Best survival dog?
  • Does anybody have a preferance? It doesn't have to be a nihon ken. Just name a breed and a reason. I'm interested to hear from you guys.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    What type of survival? Wilderness? End of days? Urban post apocalypse? Zombie apocalypse?
  • Wilderness. And for rules how about these conditions

    Your stuck on a savannah/ temperate forest island. There are cave and mountians too and the island is about as big a Texas. The prey species are small swamp rabbits, small 60-90 pound deer, Japanese/Australian wild boar crosses, wild goats, and large feral cats. The carnivores include bobcats, golden jackals, a large eagle, red foxes, and honey badgers. You have a large machete, a canteen, and a large backpack full of camping supplies. You have two dogs with boar hunting gear on and spiked collars. They also have a doggy backpack. What breed would you choose and your reasons?
  • cdenneycdenney
    Posts: 961
    Luytiyu (Brad's CO) bit only if he recognized me as something to be protected.
    image
    image
  • Personally if I had to chose I'd go with a blue heeler/kelpie/irish staffy bull mix. This would create a powerful medium sized dog capable of stoping a boar and catching fast prey. The weight range is around 40-60 pounds-ideal for a survival dog- so they won't have to eat to much. Not to mention they are almost unmatched in stamina and working ability. Hopefully the staffy blood will produce large jaw muscles and teeth, and a wide head/muzzle. All 3 breeds are known to be specifically muscular and explosive so I like the combo. Not to mention their jumping ability. The highest I've ever heard a heeler jump is probably 64 cm. whilst a kelpie holds the record at almost 9 feet in a jump. Pit bulls are also good jumpers. Heelers and kelpies also have large ears that would help with hearing animals. And then there's their intelligence at no.10 . Of course the most important thing is hunting. The best things about the selected breeds are their prey drive and grit. Pit bulls and staffys can go for hours as can heelers. Bull breeds twist their head to make a bite more painful and shake at the same time. Adding in the staffys teeth and the blues heelers tendency to aim for the hind legs and nose will help immobilize boar. Actually I've met a good number of blues that had webbed paws. Their rough coat also protects from hot and cold. Cattle dogs have swum miles, survived on their own with no help, survived cougar attacks, fought off alligators,etc. So my ideal dog would have:

    The ability to work in hot or cold for hours
    The muscle of a working line pit bull
    The teeth of a staffy
    The ears of a kelpie
    The fur of a heeler
    Webbed paws
    The tail of a heeler
    The jump of a kelpie
    The attack of a pit bull
    Be liver colored
    Have golden eyes
    Be personal protection trained
    Have only the best blood
    Be hog trained
    Be PP trained
    Be very obedient
    Be very loyal.

    Luytiyu (Brad's CO) bit only if he recognized me as something to be protected.


    Then let's say you've raised this dog since birth and it only trusts you.
    Post edited by Ketsuryu at 2014-11-21 22:00:56
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    Hunting saluki for savannah. They still have the instincts and ability to catch the rabbits, deer, goats and cats (though I wouldn't eat a carnivore). They won't be apt to catch a boar and get injured in the process. Somewhat guardy/protective. Large enough to handle the carnivores.

    More mountainous/lush and I'd choose a different breed.
  • Just some examples of what I'm looking for
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YpC5I7L-38U
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NmzNfrjOihM
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mtsEDZ28Y4E
    http://www.sptimes.com/News/072701/State/Blue_fights_off_gator.shtml
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1239326/Dogs-survival-tale-set-Hollywood-hit.html
    http://news.discovery.com/adventure/activities/7-heroic-dogs-that-saved-their-owners-lives-and-most-of-their-toes.htm

    cattle dog vs cougar
    The 1-year-old Blue Heeler was bloody and barely able to stand.

    Monday morning, Jirsa was walking with Lady along a trail near her home in a remote area on Stanley Mountain.

    Lady was 150 feet down an embankment from the trail when the mountain lion attacked.

    "When I realized it was a mountain lion, I really started hollering," Jirsa said. "I was pretty much at its mercy if I did decide to go down there."

    The large cat picked up the 40-pound dog and carried it out of sight.

    Jirsa ran for help and when she returned, there was no sign of the mountain lion or her dog.

    "Over and over and over I saw that scene in my head and felt the helplessness of that," Jirsa said.

    She spent the day in her house, wracked with grief.

    Until the moment, part way through the afternoon, when Lady staggered into the house.

    The dog was bleeding and covered with dirt.

    Dr. Jody Engel of Mountain Park Veterinary Hospital says Lady was nearly comatose when Jirsa carried the dog into the clinic.

    Engel says it's rare for a dog as small as Lady to survive such a severe attack.

    "She's very lucky to be alive," Engel said. "She actually has a fractured skull. It was amazing because you could see her breathing through her forehead."

    Engel says she has seen a recent rash of brazen mountain lion attacks on pets. In one case, she said, a cat forced its way into a garage to kill a dog.

    Tuesday evening, Lady emerged from a three-hour surgery and is expected to go home within a day or two.

    "She is tough as nails," said Jirsa.

    Engel says Lady's survival story is a good reminder to pet owners to keep their animals on leashes when in mountain lion country.

    So in body it might look like this but red nose pit bull color

    imageimage
    image


    Post edited by Ketsuryu at 2014-11-21 22:53:55
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    I'd choose an American Cur, a Catahoula Leopard Dog, or a Dogo Argentinio. They're all hardy, semi protective, and can catch game. I'd trap the rabbits.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3012
    I'd go with catahoula or catahoula mix. I've owned a mix of one and she was one tough dog.

    Met some pure ones too and they're neat breed.. I don't think I'd own one personally unless I had game in my area to hunt with it.

    I liked the personalities of the ones I met..
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1822
    I'd probably go for a tazi or cur if I meant to hunt... but honestly, maybe going with some primitive CAS-type LGD would be more efficient. Trap and tame the goats for the LGD to guard, set up a base of operations instead of leading a hunter-gatherer life if I'm meant to be in that position for a while. The LGD can and will hold the occasional boar, but the goats, gathered plants, and the small game that I could trap would be the way to go.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    If I had a gun, then no question - I'd choose a Laika or a Kishu. Probably the Laika over the Kishu because some Laiki are fast enough to catch rabbits.

    But since I just have a machete, I need a dog that can hold large game until I can dispatch it with the machete. This is why I chose those breeds - and I'd probably like a mix of them, like one Catahoula Leopard Dog and one Dogo Argentino.
  • omgtainomgtain
    Posts: 240
    I'd have Naresy and Tavi. :P I've already planned out that in a zombie apocalypse we would win. Tavi would catch our food. Shes fast, powerful, and is a very skilled hunter. Nare would eat everyone's face and bully others into handing over their supplies and food.
    I'd imagine it would be similar, Tavi would catch us rabbits and small prey, Nare would ward off larger game/predators.
    image

    Tain, Nare the GSD/Husky, and Tavi the Kaigirl!
    Post edited by omgtain at 2014-11-22 13:03:39
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1822
    If I had to pick just two of my dogs, Nami (Kishu) and Russell (cur X) would win. But that makes me a bit depressed to think about.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    I definitely wouldn't choose anything too big as you're not just feeding yourself, would probably have to catch an extra boar just to feed a dog like Luytiy. Stocky dogs would also probably need to eat a decent amount of food to maintain mass and energy. Also, the more energy the dog burns the more they need to eat, so I wouldn't go with anything too hyper. My ideal survival dog in this situation would be 40-60lb, have a medium double coat, medium build, be good at baying and treeing, have predator awareness, an "off" switch during down time, and can structurally handle pulling somewhat heavy loads. I probably would go with a siberian husky with strong prey drive and a hunting spitz breed like a Laika or Kishu.

