More Kai Ken adjustment advice/rant
I've been getting into a few arguments as of late with my boyfriend about Kiba (almost 3 years old).
The arguments are always around how long it will take for him to adjust and if he will ever become a playful dog either with us or our shiba.
My boyfriend thinks that Kiba will never become a playful dog and he will never play with our shiba because in "his experience" of seeing dogs act the way he does, that he will never get out of it.
For backstory for anyone who doesn't know, Kiba was rehomed from Kim Fairbanks in Portland. So he doesn't come from an abusive home and he comes from only one home. He was the runt of her pack, and every though Kim never stated that the dogs fought, she did say he mostly liked being around the people because the other dogs were super high energy and was bad at giving him his space. He did play with his littermate Yama a lot because he was one of the few who was gentle enough with him.
Adam thinks Kiba was used as a punching bag by the other dogs (which again Kim never said, she said she even free fed all of them quite easily and the pack got along pretty well, and she took many of them out traveling together). So he thinks Kiba never got to play and be a normal dog, therefore he will never be a dog.
We have only had Kiba for almost 3 months now. He set back a bit because we moved apartments a month ago and that is stressful even for our shiba. He does interact with us, but mostly hides and stays in his safe places. But if we close his crate for a couple hours, he likes to sit at our feet or near us. There are other place he can go to be alone, but he does prefer to be with us when crate access is taken away. We are only doing this because I was reading about trying to smoothly force interactions so that they aren't just hiding and staying in their crate 24/hours a day. When we close the crate, we pretty much do our own thing and just let him wander.
Our shiba loves him. She wants to interact with him so badly but she is really good at giving him his space. She is very gentle with him, starting to not bug him in his crate anymore, and she doesn't pester him. She likes to come and sniff him which he doesn't seem bothered. Pretty much their interactions are completely neutral and for the most part, Kiba just ignores Taro. Which I've been told is still a positive interaction this early in the game. But he has sniffed her on occasion and does look at her in a non-aggressive manner when she comes by him outside of his crate.
I keep telling him that Kai Kens can take a really long time to adjust. That we shouldn't even expect him coming around and feeling comfortable until we have had him for 6 months and that he might not interact with Taro for a full year.
But he says that he has seen dogs act like him. Hiding, scared, not really interacting and that they never get out of it. I keep arguing that those were all shelter dogs that have more psychological issues and that they weren't even his dogs. He is comparing our dog to friends dogs over the years. His dogs were just farm dogs that had no issues and pretty much did their own thing. So even with our Shiba, some things have been a struggle because we don't live on a farm, we don't have an invisible fence, we actually have to walk the dogs and entertain them instead of them going out whenever they want and chasing cows.
Basically is there any hint that Kiba will never adjust? From everything anyone has told me, that dogs just need time. That it took a year for their 2 dogs to play with each other and that they did get playful.
I am getting tired of arguing with him about it when we made the decision together to get Kiba and I forwarned him several times that this will take up to 6 months to a year before we will really see Kiba come around to us. I just hate it because I am trying to be optimistic and not think of negative things about Kiba when in my opinion I see no need to. Who is to say he wont be playful with Taro? He is twice her size. He has a small play buddy for the first time ever. Plus a play buddy who is gentle, patient, and gives space. What dog wouldn't want to eventually at least interact with that? I was never expecting a dog relationship like Taro's cattledog friend who she plays super rough with because they are the same age and grew up together. It's a different relationship. I imagine hers and Kiba's to become more like my friends pug and bulldog. The pug is high energy and crazy all over the place and the pug and bulldog play just a bit, but the bulldog adores the pug. They may not play because the difference in energy, but they have a very strong bond.
I'm just trying. I want everything to work out with Kiba. He is a sweetheart and Kim and her husband loved him very much. I don't want to just throw in the mental towel because my boyfriend is I guess trying to be "realistic"?
The arguments are always around how long it will take for him to adjust and if he will ever become a playful dog either with us or our shiba.
My boyfriend thinks that Kiba will never become a playful dog and he will never play with our shiba because in "his experience" of seeing dogs act the way he does, that he will never get out of it.
For backstory for anyone who doesn't know, Kiba was rehomed from Kim Fairbanks in Portland. So he doesn't come from an abusive home and he comes from only one home. He was the runt of her pack, and every though Kim never stated that the dogs fought, she did say he mostly liked being around the people because the other dogs were super high energy and was bad at giving him his space. He did play with his littermate Yama a lot because he was one of the few who was gentle enough with him.
