which was removed by the way) I think the hunters site is down.
And in case anyone misunderstood, the purpose of this topic was simply to post pictures of any you found.

Crispy

One of the "shirogoma" Shikoku from the hunter's kennel.


I don't think anyone misunderstood, but wanted to lead you to the threads where you could find the dogs to keep from making superfluous threads.

Ketsuryu

I saw that one . I was asking if anyone had seen more.

violet_in_seville

Pardon me for being rude, but I'm kind of confused as to what the purpose of this thread is. Do you mean to gather all of the photos in one thread? As has been mentioned above, there exist several threads about the more unusual colors found in various nihon ken breeds. It was my understanding that as a rule we try to add to older threads when we are exploring the same topics so that the forum may be kept neater and easier to search.

Also, I'm sure that you did not intend for it to come across this way, but your response to @crispy comes across a bit as dismissive and rude. She's put a lot of work into finding and posting the types of photos you seem to be seeking. Perhaps a better way to phrase it might have been, "[T]hanks so much for the great example. I have seen this photo in my searches (or I have seen this photo in the thread that you started earlier). I was wondering if you or anyone else have seen any additional examples."

None of us have any idea of what you have or have not seen yet. Because the purpose of starting this new thread isn't totally clear in the context of the forum, I'm sure it would not be unusual to think that you have not thoroughly perused the earlier threads about the less frequently found colors.

Ketsuryu

I am not trying to be rude, simply calm. No offense but I'm not planning to make a long drawn response if that's what you mean. I am not trying to be "dismissive" at all, i just stated earlier that I had seen it and asked for another photo of anyone had one. To crispy, I sincerely apologize if I came off that way. If I'm rude to you guys I can simply leave, if it hurts your feelings. I don't enjoy making people upset.

To be perfectly clear , no I did not find all of the aforementioned colors in the forum as some have been removed, or simply not posted. I would like to thank those who posted links as they helped quite a bit. However not every rare color is on the forum which is why I asked.

Crispy

Thank you, @violet_in_seville - I'm not offended! It takes quite a bit to ruffle me. Calia did the most work, lol.

I do think you come across as curt, @ketsuryu, but that is one of the downfalls of text.

Every color you posted in your OP is on the forum - if it exists. The brindle Shikoku is probably the only one you will not find. In regard to the shirogoma Shikoku, this color is very infrequent because the dogs are bred to have strong red pigment in the coat. It occurs in Kishu most often and I would not be surprised to see a "shirogoma" Hokkaido.

We try to update threads when possible instead of making new ones so it is easier for newcomers to find and sift through the information on the site.

Is there a particular reason you are looking for pictures of these colors? It might be useful to do a google search in Japanese - could yield some results. You can look up the kanji for the color names on websites like Jisho.org and copy the characters if you cannot type in Japanese on your keyboard.

Ketsuryu

@crispy
I'm looking for these colors for a book I was planning to write. Unfortunately, I don't specialize in the six popular nothin ken breeds as much as I do the extinct Japanese dogs. Oh and Thanks for the info, if you ever see a shirogoma Hokkaido or kishu, please let me know. It helps a lot.
And as for the curt comment, yeah I have a tendency to be a little straight forward. I'm glad I didn't upset you.

Edit: the translator didn't work on my phone. Sorry to bother you again but how would you say " white sesame Hokkaido dog" in Japanese?

Calia

If you're planning to write a book and want to use these images in it, you need to do more than search for images. Even if we had a plethora of images of the colors you are looking for, without permission of the original photographers and dog owners you would be breaking copyright laws and risk a major lawsuit. Even if images are shared publicly on this forum or anywhere on the web, they are not free to use especially in something that could be profitable for the author. Instead of asking for pictures people happen to have that they didn't take themselves, you should instead be looking for owners of such dogs and request written permission to use images of their dogs in your book.

WrylyBrindle

^ Right on. Be a professional.

Ketsuryu

@calia I'm not actually using the images. It's simply there are a pack of nihon ken owned by someone and I don't want them all to look uniform. That's why I need to know colors. while most dog breeds are pretty uniform in color and markings, these dogs are specially supposed to look different. I'd never use someone else's photos in a book, especially not without their permission. Though I thank you for your concern.

Trzcina

@calia I'm not actually using the images. It's simply there are a pack of nihon ken owned by someone and I don't want them all to look uniform. That's why I need to know colors. while most dog breeds are pretty uniform in color and markings, these dogs are specially supposed to look different. I'd never use someone else's photos in a book, especially not without their permission. Though I thank you for your concern.

I'm assuming from this that you're writing fiction?

Bear in mind, "rare" colors of various breeds generally are just that--quite unusual. Some colors are more likely to arise than others. The cream/white color in Kai appears (as far as I'm aware) to function as a recessive, which means that it can arise in litters with two brindle parents. On the contrary, white Kishu (which, as I'm sure you are aware, are the majority) themselves express a recessive, so for a litter to produce yushoku puppies, at least one parent must not be white.

There is significant variation even within the more common colors, and the dogs aren't going to look uniform. Compare, say, @WrylyBrindle's (using them just because Chrystal's was the last post I read) two Kai. Juno and Matsu are both brindle, albeit different categories of brindle--and there's no mistaking them for one another, even if they are the same breed and both brindle.

Personally, I would take a fictional portrayal of a group of dogs that nearly all express wildly rare colors for their respective breeds with a very large grain of salt, because to me it tends to suggest the author is emphasizing "cool factor" over believability. That said, this isn't a writing forum, and I'm relieved to find that you don't intend to use the photos for your book.

Ketsuryu

They aren't supposed to be cool, they're supposed to be litter rejects.