    Though for the most part, I would find other ways to hunt and survive that doesn't rely on dogs. If this survival thing is long term, I'll be living it far beyond the dog's lifespan and you can only go so far with breeding related descendents. The machete can be used to make other types of weapons such a spears, bow and arrows (with enough practice/knowledge), and wooden knives. The weapons may be a bit rough but good enough to get started with, once I have my first kill then bone weapons can be made. If there's any hollow shafted plants like bamboo then I can have me some blow darts, and I would also build a stone sling out of plants or sinew. Find a sapling and turn that into a fishing pole, make a hook out of cat claws or bones, and line out of plant fiber.

    I'd probably use the dogs on boar and deer, but wouldn't really rely on that game for a main food source, bigger game means more energy used. Trapping small game and fishing would be a more efficient way to procure meat on a regular basis, and the big game reserved for stocking up for winter months. With the boar and deer, I'd prefer the dog to bay or chase them and possibly have the dog lead the prey to me so I can ambush it with a spear.

    I'd also go the captive goat route and build some really good fencing with a lot of spikes and bramble to help keep predators out. Try to catch some live rabbits and breed them for food too. Could even take advantage of the goat/rabbit areas and build a few pit traps outside it, anything that falls in in search of a meal becomes future food/clothing. I'd probably also be a nest raider, grab a fledgling eagle and young bobcats and put them to use. Figure out what plants are edible, for both me and the goats, and try to grow some near the base camp.
    image
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    You guys are really putting alot of thought into this. :-)

    I still like my saluki because if they hunt like they do in their homeland, they don't kill the animals they catch. That'll make for catching the goats and rabbits easier for domestication. ;-)
  • NavyDogNavyDog
    Posts: 388
    This is very interesting and fun to think about. My first thought goes to one catch dog such as a dogo or Amstaff then one bay dog, maybe a Kishu? I've never hunted with Kishu but my experience hunting with my Kai tells me that Kai (mine at least) does not bark when prey is found so it becomes a game of "follow the jingling color". I've heard Kishu are great at alerting their handler. Then again when I think of survival being pretty reliant on which dogs I choose, I might stray away from a catch dog. Too much risk of it being injured or killed so I think I would either go with 2 bay dogs either Kishu or finish spitz or possible one bay dog and one packing/guarding dog. Your island is probably too temprate and humid for a thick coated dog like an OC but possibly a Turkish shepherd or beauceron
    Post edited by NavyDog at 2014-11-23 07:10:57
  • Frankly I'm surprised everyone is picking 80+ lbs dogs. I'm pretty sure that a medium sized, powerful, and game dog would be best. If you know how much half of these breeds have to eat you'd be astonished. I picked an acd cross because they've proven themselves to be hardy survivors. The only other dogs I'd pick would be a jindo or a dingo mix.
  • Also for the sake of laughs let's add in a 5 coywolfdogs . Also no guns allowed.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    A pair of Gull Terr would probably fit the bill too, and would be under 80lbs
  • Yeah but they don't do well in the snow.
  • ZinjaZinja
    Posts: 1033
    Sounds like a school assignment ^.^
    -Joe
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    I didn't think snow was an issue in a "temperate forest island"
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    Hands down Kishu or maybe a plott hound. Kishu will hunt all of those animals. Plotts for mostly the big game but will pretty much hunt everything. Both breeds are great all game dog.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3432
    Beebe and Grym (Shiba and CO)
    info@hokkaidoken.org
    www.hokkaidoken.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • I get the shiba, but why the co? They aren't the best hunters,require a lot of food, and tend to wander off.
  • I didn't think snow was an issue in a "temperate forest island"


    I I mentioned mountains. And yes it snows in the winter. For an example think of virginia around the year.

  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3432
    My CO kills more pests than my Shibas so I know he can feed himself and he is really thrifty with the food. He likes to work close to me and has decent recall. Beebe and Grym would also be my zombie apocalypse dogs.
    info@hokkaidoken.org
    www.hokkaidoken.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • For me I would say a Dutch ShepherdxAmerican Akita, and that would be for the temperate area where their is snow. Also a savannah is out of the question, I hate the heat even when it comes to living in Texas, give me deathly cold over heat and dryness anyday. But if i did i would want a SalukixBelgian Malinois.

    DSxAA because that would combine a balanced, drivey dog with excellent tracking abilities with a independent but hardy cold weather type dog that can pull sleds. It would most likely have a thick, but all weather coat and be able to make decisions for itself when I'm not in range but still be very loyal to me. Also this is just one of my dream dog crosses, I've met one in real life and I never seen a more beautiful brindle coat and impressive drive, even blind the dog would track and chase down balls and toys like noones business but was also very smart.

    Thats another thing I would want the dog to have a coat that really helps them blend in the environment and trick prey. Brindle dogs for me always seem to be the hardest to spot when they are in the woods, its almost like the brindle acts as camouflage.
  • cdenneycdenney
    Posts: 961
    Luytiyu (Brad's CO) bit only if he recognized me as something to be protected.


    Then let's say you've raised this dog since birth and it only trusts you.


    Sassy much? This entire thing is hypothetical unless you have new info on an oncoming apocalypse, it would be assumed per the context that the CO was cool. No need to be extra
    image
    image
    Post edited by cdenney at 2014-11-30 09:15:13
  • Not really. I thought it was something I should add. You shouldn't assume the way someone's speaking from text.
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 2211
    I choose Dire Wolf.

    Jesse
    Jesse Pelayo

  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    I choose Dire Wolf.


    I choose you, Pikachu!!
    image
  • akinnoakinno
    Posts: 42
    I like the lurcher mix of a pit and greyhound (bull lurcher) http://californiacatchers.com/index.asp?ID=32. and the Hinks bull terriers very similar to Gull terrier or working bull terriers. http://www.dogforum.com/dog-pictures-videos/my-classic-hinks-bull-terrier-16494/. I think these two would provide , good hunting, protection and are sturdy breeds. They also can handle predators.
  • I choose Dire Wolf.

    Jesse


    Lol. Though here is evidence to suggest that dire wolves were "domesticated". But then they aren't dogs. Or at least they aren't wolves.

  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 2211
    wait, I thought the only qualifier was that I had to have raised the dog as a pup? Dire Wolf is in the Canus family. Or does it have to be in the Canus Familiaris family.

    Jesse
    Jesse Pelayo

    Post edited by CrimsonO2 at 2014-12-01 21:02:39
  • Well it's not a dog. It's more of an eastern wolf on steroids. If you wanted a hybrid, id say yeah.
  • I choose a small pack of three Blink Dogs. They are fast, often invisible, can teleport and are lawful good.
    Post edited by WrylyBrindle at 2014-12-02 11:10:29
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    Based on this blog post:

    http://woodtrekker.blogspot.ca/2013/09/living-off-land-delusions-and.html

    Laika or a cur-dog.

    Forget about catching rabbits. Raymond Coppinger theorized that dogs couldn't had evolved as hunting companion because in his experience his rabbiting dogs weren't able to procure enough meat to feed himself.