Adam thinks Kiba was used as a punching bag by the other dogs (which again Kim never said, she said she even free fed all of them quite easily and the pack got along pretty well, and she took many of them out traveling together). So he thinks Kiba never got to play and be a normal dog, therefore he will never be a dog.
We have only had Kiba for almost 3 months now. He set back a bit because we moved apartments a month ago and that is stressful even for our shiba. He does interact with us, but mostly hides and stays in his safe places. But if we close his crate for a couple hours, he likes to sit at our feet or near us. There are other place he can go to be alone, but he does prefer to be with us when crate access is taken away. We are only doing this because I was reading about trying to smoothly force interactions so that they aren't just hiding and staying in their crate 24/hours a day. When we close the crate, we pretty much do our own thing and just let him wander.
Our shiba loves him. She wants to interact with him so badly but she is really good at giving him his space. She is very gentle with him, starting to not bug him in his crate anymore, and she doesn't pester him. She likes to come and sniff him which he doesn't seem bothered. Pretty much their interactions are completely neutral and for the most part, Kiba just ignores Taro. Which I've been told is still a positive interaction this early in the game. But he has sniffed her on occasion and does look at her in a non-aggressive manner when she comes by him outside of his crate.
I keep telling him that Kai Kens can take a really long time to adjust. That we shouldn't even expect him coming around and feeling comfortable until we have had him for 6 months and that he might not interact with Taro for a full year.
But he says that he has seen dogs act like him. Hiding, scared, not really interacting and that they never get out of it. I keep arguing that those were all shelter dogs that have more psychological issues and that they weren't even his dogs. He is comparing our dog to friends dogs over the years. His dogs were just farm dogs that had no issues and pretty much did their own thing. So even with our Shiba, some things have been a struggle because we don't live on a farm, we don't have an invisible fence, we actually have to walk the dogs and entertain them instead of them going out whenever they want and chasing cows.
Basically is there any hint that Kiba will never adjust? From everything anyone has told me, that dogs just need time. That it took a year for their 2 dogs to play with each other and that they did get playful.
I am getting tired of arguing with him about it when we made the decision together to get Kiba and I forwarned him several times that this will take up to 6 months to a year before we will really see Kiba come around to us. I just hate it because I am trying to be optimistic and not think of negative things about Kiba when in my opinion I see no need to. Who is to say he wont be playful with Taro? He is twice her size. He has a small play buddy for the first time ever. Plus a play buddy who is gentle, patient, and gives space. What dog wouldn't want to eventually at least interact with that? I was never expecting a dog relationship like Taro's cattledog friend who she plays super rough with because they are the same age and grew up together. It's a different relationship. I imagine hers and Kiba's to become more like my friends pug and bulldog. The pug is high energy and crazy all over the place and the pug and bulldog play just a bit, but the bulldog adores the pug. They may not play because the difference in energy, but they have a very strong bond.
I'm just trying. I want everything to work out with Kiba. He is a sweetheart and Kim and her husband loved him very much. I don't want to just throw in the mental towel because my boyfriend is I guess trying to be "realistic"?
Comments
Yes he was. I think she kept both his mom and dad in the rehome process. She ended up needing to rehome half her dogs since she decided to shut down her business.
Anyway, I believe Kiba's mother is Kailee. Is that correct?
ETA - If my memory is correct, Yama (the import) broke his leg. Doing a bit of research, it appears she called him "Fester". So I guess maybe she renamed Yama (import) to "Fester" and then named one of her pups "Yama"?
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/6609/i-would-love-your-input-thank-you
I would need to look at Kiba's papers (his name was Chiba when he was with Kim). I think Kailee is his mom but can't say for sure. Yama is the one who broke his leg so she did rename him at some point.
From the posting which I found out about him, it said about Kiba (Chiba)
"He gets along and plays well with the others but because of his smaller size is on his back a lot in the submissive position except for with the pack clown (Yama) whom he jumps on his feet and yaps at as if to say ‘you are not going to bother or boss me’." http://shibainus.ca/kai-ken-needing-homes/ (old posting so I am surprised this is still live since all those dogs have been rehomed)
Like I said, I felt there was nothing ever stating that Kiba(Chiba) wouldn't get along with another dog.
He really does love to be held and cuddled. He puts his paw on us if we spot petting him or nudges our hand.
Fastforward a year and a half later and I swear Vance misses TK more than me now that we're living separate from one another, lol. This is a huge change for Kiba and I love seeing pictures and hearing his successes, even if they're small. It's still something. Not every dog learns at the same rate - just like people.
I don't have a whole lot else right yet. I'm interested in what other owners and Brad will have to say!
