JA and a Shiba coexisting? ... and other JA questions

AerithHojo

Hi All,

So I recently put a deposit on a JA puppy that will arrive mid August. I have an old Shiba girl (she's 10) who doesn't like other dogs much but tolerates them once she gets to know them and has even made some doggy friends. One is a boxer that she is obsessed with. I can't figure out why. Anyway, the JA I'm getting is a boy so there won't be female/female aggression going on, yet I'm still a little concerned about how they're going to get along. There's no way we can have the two meet before the puppy comes because I'm shipping him from very far away and I wouldn't want to put the stress of a long plane ride on my old Shibe. Does anyone have any suggestions for slow introductions so that my Shiba doesn't feel threatened or left out? If anyone has any experience with this, I'd love to hear from you. I'm also worried because I've heard that JA and AA can become dog/people aggressive or indifferent when they become teenagers even if properly socialized. I don't want to have to worry about Kira (my Shiba) when the puppy reaches adulthood. This also concerns me because we tend to have a lot of company over and most of our friends have other dogs as well. I plan to do TONS of socialization with our puppy but I've heard a lot of bad stories from others in my area who have tried to socialize nihon ken but their dogs become reserved and aggressive toward adulthood. Maybe they're just not doing a good enough job? I've also not seen a lot of AA or JA adults playing with other dogs. Not sure if that confirms my earlier worry or just doesn't mean anything. Any insight on that would be great.

I'm also considering starting the JA puppy in agility training right off the bat. I do agility with my shiba and she loves it, but she's getting older and I don't push her like I used to. I need a young, spry agility buddy. Anyone have any JA/AA agility experiences they can share? Thanks for the info!

tim3308

Few weeks back introduced our almost 10 week old m AA to our 6 year old shiba f, half shiba(5) and 7 yr shiba m. The male attacked(very aggressive) the AA after about 15 minutes of the group together in the backyard. Should've done it at a neutral site in hindsight - but still not sure how much that would've changed. We have walked them together since (no issues - m shiba is on a "mission" then), shiba male has since been neutered. He will growl at the AA and show his disdain at times, but have had no attacks (we now get drive by smells of the butt w/ no attack). Kept them around each other but separate for days... so working our way forward.

The good news for you is the youngest female(she's pretty small) went from growling to his best bud in about 2 days. They now romp and romp. The 6 year old f , literally couldn't give a crap since the AA showed up. She just doesn't care. Plays w/ him a little but she is basically non plussed. So w/ the females and the male AA pup, it's been pretty smooth sailing. Maybe the same w/ yours...

Spitzfever

@AerithHojo
I just recently introduced a 1.5 year old shikoku to my 7 month old Finnish lapphund. The first few days were rough since the shikoku would snap at my lapphund. My lappy started losing confidence and couldn't be in the same room with the shikoku without yelping. I spent a LOT of time making their interactions positive. I also did my best to keep the shikoku and lapphund tired with physically demanding outdoor activities. Both of them seemed to tolerate each other more with each hike/jog/walk. I also needed to make sure my lapphund understood that I was there to protect her and my shikoku needed to understand that I was in charge. It took some time but they are now great friends!

Keep the goal realistic because even having them tolerate each other is an accomplishment. In time they may become friends (they may even like each other from the get go) but just focus on getting them to be civil when in the same room. I don't want to make you nervous but I also don't want to tell you that it will be easy! Just be prepared for the worst and aim for the best
Good luck!

shibamistress

I have an AA male who is not puppy tolerant at all, and doesn't like other dogs. I have introduced two new puppies to him in the past couple of years. I just do it super slowly. By super slowly, I mean he does not get access to the puppies for at least 2 months (and that is just because that's how long it takes for him to stop growling at them--it's no set amount of time!). He sees the puppies all the time: the pup is in the crate and he is loose, or he is in his big crate and the puppy is loose, but they do not get free access to each other. When they do, finally, it is very slowly, for 5 minutes, for 10 minutes, etc, all highly supervised. Most of the time he wants to be left alone, and the pups have to learn to leave him alone. He's now good friends with Zora (the AA girl) and Leo (Kai Ken), so it worked quite well.

It has not worked so well with my elder Shiba, Toby, who is 10 and does not tolerate other dogs. He also dislikes puppies, but after my Kai Ken became an adult, they became friends and are now (Toby's only friend!), but he's not so thrilled with the AA girl. My boy, at least, has had a hard time with other dogs and is afraid of them (and reacts with aggression), so I don't expect him to become friends with another dog (but was happy he did!). The thing with Shibas is it can sometimes go bad quickly if the puppy is pushy, and they seem to have long memories! (he doesn't get along with my AA male because he bit him when the AA was a puppy, and neither have forgotten that!)

So I'd say take it incrementally slowly. Don't even introduce them for real at all at first but let them see each other through crates. After they are used to the other dog's presence, you could let them meet very briefly, but it is much better to go really slow and have it work, then rush it. Especially think about the fact that your elder girl is probably not going to enjoy puppy antics, so give her a lot of space and attention, and let her choose how quickly, and how much, she wants to interact.

Good luck!

eta: one thing about reservedness of NK....No it is absolutely NOT about people not doing a good enough job of socializing, which is actually something that drives me crazy. When we say the NK are reserved and Shiba (and Akitas too!) tend to become more intolerant of other dogs, we mean it. It is not about a failure of socialization. It is about the breed. NKs do need a ton of socialization so this tendency doesn't get out of control, but even the best socialization is not going to change the dog's existing temperament, and these are qualities that are an inherent part of the breed.