    Yeah, no crap, genius, rabbit-meat is not enough to sustain anyone. It would require hunting deer or moose to procure enough calorie.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-02 11:21:02
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    "Blink dogs". :P

    What is that reference? Piers Anthony? My memory is patchy.
  • @ayk ...very old Dungeons and Dragons :)
  • Based on this blog post:

    http://woodtrekker.blogspot.ca/2013/09/living-off-land-delusions-and.html

    Laika or a cur-dog.

    Forget about catching rabbits. Raymond Coppinger theorized that dogs couldn't had evolved as hunting companion because in his experience his rabbiting dogs weren't able to procure enough meat to feed himself.

    Yeah, no crap, genius, rabbit-meat is not enough to sustain anyone. It would require hunting deer or moose to procure enough calorie.


    That's not necessarily true..

    image

    And remember that I said there are boar on the island too. Kai ken and jindo have proven themselves to be sufficient boar killers. Much more so than laikas to my knowledge.
    http://app.f.m-cocolog.jp/t/typecast/1438865/1452785/76853259
    And I'm still surprised that no one has said kelpie or heeler much. They've proved themselves to be as good at survival as other breeds such as curs.
  • Here's a good survival dog. A grey x kelpie
    image
    Has prick ears, long legs, scissor bite, rough coat. Wouldn't mind having this guy in a survival situation.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    Based on this blog post:

    http://woodtrekker.blogspot.ca/2013/09/living-off-land-delusions-and.html

    Laika or a cur-dog.

    Forget about catching rabbits. Raymond Coppinger theorized that dogs couldn't had evolved as hunting companion because in his experience his rabbiting dogs weren't able to procure enough meat to feed himself.

    Yeah, no crap, genius, rabbit-meat is not enough to sustain anyone. It would require hunting deer or moose to procure enough calorie.



    Rabbit shouldn't be a main source of food, they are such a lean meat that you can actually get sick due to not ingesting enough fat. They are a high protein meat but the should still only be a secondary source.

    http://www.raising-rabbits.com/rabbit-starvation.html

    Yes, fat is actually good for you and needed, especially in survival circumstance that will cause you to burn a lot of energy.
    image
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    That's not necessarily true..

    image

    And remember that I said there are boar on the island too. Kai ken and jindo have proven themselves to be sufficient boar killers. Much more so than laikas to my knowledge.
    http://app.f.m-cocolog.jp/t/typecast/1438865/1452785/76853259
    And I'm still surprised that no one has said kelpie or heeler much. They've proved themselves to be as good at survival as other breeds such as curs.


    I was referring to Raymond Coppinger's dismal of northern hunting culture of using dogs on reindeer and moose based on his own assessment of rabbiting.

    The earliest wolf-human associations were found around reindeer kill-sites.

    But yes, I am aware boars have a potential to have a lot of meat, but deer are easier to run to exhaustion. With boars, you have to kill the damn thing, and you also risk losing a dog. On top of that, if the dog catches and gets injured or killed, then the dog would need to be replaced.

    As far as breeds go, my knowledge of them is not as intimate as American hounds or northern hunting spitzes. So, I don't really feel comfortable making a comment about a breed I don't have personal experience with, and only read through Internet or books. Especially if I don't speak or read Japanese

    Just like how you are not aware of hunting spitzes being used on boars in Sweden (most popular one is Grawatchel and Jamthund), Ukraine, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Belarus, Russia et al-- language barrier. There are probably more proven spitzes in eastern Europe than all of Japan just based on number in hunters of Eastern Europe versus Asia. So, let us not get into the whole "there are more proven _____" game. Someone is bound to lose just based on statistical probability.

    Under that assumption, there are probably more continental gundogs proven on boars world-wide than any other group of dogs. If I put my personal biases aside and look at registration numbers and numbers of hunters, there are probably more proven Drahthaars and Jadgterriers than any other hunting breed in the world.

    That's probably why no one listed the Australian breeds. Very few people actually know they are used as "bailers", and usually it's only the Ozzies who know that.

    But if I want an all-purpose dog which fit your hypothetical scenario of being good on boars, rabbits, deer and cats, one of the German hunting breeds (eg. Deutsch-Drahthaar or Deutscher Wachtelhund) would actually be better than any hunting spitz or hound.

    But if I want to hunt both small-game (eg. cats) and run deer, then cur-dog or Laika would fit that bill. Only because I know what to expect from those dogs seeing I don't have a whole of experience with other breeds, and I know those methods are the most cost-effective way of procuring the most amount of calorie with the least amount of risk to the dog and myself.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-02 19:44:59
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    And remember that I said there are boar on the island too. Kai ken and jindo have proven themselves to be sufficient boar killers. Much more so than laikas to my knowledge.
    http://app.f.m-cocolog.jp/t/typecast/1438865/1452785/76853259
    And I'm still surprised that no one has said kelpie or heeler much. They've proved themselves to be as good at survival as other breeds such as curs.


    I think you're mistaken, Jindo and Kai, as well as Kishu and Shikoku, bay their game (boar in this case) so the hunter can dispatch it. Some may catch the boar, but it's incredibly rare for a dog to kill a boar.

    Even large catch dogs don't kill boar.

    Also, Laika are very well known for hunting boar. Just as well known for hunting boar as the native Nihon Ken are.

    PS: the darker colored Kai in the pictures at the URL you posted is Sakura, my male Kai's (Akashi), mother.
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2014-12-02 21:11:44
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247

    Though for the most part, I would find other ways to hunt and survive that doesn't rely on dogs. If this survival thing is long term, I'll be living it far beyond the dog's lifespan and you can only go so far with breeding related descendents. The machete can be used to make other types of weapons such a spears, bow and arrows (with enough practice/knowledge), and wooden knives. The weapons may be a bit rough but good enough to get started with, once I have my first kill then bone weapons can be made. If there's any hollow shafted plants like bamboo then I can have me some blow darts, and I would also build a stone sling out of plants or sinew. Find a sapling and turn that into a fishing pole, make a hook out of cat claws or bones, and line out of plant fiber.


    Actually, that's a very interesting thought. A lot of the old methods of harvesting animals were banned by hunting laws because they were too effective-- like using glue to catch birds; or banning hounds from running deer.

    So, really, if one want to be a "survivor" just take a look at what was banned-- and what poachers use.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-02 20:49:23
  • And remember that I said there are boar on the island too. Kai ken and jindo have proven themselves to be sufficient boar killers. Much more so than laikas to my knowledge.
    http://app.f.m-cocolog.jp/t/typecast/1438865/1452785/76853259
    And I'm still surprised that no one has said kelpie or heeler much. They've proved themselves to be as good at survival as other breeds such as curs.


    I think you're mistaken, Jindo and Kai, as well as Kishu and Shikoku, bay their game (boar in this case) so the hunter can dispatch it. Some may catch the boar, but it's incredibly rare for a dog to kill a boar.

    Even large catch dogs don't kill boar.

    Also, Laika are very well known for hunting boar. Just as well known for hunting boar as the native Nihon Ken are.

    PS: the darker colored Kai in the pictures at the URL you posted is Akashi, my male Kai's, mother.


    I never said it was common did I? I just said it happens. I've never seen a laika kill a boar at all. I've got some bookmarks of jindoes killing their own prey, I'll try to find them.
    And that dog is your Kai's mother? Nice. You must have some good dogs.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    I never said it was common did I? I just said it happens. I've never seen a laika kill a boar at all. I've got some bookmarks of jindoes killing their own prey, I'll try to find them.
    And that dog is your Kai's mother? Nice. You must have some good dogs.