This also means that Kiba's father is Tyson's littermate. I imported Tyson around the same time as Kim imported Kaito. Tyson lives with my friend in NC now. Tyson is a somewhat reactive dog, he can be standoffish and not playful with new dogs and people too.
Putting all that together, I guess it's not surprising to me that Kiba would be pretty slow to bond and would avoid your other dog. I think I agree that it sounds like Kiba may have been bullied by the other dogs at Kim's, which would just make him even less secure.
All of that to say, I think he will bond to you guys and start to play, but it will take awhile. I think he'll play with your Shiba too, but at 3 years old, he may not be much of a player anymore. I know my Kai don't play a whole lot now that they're older.
He is still very new to you guys, I would guess it will take 6+ months for him to really bond.
If you'd like to read about the litter (I think) Kiba is from, check out this post: http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/6177/kailee-and-kaito-had-kai-ken-puppies
Thank you so much for the info! I am trying hard not to snap at my BF and tell him that it will take more time with him. I think if he never gets super playful with Taro is OK. As long as they can be buddies and interact on some level, she will be completely happy with that. My Shiba is a year old now and even for a shiba she isn't too high energy. She is playful, but she definitely has her NO PLAY TIME moments and she sleeps quite a bit.
Glad to hear more about their personality though. My BF did at least agree that we can't really make any huge decisions about Kiba until a year has passed. My biggest concern is that he will never adjust and I have to take him back to Kim because if he doesn't, that will be the best for him (which we discussed that possibility).
I just think 3 months is way too soon to be making brash bold statements about his personality and future.
@jwallwalrus We adopted a female Shikoku about 3 years ago and let me tell you, it wasn't a walk in the park. It sucked... lol... really bad. She would pee herself out of fear, memorized all the possible routes to the house in a 2-mile radius and refused to go back while on walks. She would hide under desks, paced the house and yard like a wild animal, trembled out of fear, tried to dig her way out of the yard anytime we left her unsupervised for even a minute, tried to claw her way out of windows, only liked us in certain areas of the house and was scared of us in others, didn't want to play.... I can keep going... She even literally crapped herself one time when my husband came around the corner and surprised her.
My point is that it takes time. Time, love, and patience. Some people can handle it, and some people can not. And I'm not talking about not being able to handle the wait time or being patient, but the heartbreak/rejection we feel after giving them so much love and time and having it all go to crap when we drop something loud on the ground and weeks' worth of work goes out the window. It sucks. It really does. Now I look back and I would go through that all over again. I love my girly and she loves us... In her own weird way, but she loves us. I can't guarantee that Kiba will be what you want or need him to be, but dogs know when we give them love and are patient with them. They come around eventually when they learn to trust us and we them. The love you work for is the one that's most rewarding.
In the case of my Kai and Shikoku, they can sense when we are frustrated and annoyed and they tend to shut down. They work better with us when we are patient and loving. Not saying that you are not, but being frustrated does not help them open up. This is a long-term thing. Once we started treating ChoCho like she was our dog and not like she was on trial, we saw a huge change. Even now, three years later, we're still seeing gradual improvements with how she reacts to us. It wasn't too long ago that she started wagging her tail when we came back after leaving her crated up for a bit.
Of course, every dog is different and will progress at different rates. It's just up to us try to figure out anything that makes it better. And that can take a lot of experimentation.
Anyway, hope this helps...
That is actually nice to hear. I know I get down and depressed a bit because Kiba definitely prefers my boyfriend over me and I am the one that spends the most time with him, exercises him the most, feeds him, cares for him etc and it is super depressing to see him terrified of me, but OK with my boyfriend. I mean there are plenty of reasons why that could be the case. Maybe he prefers men. Maybe BF lower voice is more soothing, maybe it is because I was the one that drove him home by myself so I am the one that ruined his life (in his mind). I try to stay positive that eventually he won't be terrified of me.
What were your (or your bf's) expectations for him? That he fetch toys and wrestle with Taro? Is it a deal breaker if he is naturally more of a catlike couch potato? How did he interact at his previous home with dogs and people? If he didn't "play" then, he probably isn't predisposed to it.
What are Kim's opinions of his transition? Does she think he is unhappy?
Oh, any progress with the fear-pooping issue?
P.S. The pics are cute! Start a thread for him and post more often!
Once she became more accepting of me (after about 4 months of having her), I researched alternative bonding techniques and decided on umbilical training. Basically, she was hooked to her 6 foot leash that was hooked to me. She went everywhere I went. Its not for everyone or every dog, but it worked well for us. I got her a new kennel and put it next to my Chihuahuas kennel so they could see each other, but not be in each other's business.