I took my Shiba everywhere with me, even to work, when he was a puppy, and he was reactive from the day I got him, anyway (he was 7 weeks old!). And while I have an AA from a breeder who is known to produce more friendly and active AAs than usual, she is 11 months old and starting to show typical Akita "interest" in other dogs (and by that I mean her she is hyperinterested in other dogs, and not always in a friendly way). That's just what the breeds are, and obviously, people who want dogs that get along with all other dogs, etc, would be better served not getting an NK, especially not an Akita or Shiba.

AerithHojo

All awesome points and stuff I was planning on doing anyway! So that's good! I also wanted to introduce them at a neutral place like a park before taking the puppy home. That seems to work better with Kira than bringing a strange dog into the house from the get go. Toleration is more the goal than them becoming friends. I don't forsee the two playing together at all, but rather a mutual acceptance, eventually.

@shibamistress
I totally understand that NK are reserved around other dogs and people and I wouldn't want my JA to have to get along with everyone. I just don't want him to suddenly become aggressive late in life since I'm planning on doing agility with him and have friends with other dogs, children etc who come over on a regular basis. I experience this with Kira (my shiba) all the time. She gets snarky at other dogs and generally dislikes them, but she doesn't make a point to go out and attack them and she does really well at agility trials. (She used to lunge at and attack (yes, with blood) all other dogs when we first rescued her from the humane society!!! We had to put in lots of socialization and training there. Now she barely barks at them.) I'm hoping that super socialization and constantly supervising all the things will keep him from getting that way. Having a larger dog act the way my shiba did when we first got her would be a nightmare. I'm hoping I'm a good enough owner that that won't happen!

WrylyBrindle

Your past work with the shiba may help you raise the Akita! The training I have done with my reactive dog has definitely influenced the way I trained the 2 subsequent dogs (positively reinforcing attention, calm responses & focus, having appropriate expectations, keeping everyone's cool, etc.) even though they aren't reactive dogs themselves. They know from puppyhood that (for example) when a dog barks at them as we go by, nothing awful happens- they check in with me and get a tidbit and a smile and we just keep on keepin on.

AerithHojo

Yay! That's what I was hoping to hear.

shibamistress

It will probably be fine if you socialize the dogs a lot! I was just bringing the issue up because people sometimes see reactivity as owner failure (lack of socialization) when it may not be that at all. It could be the breed's natural aloofness, or it could be temperament issue that the dog was born with that even a lot of socialization may not be able to control (but of course, good socialization can make even inherent temperament problems better--even if it can't fix everything. I had a puppy mill Shiba, so I have some experience with not being able to overcome everything the dog was born with).

A JA is kind of an odd choice for agility...but if it's just for fun it should be fine. And I do even know someone who runs an AA in agility as has titled her, so it's not impossible!

AerithHojo

Thanks Shibamistress,

Yeah, the breeder I'm getting him from does agility with her JAs and has a masters/excellent title on her oldest one. I don't know of anyone around here that does it though. My trainer is annoyed that I'm not getting a bordercollie or sheltie or something but I think those dogs are boring and annoying. haha. I like the challenge of working a northern breed.

kaioshin93

By any chance, are you adopting your JA from Karen?

tim3308

My trainer is annoyed that I'm not getting a bordercollie or sheltie or something but I think those dogs are boring and annoying. haha. I like the challenge of working a northern breed.

What a cliche! Tell he/she that tire is weeelllllll worn. You rock that you enjoy the "off road". Go Spitz!

rikumom

We added a female JA puppy to our home when our dog aggressive male shiba was 11 years old. For us the key success criteria was knowing our shiba doesn't care for other dog's company, we picked the most submissive puppy from the litter of JA. I'd be happy to share my experience via PM with you.

I do recommend against doing agility w/ your JA puppy until he's 2+years. Our Sirius pup class instructor recommended we only do obedience and nose work until the joints are fully developed. Same thing goes w/ long distance running with JA. Male JA mature slower than females. Not to put a damper on your need for a spry agility buddy but nose work or tracking can be quite fun.

mdokic

Oh, @shibamistress ...nothing hurts me more than when people ask if I've ever socialized Kona if they hear her growl. I've gotten better at not taking it personally, but I give up explaining myself.. *sigh*

WrylyBrindle

@mdokic Michelle- that sucks, and it does hurt terribly. People know nothing/or just enough to be dangerous, never consider that life is a work in progress, and have big intrusive mouths. Kona obviously does lots of social things really well. Remember how nice it is to go to NK meetups where everyone already knows our dogs wear their hearts on their sleeves!

mdokic

It is nice when everyone understands the breeds we have and "gets" it. It's a nice community...I wish this country wasn't so darn big so we could see more of everyone more often!

AerithHojo

@Rikumom, I wasn't planning on competing until he was about 2, but I did want to do some agility work with him for practice. Nose work sounds fun. Knowing my Shiba though, those two will get into a lot of cabinets with their noses if I train them for that. -.-()

rikumom

So when is "he" showing up? :-)

laurenmarie

I had a similar issue. We brought a Hokkaido pup home to our 3 yr old Shiba.

First thing is to bring them to first meet outside the home and walk them together around the neighborhood.

It took 8 months for the Shiba to stop attacking the puppy, we involved a very skilled trainer and we had to tether them near each other in the same room but they could not reach each other. But always in the same room. This works because it desensitizes the Shiba and he got used to the puppy. But it's takes some patience!

I can happily say that they are best buddies now. The Hokkaido is the only dog our Shiba will accept.