    Well human mothers have been known to lift vehicles off children who have been run over, and some humans have survived falls from incredibly high altitudes (like skydiving), and there are stories of humans killing bears and lions with their bare hands...

    But all those things are extraordinary feats. It would be silly to depend on those extraordinary situations for your survival, right? Same applies to choosing a dog breed for survival... Why choose a breed because of some anecdote about one of them killing a boar?

    Put another way: I've owned and raised a LOT of Kai Ken, I wouldn't expect any of them to be able to kill a boar.

    I have a Jindo as well, he's a gritty little man, but he wouldn't be able to kill a boar.

    Maybe like 5 Kai or Jindo could, but we're limited to just 2 dog in this situation.
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2014-12-02 21:20:14
  • I see where you're coming from and I agree. Though it is rare, I think that dogs can take small/young boar around their size. ( http://www.chatong.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=freeboard&wr_id=4063&cid=999 ) but again, very rare occurrence. Boar are no joke (I've been attacked by one), and even wild canids are wary of them.
  • cdenneycdenney
    Posts: 961
    Kais are small dogs rarely above 40lbs. Boars get close to 100lbs. Boars generally stay with their ...dam?, for a little more than half a year. And put on sufficient bulk in that time. In my honest opinion of a non boar hunter, according to the theory that they would be taking on a boar their size successfully Kais would have to also contend with the adolescent's 100lbs mother as well, No?
    image
    image
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    I never said it was common did I? I just said it happens. I've never seen a laika kill a boar at all. I've got some bookmarks of jindoes killing their own prey, I'll try to find them.
    And that dog is your Kai's mother? Nice. You must have some good dogs.


    There are more than enough videos of Laikas ripping boars to bits. Usually they are reported for extreme violence. One time someone posted a video of a pack shredding a boar to bits in Moldova to an international group. The administration ended up removing it, and a few people petitioned YouTube to delete the video.

    Keep in mind, those same people would probably censor the pictures of Jindos killing boars too to maintain a good self-image to the majority of people who don't want to see gore. So, you're lucky those documentations come from a culture which is not threatened by animal welfare activism on a daily basis.

    Just because you don't speak the language, it doesn't mean evidence don't exist. Not everyone speak English.

    Besides, I wouldn't want a dog of any breed to do that to a hog. They get cut up really badly, even with the proper equipment and protective gears.

    Someone once found a video of a Kishu tearing up a boar, and the dog got hurt really badly. I forgot where since the language was in cyrillic, not Latin alphabet.

    There are probably videos of other breeds doing the same, but I haven't seen them because I don't know the language and I don't belong to those groups. I do know people with German dogs pride themselves in dogs killing seals and such though.

    But such macho attitude are rare in the hunting world because it's a good way of getting your sport banned by non-hunters; so most people censor themselves.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-03 01:11:12
  • Kais are small dogs rarely above 40lbs. Boars get close to 100lbs. Boars generally stay with their ...dam?, for a little more than half a year. And put on sufficient bulk in that time. In my honest opinion of a non boar hunter, according to the theory that they would be taking on a boar their size successfully Kais would have to also contend with the adolescent's 100lbs mother as well, No?


    40 pounds is not small. It's medium. That pretty obviously didn't happen up there so no, Not every time at least. Some boar may have been separated from their mothers ,or perhaps abandoned. And small boar exist. Too many possibilities to say for sure.

  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    Keep in mind boars (males) and sows (females) tend to live two totally separate lives. Boars will usually stay with a sounder (pack of hogs) for about a year and a half until they sexually mature to go out on their own. Sows will sexually mature within their first year of life and can reproduce at 6 months.

    As boars matur they become solitary animals and travel long distances looking for sows to breed and to fight other boars. Sows tend to stay within a smaller proximity where there's good food, water, and cover.

    As for dogs physically killing hogs, you won't see a lot of that with a big nasty boar that had some big cutters. I would say it's extremely difficult for most predators to successfully take on and kill a mature boar without sustaining some sort of injury unless the boar is sick or injured.



    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    40 pounds is not small. It's medium. That pretty obviously didn't happen up there so no, Not every time at least. Some boar may have been separated from their mothers ,or perhaps abandoned. And small boar exist. Too many possibilities to say for sure.



    40lbs is the max, many of the kai I've met aren't much bigger than my 20lb (14.5" at the shoulder) shiba. My shikoku is 37lbs and equivalent in size to some kai males, she's just shy of 17" tall and I significantly shorter than my huskies (who are both are around 23" tall, 65lbs and 53lbs respectively). Even if she had excellent drive and in top shape, I still can't picture her to be able to kill or even do any significant damage to a 100lb+ boar. And to be quite honest, to expect that out of a dog in a survival setting is really not the best way to go.

    If a dog is going to be used as a key tool in your own survival, then it really isn't ideal to expect them to go head on and physical with any animal that has the potential to do significant damage. Even a squirrel or rabbit can get a lucky bite in and cause enough damage to make the dog practically useless, so throwing them into a situation (catch, wrestle, or kill large game) where they have a high likelihood of getting fatally wounded is poor use of the dog. The less direct contact with the big game, i.e. baying instead of catching, the less of a chance the dog would need special medical attention (you're not going to find any hospitals in the middle of nowhere). And this is assuming that the dog has good instincts and a good head on its shoulders, you may wind up with a dog that won't be able to quite figure out how to handle certain game even if the general breed description says they can.

    image
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    I can tell you that a angry 60lb hog can be as dangerous as a 200lber. Bottom line is a one on one with a hog, a dog is likely to lose no matter what breed. Hogs are just terribly unpredictable animals that can unzip a dog in seconds.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    What I find interesting is every culture associated with wilderness have bay-dogs (Siberians, North American aboriginals, Australian aboriginals, African bushmen et al), while settled cultures (Europe, Polyensia et al) have catch-dogs.

    Similarly if we look at diets of hunter-gatherers in pigs' habitats they seldom dine on boars preferring horned or antlered game. They even prefer porcupine over tusked animals. Yet agricultural societies widely celebrate boar-hunts.

    Even wolves prefer large deer over boars; with the exception of the Italian peninsula where the roe deer are smaller than boars and the wolves there have an appetite for pigs.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-03 12:15:33
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    @souggy - That's an interesting observation.
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    It just tells us how tough suids are.

    Well, even in the old hunting accounts in North America, sportsmen largely avoided peccaries, not because of how small they were, but how difficult they were to dispatch.

    Not to say people don't eat pigs, but there is a hierarchy of preference depending on the season and abundance of game.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-03 13:04:31
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    40 pounds is not small. It's medium. That pretty obviously didn't happen up there so no, Not every time at least. Some boar may have been separated from their mothers ,or perhaps abandoned. And small boar exist. Too many possibilities to say for sure.


    Size is subjective. In my area, anything inbetween 15 to 40 pounds would be "small", 40 to 70 pounds would be medium and 70 to 90 pounds would be "large". My dog is 62 pounds and 24" tall, and to many people, he's on the small side of "medium".

    But in the big cities, 15 to 30 pound would be considered as "medium".
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-03 13:30:56
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    I guess you also have to take into consideration the fact that hogs are invasive, and so may not have been around in large quantities in America way back when... and so, they couldn't have hunted them.
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    I guess you also have to take into consideration the fact that hogs are invasive, and so may not have been around in large quantities in America way back when... and so, they couldn't have hunted them.