After a year of having her, I was finally able to take her to training. We backslid a bit around the holidays (she was given up around Christmas 2 years in a row), but she adjusted reasonably quick.
I know the frustration. I loved Mya before she was mine and I just wanted her to know that and maybe grow to care for me and like her New home. I would sit on the floor outside her room and cry every night out of frustration and sadness. It's been 4 years to the day since i got her, and she has evolved into a wonderful, yet quirky, dog. It's hard, but Kiba needs your patience and love. He may never be what you imagined, but I can tell you love him and will accept him for what he is.
(A side note: my Shiba tolerates me, but adores my husband. He came in the picture a little over a year after I got Mya and she bonded with him instantly. It kind of hurt my feelings, but I figure as long as she is happy, I'm happy.)
Kim hasn't said anything that was concerning. I try to keep her updated every couple of weeks with detailed info and pics. I emailed her last week and haven't heard back yet in response to his update.
From what Kim said, Kiba did play with the other dogs, but definitely less than the rest and he preferred being around his people. I think my BF fears is mostly having a dog that hides and is scared all the time, which I just don't think he will be that for the rest of his life.
When I first got him, he wasn't as fearful as your Kiba, but he would just hide in the bedroom and not want to socialize with anyone. He would just stand or lay down just out of sight and watch. He did this for a very long time. If he was laying down and I went over to pet him and sit down next to him he would get up and walk away from me. Today I can curl up behind him and hold him.. and even nap with him.
Slowly, over time, he would creep out and check out what was going on. He wouldn't play with anything and he was constantly on watch and unsure how to 'behave' so he was quiet and waiting.
Maybe 6 months to a year is when he started to open up and show us his personality. And I mean 'started'. He started to be more playful. He would come and check in on us or lay down in the same room with us. He would show some interest in toys. He would start to follow our shiba around.
Fast forward to 2 years later, and Ty is still coming out of his shell for us. It is amazing to see how far he has come over the last two years. His full on goofy personality. Wanting to play and initiating play with our shiba. He goes on full guard mode when my other half is away. He will sit on the stairs and stare at the door while I'm awake. When I go to bed he may move and lay in front of the bedroom threshold. If he hears something that alerts him he will put on his full air raid siren..
His newest items of coming out of the shy and reserved space are issues with the bed/furniture and putting up a watchful guard.
Ty was afraid to be on furniture and his demeanor would completely change to "I NEED OUT NOW" if you even set him on the bed. I think they may have come from his original home of being shoved off constantly and scolded harshly. The past two months he is trying to over come this. He is not afraid to come on the bed now. He will lay there pretty much all day when we are up. He is still uncomfortable to sleep on the bed when we are there. Our shiba sleeps on the bed too. Although, every once in a while he will hop up in the middle of the night and sleep with all of us.
His guarding has increased. If I need to take our shiba out in the middle of the night to go potty he is right there wanting to go to. However, he stays by my side and then will turn in each direction to watch and listen. He won't go sniff or potty unless I tell him it's okay go ahead. And even then he doesn't really let down his guard.
In my experience with Ty.. you cannot push or rush them into things. When he was ready he came around. But it needed to be on his time.. not mine. It is well worth the wait. I would do it all over again with him. He has turned into an amazing boy and is a hoot to be around. The reward of winning them over with their trust is a treasure.
Deep breath you're doing great it's going to be awhile. Have the BF get on the forums and meet read the threads. What you are going through is normal.
Also by three their personalities are pretty set. My kai only plays with her select friends everyone else shove off. Could be Kiba is that way too.
Once thing I will mention is that just being chill about it all really yields more success. Removing any preconceived notions takes a lot of the pressure off the dog and humans as well. I think Kai possibly pick up on anxiety of expectations to a higher degree than some other breeds. Kai are sensitive IMHO so this means they also can be a bit more selective in picking out who to play with and being cautious with the where and whats of activities until they are really comfortable.
What's important now is finding a way to support your dog so he will begin to explore and open up.
I highly recommend that you try to pick up some activities that engage his nose. Try to get him into some beginning nose work. http://www.nacsw.net
It's not expensive to begin and a decent individual trainer should be able to help you work through some of the exploration issues.
Don't give up, dogs can learn to play and develop play style unique to them, and certainly they can learn new things after age three : )
Good luck to you!
Snf
PS: You will be amazed at how things develop over time. In our case Kai and Shibas get along fabulously. The fun things will build as time goes on once your dog feels secure.
Before the move, he was jumping up on the bed/couch a bit more for snuggles, but of course regressed, but he is starting to get comfortable again.