    Never knew peccaries are invasive. ;) But yeah, Theodore Roosevelt and others commented on how thick-skinned they were in the Brazilian jungles and the difficulty of killing them.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-03 15:22:37
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    Peccaries aren't invasive, but they're also not boar/hogs.
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2014-12-03 15:35:57
  • Well all of this is just a hypothetical that hasn't totally been clearly defined (we keep getting clarification as the conversation proceeds)...

    I'm sort of surprised at how the conversation got stuck on boar hunting given that in the original scenario there are deer. Is this because the starting weapon provided in the scenario is a machete (which seems kind of impractical in a lot of ways)? If that is all you are armed with I would think that one would be even more averse to target boars for a food source.

    @souggy - thanks for the fascinating link. It is nice to see someone crunch numbers and estimates rather than the usual vague speculations. It's a great perspective to have.
    Also I wonder if the size thing is geographical and not just the type of environment. I grew up in NYC and live in a city now in the states now and I would say that anecdotally, most people use roughly the same size definitions as you do. Also interesting points on agricultural vs hunting and gathering societies and the dogs to which they orient.

    A friend of mine in Germany once said if you hear a wild boar the first thing you do is climb a tree. Though he also mentioned that the boar there can get quite large (200 kg). I'm assuming that the Japanese/Australian hybrids spoken of by the original poster are significantly smaller.

    @ketsuryu - so are there lakes/rivers (and edible fish) and what is the parasite situation in this scenario? Or were you interested in just the hunting part of the scenario? Also I'd be curious to know if one starts with shelter, or if you would have to build/find one. Do you have means of preservation with you (like a supply of salt)?

    [edited to add]

    I forgot to mention the other questions I had while reading the thread earlier: do you have a whetstone (or other means of keeping the blade honed)? Are there game birds? Are we to assume that there are animals outside of the ones that you mentioned that are typical to this sort of ecosystem?
    Post edited by violet_in_seville at 2014-12-03 16:10:22
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    Well all of this is just a hypothetical that hasn't totally been clearly defined (we keep getting clarification as the conversation proceeds)...

    I'm sort of surprised at how the conversation got stuck on boar hunting given that in the original scenario there are deer. Is this because the starting weapon provided in the scenario is a machete (which seems kind of impractical in a lot of ways)? If that is all you are armed with I would think that one would be even more averse to target boars for a food source.


    The machete observation I haven't really touched on, because I thought it was a no-brainer to not use your woodcrafting blade on skinning or killing animals?

    In many of the woodcraft and bushcraft books, including ones by Col. Townsend Whelen, they often emphasized not using the axe, machete or what so have you on harvesting game or skinning game. They often stated that a separate hunting knife or skinning knife should be dedicated for that purpose to prolong the life of the blade.

    In real life, I use a Havalon surgical knife for skinning because I know skin, bone and feather will ruin the blade. From a practical standpoint, it is easier for me to put a new blade on than it is to sharpen it. Actually, I am considering switching to titanium blade so I don't have to dispose of scalpels all the time.

    The steel knife I have for gutting birds got dull after only a few days, and I can imagine if that require sharpening to keep the blade sharp for batoning timber as well as cutting game, the knife would not have a very long lifespan.

    But even if you look at hunter-gatherer societies, they often use spears or arrows with disposable stone heads in hunting. It would be disastrous to lose a very valuable blade in hunting. The steel knives are reserved for specialized tasks.

    I just do not see the point in re-inventing wheel based on agricultural-hunting techniques when knowledgeable wilderness-trekkers and wilderness-hunters already wrote about what work and what doesn't work.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-03 19:41:17
  • @souggy - do you dress in the field? Do you have any recommendations for books on the subject? I'm interested in reading more, albeit from an intellectual/curiosity standpoint rather than a practical one.

    I'm curious about your scalpel choice because from the perspective of someone who has mostly dealt with domesticated meat and fish, only a few tools are needed. Even in a professional kitchen, resharpening was not particularly time or labor intensive, and you are breaking down a large volume of meat/fish over the course of a week and mostly you sharpened about once a week (and used the hone daily for upkeep). On the other hand, in the kitchen you are only dealing with bone and sinew. I imagine that mammal hide is much rougher on blades? I'm disregarding the wood working for the moment.

    I'd also be curious to poll the people responding to this thread to see how much and what sort of hunting they do. For old time posters I have some idea but I expect that the experience or lack thereof, probably greatly informs these hypothetical choices we would make. Personally, I'm as lazy/urban as one gets but like seeing how people answer.
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    As far as books go, no, I don't have any recommendations, My mother mostly taught me how to fillet fish and dress deer. My father wasn't around all that much, and he hated touching raw meat. The only time I ever seen him process game is cutting open a bird-- once.

    I live in grizzly-country though, so my family taught me to not to delay-- we grew up with the mantra "better to carry four knives than a sharpening stone"... hence why the Havalon is very popular with local hunters here. They want that meat out of the bush before the bears come around.

    I will have to ask my mother since she used to work in the butcher-shop and slaughter-house when she was younger. Maybe domesticated animals are different from wild game. She did both when we were growing up though.

    But yes, cutting meat in the kitchen is different from dressing in the field.

    I think my kitchen knives only get sharpened like once a year; and it's usually the ones used on bread and vegetables which get that treatment on a weekly basis.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-03 16:53:42
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    YouTube is a good source for how to field dress instructions. Normally in my pack I keep a small bone saw, a Gerber hatchet for splitting ribs cages, a good skinner, and two multi purpose skinner/cutter for quartering my game.

    Lately I been using a more traditional japanese Damascus hunting knife that was hand made by a sword maker. It's a pain to maintain but I can field dress couple deer or pigs without ever sharpening the blade.

    @souggy: I used the havalon kit once but the blades tend break pretty easy. I know havalon recently updated their system to keep the blade from breaking. Have you had this issue before?

    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • Well all of this is just a hypothetical that hasn't totally been clearly defined (we keep getting clarification as the conversation proceeds)...

    I'm sort of surprised at how the conversation got stuck on boar hunting given that in the original scenario there are deer. Is this because the starting weapon provided in the scenario is a machete (which seems kind of impractical in a lot of ways)? If that is all you are armed with I would think that one would be even more averse to target boars for a food source.

    @souggy - thanks for the fascinating link. It is nice to see someone crunch numbers and estimates rather than the usual vague speculations. It's a great perspective to have.
    Also I wonder if the size thing is geographical and not just the type of environment. I grew up in NYC and live in a city now in the states now and I would say that anecdotally, most people use roughly the same size definitions as you do. Also interesting points on agricultural vs hunting and gathering societies and the dogs to which they orient.

    A friend of mine in Germany once said if you hear a wild boar the first thing you do is climb a tree. Though he also mentioned that the boar there can get quite large (200 kg). I'm assuming that the Japanese/Australian hybrids spoken of by the original poster are significantly smaller.

    @ketsuryu - so are there lakes/rivers (and edible fish) and what is the parasite situation in this scenario? Or were you interested in just the hunting part of the scenario? Also I'd be curious to know if one starts with shelter, or if you would have to build/find one. Do you have means of preservation with you (like a supply of salt)?

    [edited to add]

    I forgot to mention the other questions I had while reading the thread earlier: do you have a whetstone (or other means of keeping the blade honed)? Are there game birds? Are we to assume that there are animals outside of the ones that you mentioned that are typical to this sort of ecosystem?


    There are some edible fish,but they are at deeper depths.. There are plenty if deer ticks and a few fleas. You have a 4kg bag of salt. You've got to make a shelter. As for the whetstone, no there is none. No game birds. And only the animals I listed. I'm glad you asked.

    And p.s. The boar here are around 70-120 pounds. They're dwarfs. There are indeed deer and you can hunt them. In fact, I'd suggest hunting them more often. But just in case of predator/boars it's best to have a good tough catch dog with you. A mid sized dog is the best, preferably with prick ears. (Jindoes and heeler crosses come to mind.)
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2082
    @Ketsuryu I'm curious why the catch dog should preferably have prick-ears. What advantage does a prick-eard dog have over a drop-eared dog in this regard? Or is that just your personal preference...
    image
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247

    @souggy: I used the havalon kit once but the blades tend break pretty easy. I know havalon recently updated their system to keep the blade from breaking. Have you had this issue before?


    @shishiinu Mine is about two years old, so I don't know if it predates the update or not. But yes, the scalpels break easily. It's okay, because they are replaceable and quick. That's actually central to their marketing.

    But that's kind of why I am looking at Krestel Knives. I kind of feel guilty for the ecological footprint left behind by those Havalons.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-03 21:12:07
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    No game-bird is fine...

    Just read "Our Vanishing Wildlife". A lot of the lower-class ate songbirds. ;) Hard to imagine an ecosystem which doesn't have bird-- never been in one. :D

    As far as foxes go... I'll leave this up:





    Not sure why anyone want to "catch" bobcats seeing a lot of dogs die to cats.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-03 23:13:44
  • Oops - I'm so dumb. I was asking about woodcraft and bushcraft books, not field dressing. I just realized that I forgot to hit enter and totally miscommunicated though I am also curious about dressing. Thanks for the reference @shishiinu.

    @souggy - I wasn't thinking about sharpening in the field. That makes a lot more sense and I can see why your set of tools would be totally different. I've only ever had to break down domesticated animals, in a kitchen setting, and relatively small ones at that. I am definitely curious as to what your mother might say as to any potential differences between domesticated and wild animals though.

    @ketsuryu - Now I'm sort of curious. My very vague and completely uninformed recollection is that most predators tend to only go after people when provoked, or if there are issues arising from human disruption to the ecosystem. The hypothetical ecosystem you've laid out strikes me as one where the ratio of predator to prey is rather high. Am I completely wrong about how most of these predators function, or are the conditions set forth reflective of some human disruption to an optimally functioning ecosystem and that means that these predators are more likely to attack?
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    The problem with many of the woodcraft or bushcraft books out there is many of the authors never did long-term survival. So many of the advice given are for short-term survival.

    The other thing is the more you read, the more you see the techniques evolve due to legal restraints.

    The earlier pioneers of long-term survival were Townend Whelen, Horace Kephart, Bradford Angier, George Washington Sears and E.H. Kreps. But they were fair-weathered bushmen. For cold-weather references, it's best to check out Vilhjalmur Stefanson and Mors Kochanski.

    But here are the classics:



    Sorry some of them don't have links. They're not public domain yet.

    But as time goes on and hunting laws were enforced, along with fire-bans and the Leave No Trace principle, the books themselves changed. Most of the recent survival books became only proven on private properties and not in the actual wilderness.

    Townsend Whelen was truly one of the last people who were able to get away with some of the practices which would be considered illegal today. Modern practices would only live on with a few select Canadians like Kochanski where the wilderness laws are more liberal.

    In the era where bushcraft methods were banned on public land, the books become more orientated about long-distance backpacking-- Ryan Jordan, Andrew Skurka and Ray Jardine are the go-to authors. The rest of the other authors in this niche don't have long-term plans on how to survive on their own unsupported.

    The classic which all of backpackers refer to is:

    • The Complete Walker (1968, 1974, 1984)


    The 2002 edition of the Complete Walker is not very good...
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-03 22:23:30
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    @violet_in_seville: there's a wide range of predators in NA. Many of the large predators that will eat you without provocation are the larger bears (griz,Browns,polars) and Mr. Lions. There have been reports of wolves and Jaguars stalking people but very rarely do they attack. I have been stalked by a Mt Lion before and it's very scary. Especially at 4am walking to a deer stand.

    Where I live in socal, the mt lion population is extremely high to where their numbers have surpassed what the environment can handle. Because of that you end up with a lot of young and old cats that prey on humans because we are so easy for them to catch.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
    Post edited by shishiinu at 2014-12-03 22:54:02
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    Most of the ones listed in the scenarios are mesopredators. The eagle is the only one I can see which could be considered as alpha.

    Mesopredators can exist in higher population density than alpha predators; and in greater varieties as well.

    Just ask the Brits or the Americans how over-populated their coyotes and foxes are.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-03 23:14:05
  • @souggy - thanks for all of the awesome reference info. I find the bit that you have shared really interesting already so I'm looking forward to some new reading.

    @souggy, @shishiinu - thanks for the info/feedback on predators. I've spent most of my life in concrete jungles of one form or another so my familiarity with animal behavior is quite minimal. It is definitely interesting to know which predators do stalk and will attack.

    The scenario that I was inquiring about was the one mentioned by @shishiinu, where the population numbers have surpassed what the environment can handle and that is why they are attacking people unprovoked. Because otherwise given the predators mentioned in the original scenario, I wasn't sure why one would need a catch dog over a good bay dog.
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    The term catch dog and bay dog is derived from American hog hunting dogs. The way it usually works is a hunter will have two or three good bay dogs. One of these bay dogs will be a strike dog (the most experienced with a good nose that finds the hog or is able to track the scent). Once the strike dog "strikes" the scent, the hunter releases the bay dogs to round up the hog by "baying" or barking. Once the bay dogs get a hog rounded up, the hunter comes in closer with a leashed catch dog. The catch dog is usually a pitbull, dogo, or bull dog type dog. The hunter will release the catch dog and the catch dog will go in and grab ahold of the hog, giving the other bay dogs a chance to also get in and hold the dog. Once the hog is held down, the hunter will go in with a knife, a gun, or hobbles to restrain the hog to be released in a pen.

    One of the big reasons why I like the kishu so much is I can get all three of these dogs in one. My dog taro can find, bay, and will catch. He's a really well all rounded dog.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
    Post edited by shishiinu at 2014-12-04 11:36:04
  • No game-bird is fine...

    Just read "Our Vanishing Wildlife". A lot of the lower-class ate songbirds. ;) Hard to imagine an ecosystem which doesn't have bird-- never been in one. :D

    As far as foxes go... I'll leave this up:





    Not sure why anyone want to "catch" bobcats seeing a lot of dogs die to cats.


    Dogs die to cats? Since when? I've never seen a good of lose to a cat.

    @Ketsuryu I'm curious why the catch dog should preferably have prick-ears. What advantage does a prick-eard dog have over a drop-eared dog in this regard? Or is that just your personal preference...


    Well to be honest, I have no real preference. However, prick eared dogs have better hearing.
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    I am guessing you don't have friends in the hunting world...

    There are loads of stories of dogs dying to lynxes, bobcats and cougars.

    Last winter, a friend of mine lost his dog to a Eurasian lynx. It succumbed to infections after a nasty fight when the cat refused to tree. Dog survived the fight, but the antibiotics didn't work.