I definitely want to start incorporating individual play/activities with him so the sniffing game is a great idea. I was also going to start seeing if I can get him to play with some interactive toys by putting cheese and bits of chicken in them so that I am mentally stimulating him as well so he isn't just stationary in a corner all day.
If it has not been practiced in the past some dogs need a little jump start to learn to play with people. You have to build that program in layers.
Something as simple as empty paper towel roll stuffed with some food with paper towel blocking either end to interact with, and then with you. Get creative as long as it's safe.
Over the long haul I know you both will really love your Kai, Bf will have to learn patience and being positive as you journey along the way : )
Snf
All dogs adjust at their own speed. I can tell you of a much worse adjustment. Years ago I had a GSD who I got from our vet. His owner had bred litter after litter of pups. He left them in the basement, never socialized them, never cleaned up after them, barely fed them, never vaccinated them. In this particular litter, they got parvo and out of a litter of 8, only two survived. The guy gave up the dogs because he couldn't afford the vet bills (and thankfully the vet decided to take the pups) I got one of those dogs, and it was a miracle, but he was very steady and not fearful. His sister, however, was terrified of everything, especially men. The first time I met her, in a class, she cowered under her chair and peed when anyone approached her. The woman that took her in had a hard road ahead--she was by far the most fearful dog I've ever seen (it was heartbreaking to see her try to curl her big GSD body into a ball out of fear). But we did meet again, and the pup was nearly a year old. In that time, she had gone from soiling herself every time the woman's husband looked at her, to being able to be in the same room with him. She wouldn't let him touch her, but she wasn't so terrified any more, but it took 8 months. And she loved and worked well with her female handler. The really miraculous thing was that I saw her again a few months later, and while she was still, clearly a fearful dog, she was able to be in a room full of strangers in a class and focus on her handler, and she wasn't quite so terrified of men anymore. My point is that dog was in WAY worse shape, and it took a year probably, but she continued to improve and went to classes, etc.
So you've got a dog who may be fearful and is adjusting, and we all know how hard it is for Kai to adjust. But he's making progress, and he will continue to make progress. And also, the other important thing to remember (more for your bf probably than for you!) is that we have to meet our dogs where they are at. They may never be super playful. They may always be reserved dogs, or somewhat fearful dogs, but we can make progress--we just have to also understand their basic nature. I suspect it's too early to even know what that basic nature is for you boy. He may become more playful. He may not. But he will adjust and be happy.
So Kiba is already starting to show progress!
The other day, I was doing his "forced" interaction which means I close his crate, and the linen closet door (his two hiding safe places). There are still other places he can go, like the side of my couch, under the computer desk, in my bedroom closet etc. But instead he ran around a bit to check out where to go. I just went and sat on the couch. I patted my hand on the couch and he just jumped up on his own. Then he immediately snuggled RIGHT INTO MY LAP! He burrowed his head right into my belly. I wasn't planning on sitting there and snuggling with him. I was trying to do the dishes before the BF got home, but now I was stuck! I couldn't leave Kiba. So I sat there snuggling him through 2 episodes of Sex and The City, before BF came home and he jumped off of me.
I have also started to use his harness for walks because he seems more comfortable with it. He no longer RUSHES out the door when I first open it and no longer cowers as much when I turn in his general direction. His tail has perked up and slowly getting higher to the normal sickle position. He prances on his walks now and isn't pulling. He pays more attention to me and without me telling him to slow down, he will look that I am behind him and he just waits until he is at my side and then walks at my side.
Last night, he actually took food from me on our walk. He LOVES cheese! He freaks out over it, but he has only been talking it from me when he is in his safe places, sometimes. But on our walk, I decided to test it out and he reluctantly would take the small cheese bits from me. I need to cook some chicken (another fav) because I can't just keep giving him cheese. I will make him fat or diabetic or something.
He is coming out of his crate WAY MORE with his tail partially up. This morning when I got out of bed (he comes into the room quickly to see if I am moving) I actually saw his tail in the sickle position for like 2 seconds! I have NEVER seen his tail in the normal spot since I took him.
I think a lot is contributed to the fact, one night I picked him up and sat him on the couch with me while I was watching a movie. I had him placed between me and the cushion because he is less likely to run off, but still left him an escape path, but he decided to stay the whole time and actually fell asleep on my arm as I pet him!!!!!
It literally came out of nowhere. THERE IS HOPE!!!
Keep it up. You will see more and more of his personality come out and pretty soon, it will be like he has always been there.
The true personality you do not see sometimes until months down the road. Now the fun begins : )
Snf