    And once or twice a year, there's news about how someone's hound or cur got mauled by an old Tom which got fed up with being pursued for hours and decided to stand.

    Wish I can find that video of a puma taking out a whole pack of Dogo Argentinos before the hunters released more dogs.

    There's a saying about predator-aggressive dogs:

    "Good dogs don't live long".
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-04 17:46:00
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    Yes dogs get eaten all the time from lions. We don't have Lynx here and the Bobcats aren't too big but Bobcats can definitely do some damage to a over confident dog. Won't be able to kill a decent size dog on its own but these little cats can scalpel a dog fast.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • Oh I see. You're one of those people who believe that cats are a flying ball if razor blades. Well I hate to break it to you, not only is what you said ludicrous, it's almost always the other way around. There are no reliable accounts of a cat doing such things. I'm not inclined to use an old hunters tale as evidence. I've got bobcat predation rates and a good few we're killed by coyotes and dogs. I've found an account of a cougar killed by a wolf. Bobcats don't kill "good" dogs from what I've seen, and cougars aren't samurai swords.
    I am guessing you don't have friends in the hunting world...

    There are loads of stories of dogs dying to lynxes, bobcats and cougars.

    Last winter, a friend of mine lost his dog to a Eurasian lynx. It succumbed to infections after a nasty fight when the cat refused to tree. Dog survived the fight, but the antibiotics didn't work.

    And once or twice a year, there's news about how someone's hound or cur got mauled by an old Tom which got fed up with being pursued for hours and decided to stand.

    Wish I can find that video of a puma taking out a whole pack of Dogo Argentinos before the hunters released more dogs.

    There's a saying about predator-aggressive dogs:

    "Good dogs don't live long".


  • That was to souggy btw.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    Idk, even domestic cats can pack quite a punch. Should have seen the damage my sister's 10lb fluff ball did to a rottie that wandered into our yard, poor dog needed quite a few stitches and almost lost an eye. I'd hate to see the damage a cougar or bobcat could do to a dog.
    image
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    This video also comes to mind (graphic content, those with sensitive stomachs shouldn't watch):
    image
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    @ketsuryu: try doing a Google search on incidents here in Cali. There's been more than a few times where a home owners golden retriever ended up over a fence in the mouth of a cougar. It's actually a pretty big problem here. Little lap dogs end up becoming coyote and bobcat food all the time.

    Have you ever been around a dead bobcat or lion? I have taken Bobcats with my old dog Riki and have seen a dead lion (illegal to hunt lions here). I can tell from first hand experience that these cats have very sharp claws and they can definitely cut through flesh and fur with very little effort.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    More videos


    image
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    Note I said "dying from", not "killed by".

    And these are not old tales. I have seen some of these torn up cat-hounds in person. It's not pretty. Hunting cats is a time-honored tradition in British Columbia and Alberta.

    People still die from infections inflicted by mere house-cats; or at least their limbs amputated.

    Hell, a dog of mine lost both of his eyes to an infection caused by a cat scratch-- nowhere near his eyes. The infection migrated through the bloodstream.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-04 19:56:41
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1822
    I would easily believe a large cat could take a dog out or cause extensive injuries. I mean, my Kishu - who has hunted boar with @shishiinu - was MESSED UP by my grandmother's 5 pound house cat because she was over-confident.

    Of course, at the time, I made the same error in thinking - thinking it was the cat that was injured and gushing blood everywhere; she was lethargic and bloody, but none of the blood was from the cat.

    Nami had pretty nasty injuries to her face, stomach, and legs - they healed quickly with antibiotics, but if a 5 pound cat can do that much damage, I have no trouble thinking that a larger animal could take a hunting dog.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • It's pretty obvious a mountain lion could kill a dog. I don't know why anyone wouldn't believe hunters experiences, or, frankly, just see the obvious: of course a mountain lion could kill a dog or injure it badly enough that it would die (frankly the same thing if you ask me, though the dog may not die on the spot). Mountain lions can and do kill people, too. Plus, what's with the really rude tone--dismissing someone else's experience and knowledge as ludicrous?

    Just like coyotes kill dogs, and not just small ones either.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2014-12-04 20:45:08
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    This Los Angeles area mountain lion killed a 100 lb German Shepherd.

    http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Aggressive-Mountain-Lion-Attack-Fontana-248603131.html
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 508
    @Ketsuryu, some of your comments are oddly dismissive. Most of the people responding are speaking from personal experience raising and hunting with these dogs.

    And thanks to @akinno's link, I'm thinking some of those smaller terrier breeds (jagdterrier, patterdale) would be efficient with the smaller game on this hypothetical island, including the dwarf pigs! According to that California Catchers guy, the smaller dogs "fly" better when thrown by a boar.

    @shishiinu, all this has made me curious about how your Kishu hunt together. Do you have pictures? And where in SoCal do you go? I never think about running into pigs down here (just coyotes) ..should I?!
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    I should have several threads with photos on here. There aren't oo many hogs in socal as it really depends on where you go. I'm in San diego and there's a growing population here. There's hogs in San bernadino, riverside, and kern.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • cdenneycdenney
    Posts: 961
    Umm maybe I haven't read the latest veterinary books but did anyone else catch the fact that he said 'pick eared dogs hear better'? Uh okay, show me the proof please because last time I checked the only difference was the slightly, and i mean slightly, higher potential for flop eared dogs to have an ear infection. Ironically in the five dogs I've owned 3 were flops, never had a an ear infection and two our pick ears both of which have had ear infections.

    Also of that's the case of better hearing for picks why are alost all hounds flops?
    image
    image
    Post edited by cdenney at 2014-12-04 23:24:56
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975

    Also of that's the case of better hearing for picks why are alost all hounds flops?


    I remember hearing something, not sure how true it is, about how the floppy ears allow for hounds to track better since they rely more on their sniffers than their hearing. Something to do with the ears coming into contact with the scent trail and picking up bits of scent, which act as a reminder of the scent they are tracking. Idk, not really a hound person so don't really know, I think a good majority of us overlooked the ear thing due to some other misinformed comments made.
    image
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    It was a fun thread, and it was interesting to see people's choices and how they reflect a person's background. For instance, we see @BradA1878 picks Dogos because of his fascination with mossoloids. We also know he lived in Georgia for awhile, hence his fimilarity with curs and leopard hounds.

    We also see @shishiinu picks Kishu because of his cultural identity as a Japanese immigrant, childhood familiarity and lifelong obsession. But he did not leave out the Plotts because his background in the American hunting scene and how they are widely used all over North America.

    We also got to see a bit of a nerdgasm with the mentions of Dire Wolves and Blink Dogs.

    But the thread kind of stopped being fun when it became ____ breed is better than ____ breed. Especially when it became _____ breed has _____ super-power.

    We tend to forget dog breeds merely only byproducts of culture. Many cultures developed dogs to suit all needs across the spectrum. It's our own biases and preferences which lead us to favour one over another. In reality, most of those dogs can probably stand equal to one another. The only things which separate them is possible opportunities.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-05 00:42:47
  • cdenneycdenney
    Posts: 961
    @souggy you are a brilliant man! Yessss to everything above!
    image
    image
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    The thread stopped being fun for me when snow was being mentioned for a savannah/temperate environment.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    I totally agree with @souggy ... Well put, Dave.
  • The thread stopped being fun for me when snow was being mentioned for a savannah/temperate environment.


    I mentioned mountains. Which is where the deer and rabbits will be.
    It was a fun thread, and it was interesting to see people's choices and how they reflect a person's background. For instance, we see @BradA1878 picks Dogos because of his fascination with mossoloids. We also know he lived in Georgia for awhile, hence his fimilarity with curs and leopard hounds.

    We also see @shishiinu picks Kishu because of his cultural identity as a Japanese immigrant, childhood familiarity and lifelong obsession. But he did not leave out the Plotts because his background in the American hunting scene and how they are widely used all over North America.

    We also got to see a bit of a nerdgasm with the mentions of Dire Wolves and Blink Dogs.

    But the thread kind of stopped being fun when it became ____ breed is better than ____ breed. Especially when it became _____ breed has _____ super-power.

    We tend to forget dog breeds merely only byproducts of culture. Many cultures developed dogs to suit all needs across the spectrum. It's our own biases and preferences which lead us to favour one over another. In reality, most of those dogs can probably stand equal to one another. The only things which separate them is possible opportunities.


    Whilst we have had disagreements, this is one of the most intelligent posts I have seen. Every dog has a purpose and some will excel at it more than other dogs, however, the wide variation within dogs lets people pick their favorite. No dog is the strongest, as there are exceptions to every rule. I totally agree with your view on this.



    Also of that's the case of better hearing for picks why are alost all hounds flops?


    I remember hearing something, not sure how true it is, about how the floppy ears allow for hounds to track better since they rely more on their sniffers than their hearing. Something to do with the ears coming into contact with the scent trail and picking up bits of scent, which act as a reminder of the scent they are tracking. Idk, not really a hound person so don't really know, I think a good majority of us overlooked the ear thing due to some other misinformed comments made.


    Yup. That is correct, it's why bloodhounds and beagles have such long ears.
    @Ketsuryu, some of your comments are oddly dismissive. Most of the people responding are speaking from personal experience raising and hunting with these dogs.

    And thanks to @akinno's link, I'm thinking some of those smaller terrier breeds (jagdterrier, patterdale) would be efficient with the smaller game on this hypothetical island, including the dwarf pigs! According to that California Catchers guy, the smaller dogs "fly" better when thrown by a boar.

    @shishiinu, all this has made me curious about how your Kishu hunt together. Do you have pictures? And where in SoCal do you go? I never think about running into pigs down here (just coyotes) ..should I?!


    I'm talking about his comment about a cougar taking out multiple dogos. That's pretty ridiculous. Single dogs have fought off cougars before, and those are documented Occurrences. While a cougar would have little trouble killing a single dog, several is not happening. While I respect their experience, I'm not believing something like that. I'm sorry if I come off as rude it's simply the way I talk.
    Post edited by Ketsuryu at 2014-12-05 14:11:46
  • This Los Angeles area mountain lion killed a 100 lb German Shepherd.

    http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Aggressive-Mountain-Lion-Attack-Fontana-248603131.html



    It's pretty obvious a mountain lion could kill a dog. I don't know why anyone wouldn't believe hunters experiences, or, frankly, just see the obvious: of course a mountain lion could kill a dog or injure it badly enough that it would die (frankly the same thing if you ask me, though the dog may not die on the spot). Mountain lions can and do kill people, too. Plus, what's with the really rude tone--dismissing someone else's experience and knowledge as ludicrous?

    Just like coyotes kill dogs, and not just small ones either.



    I'm talking about this quote :

    "Wish I can find that video of a puma taking out a whole pack of Dogo Argentinos before the hunters released more dogs."


    ^that seems highly unlikely.. A single dog is no problem for a puma. But killing a pack of trained catch dogs close to its own weight? Doesn't seem very credible.
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    I was like you once. Young, idealistic, not yet financially solvent. I had bizarre ideas of what dogs should be based on books and forums. My whole world flipped upside down once I actually re-did my hunting exam (because the laws changed since I last did it), and bought my first real hunting dog.

    All the sudden, YouTube, books and forums weren't good enough anymore. I needed a mentor, and someone to talk to. So, I began making friends who hunted with all kind of different breeds. It's a shame their wisdom are not written down, but it's understandable, most people only have the time to write when they are retired.

    I suggest you finish your studies, become independent and find your own path by buying your own dog. Once you gain some experience, you realize all those videos, those forum posts, those books and so on are only partial. They still require a bit of reality to string them together to form a cohesive applicable theory which can be used in real life.

    My claims are not unreasonable. You suggested in the survival scenario: a machete, two dogs and some gears. Nothing else. No axe. No knives. No guns.

    Using a machete for game is not a very good idea. It would best to set that aside for cutting and chopping wood. It's not exactly that hard to make a blade out of stone or spear out of wood; nor it is hard to find a whetstone if one knows what kind hardness and texture they are looking for.

    If I had more than two dogs, or at least an population to breed to-- like village-dogs or feral dogs, then I could do the same thing as some of the old crankers in the Appalachians and the Rockies who are alone living off the land. Developing one's own strain from a population of nearby dogs is an everyday occurance.

    But because there is that self-imposed limit of only two dogs-- breeding them doesn't make a lot of sense, especially if there is a high risk that they will throw bad litters. Maybe only 10% or 20% of the puppies produced will be good enough to advance the program, and the only way to tell if the dog turns out good is to actually hunt with them, and cull out the bad ones-- either by re-homing, putting them down or letting natural selection do its job.

    Besides, coydogs and wolfdogs have very unstable temperament and are ill-suited for breeding. It would take at least 3 generations to purge the bad traits. In a survival situation, there won't be enough time to do that. One is looking at devoting at least 6 years of his life to establishing a solid foundation stock.

    I don't like those odds. So, it would be a better investment of my time and energy in ensuring I don't lose my two dogs instead of trying to propagate some more. You see this strategy with people who live in remote cabins and remote camps. They don't have a use for dogs which are over-confident, unless the dogs can be easily replaced at the near-by village or town.

    Secondly, old animals are the worst. The stories you read and hear about with bruins and Toms tearing apart dogs are all old ones which got tired of being chased all their lives. Every hunter will eventually run into that scenario at least once in their life.

    Thirdly, if you actually know anything about cougar-wolf relation complex, you would realize wolf-packs are most stable when they number 15-30 individuals. Most hound-packs are limited to only 2 to 5. In some places, they do number up to 10.

    Comparing 15-30 hundred-pounds of pure muscled wolves to a a pack of 5 thirty-to-eighty pounds dogs which haven't been favoured by natural selection, but artificial selection, is just nonsense.

    If you have noticed what you've quoted, the puma decided to stand and fight then fled when the hunters released more dogs. The cat was eventually treed and shot.

    Most cats don't choose to fight because they are ambush predators and are at a disadvantage when caught off-guard. Their default is to flee.

    But we also have to remember being pursued for kilometers on end is a very unnatural thing. Wolves drive off cougars to carve a territory for themselves and to claim carcasses. Dogs, on the other hand, are bred by people, to be relentless and chase them for hours on end. Eventually, one is going to run into an animal which don't want to put with that.

    However, I still encourage hounding because the act fills in an ecological niche left empty from depredating wolves and grizzlies. Without wolves and grizzlies as alpha-predators, the cougar and black bears' behaviours are modified and cause problems for people. Bear-dogs and cat-hounds are required to fill that emptiness. The risk of losing a few dogs is for the greater good.

    Unfortunately, YouTube now has the policy of taking down videos of hunting or any kind of animal-suffering. I am really disappointed I can't find that video.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-05 18:03:02

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

In this Discussion