Investing in Shikoku

So I've been doing my lurking thing, and I was going through a lot of the discussions about the Shikoku bloodline and its overall decline. From what I understand, there are dropping numbers in Japan due to cultural issues and such, while there is a push for more bloodlines everywhere else outside of there.

Assuming the biggest barriers to new bloodlines (besides communication and such) is price, I was wondering how feasible it would be to "invest" in a new bloodline. According to Shigeru's JDE website, an import from Japan with his help can run from $3500, while I've heard of almost $5000. From what I gathered, Shikoku pups from a breeder here in the states is usually around $2000.

Instead of paying $2000 upfront for a potential puppy, what if there was an option for some of the more hardcore dedicated folks to pledge $3000 for the goal of importing a new dog. Have a minimum of say 3 pledges in order to get the ball rolling and have the new bloodline imported. Once imported and the dog is bred, the three pledges shoot up to the top of the waitlist and get first dibs on one pup for free (ideally; I'm not sure of the costs associated with breeding a litter... Breeders help me out! Maybe at a very reduced price?).

Maybe to incentivize things a little more, the pledges get to officially name the first set of pups or something. I don't know. But I guess what I'm trying to get at is instead of just paying for a pup, there are bound to be some people willing to pay a little more in an attempt to bring diversity to the existing bloodlines in the States. It's tough to have one dedicated individual fork out $5000 on their own, but if the costs were somehow subsidized its only a matter of waiting to find someone willing to export. And while it may inconvenience a few people waiting in line for a puppy, the benefits of having new bloodlines available should eventually increase the number of breedings.

TL;DR: crowdfund for new imports.

...
Alright, I'm prepared for you all to tear this apart lol.

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Comments

  • Hmmm....

    It's a little bit more complicated than just getting the money and importing a dog. Would you import an adult or a promising puppy? Do you import one dog or more? What if you import and the health checks dont check out well for the dog? If you get a puppy you have at least an 18 month wait until breeding to be sure of the quality of the hips. What do you do after you've taken the money other people gave you in exchange for a puppy from the first litter you get from this dog, only to find out that you can't breed the dog?

    Do you ask for more money? Do you breed anyway? Do you ask them to wait another 2 years? If I could afford it then I would do it, but if I was that dedicated (to hand someone else 3,000 to import a dog) then I would probably just import the dog myself rather than going through someone else.

    Just my two cents. I'm no breeding expert but I know there's a lot more to it and nothing ever goes as planned. I'm interested in what others have to say about it though....
  • Have you looked into the NASC? They do things like that (or try to) www.shikokuclub.org
  • Dogs are being imported, but due to a lack of health testing in japan, many imports get culled from the breeding program before they reach maturity.
  • We talked about doing that in NASC but that brought about a lot of complications and we wanted to keep preservation activities simple. Give me the day and I'll write a post about our findings later this evening.
  • Dragonfly, you raise a lot of good questions. I agree that importing young Shikoku brings about a lot of complications, including wait time/possibility that it won't be fit for breeding. Is it not common to import mature Shikoku? That way it's clear before hand whether or not they have genetic defects like HD.

    I ran into the NASC website a while back but I didn't realize they were taking initiatives like this. After reading it, it seems like they've taken a similar approach and made it work through auctions and such. I'm glad that they've had their first successful import! Crimson, I look forward to hearing more about your findings.
  • The biggest barrier to importing is health. Dogs in Japan are not tested like here, unless you get a pup from Shigeru. It's not that better dogs cost more, it's that they may not exist anymore.

    There are a few really good threads on Shikoku health. Here's one which touches on most of the issues with imports. Link is a jump to a relevant post from Shigeru.
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/168729#Comment_168729
  • And try as I might, the first Shikoku litter born at my kennel has produced a cryptorchid male with one bad hip.

    I'm a huge proponent of exporting adult dogs. With puppies, you're taking on a huge amount of risk. It is possible to get dogs tested here before sending them over, though most people who import don't bother for some reason.

    The only problem with importing adult Shikoku is that bringing an adult dog that has been kenneled singly its entire life, means that unless you have a kennel set up, you're probably going to have problems. My dogs divide their time indoors and kenneled, and without those kennels, managing my Shikoku would be impossible.
  • Importing an adult of any breed is no guarantee that the dog is free of "genetic defects like HD." It is not unheard of for a dog to look like it has great structure and movement yet cannot pass OFA or vice versa. Besides, since you can't lay hands on the dog and probably wont get videos of it moving, its unlikely you could even have a visual assessment that it has good hips. Without actual testing, it is impossible to know.

    With Japanese Akitas, the price difference between a puppy and an adult can be between 3x and 10x more expensive. Not sure if the true is same in Shikoku, but its certainly not as simple as deciding to get an adult instead of a puppy - there will be more cost. Even if the only extra cost is shipping, it can still be a significant weight difference and price between an adult and a pup.
    It is possible to get dogs tested here before sending them over, though most people who import don't bother for some reason.
    Really? I tried to insist when I was looking for an adult. I had a translator familiar with the culture and friends with the breeders. He warned me that if I asked for testing to be done, they wouldn't sell to me. And there was a couple he wouldn't even ask, because he thought that doing so would risk his own relationship with them. He said its extremely offensive. One of the people he did ask on my behalf, sold the dog out from under me to China while we were in negotiation.
  • @PoetikDragon Regarding shipping: since I fly with dogs I ship (at least to Europe, not so much to the US) the size of the dog usually makes little difference in the cost. The difference is around 100 USD.
    Regarding testing: It depends who you are dealing with I guess, and your relationship with them. I've never had a problem with any kennels I deal with in asking for testing to be done. It's usually just a matter of who will foot the bill (since if it doesn't pass the tests you won't be buying the dog, but tests are not something the kennel would have done). Also, a lot of the older gentlemen hardly ever go to the vet, so taking a grown dog there and getting x-rays done that they and their vet have never done is usually not a very inviting prospect for them.
  • Curious on what happened with Suki, the adult female that was imported?
  • Sorry I didn't get around to posting last night but to get right to it, the adult female NASC imported last November, Suki, was diagnosed with heartworm. Even though the Japanese breeder was giving heartworm preventative, we didn't find out she was infected until one of the NASC breeders (Peggy of O'Ikon Kennels) took her in for a preliminary check. So, rather than being able to allow her to contribute to the North American bloodlines immediately, she is essentially recuperating for at least a year due to the heartworm treatment.

    As @PoetikDragon said, culturally it can be considered insulting to request the Japanese breeder do a hip x-ray and/or heartworm check prior to buying the adult (unless, maybe, you're @TheWalrus). And while Suki was proven to have whelped a litter in the past, an attempted breeding prior to importing her failed.
  • Sorry if I'm necro-ing an old post, but I still can't help but wonder if crowdfunding, say expanding past this community even and trying out something like Kickstarter, might not be a really good way to help out the endeavor. I honestly don't know much about the process or how it works, but if a guy can get people to give him 65,000 USD to make some potato salad, and if there are hundreds and thousands of Japanophiles and dog lovers around the world, we could get people to do microdonations to get this project really moving?
  • edited July 2014
    I think they were just saying its a longshot of an investment considering there's no guarentee the pup will pass for breeding quality. If there was proof, like X-rays and such, that the parents had good hips, knees, ect then I could see it being worth the risk but with out all of that, it may be hard finding funds. What if the dog ends up unfit to breed? Will there be a refund or do you try to raise the money again for another one? Don't get me wrong, I think getting together to help bring in fresh bloodlines is an excellent idea but importing is a huge crap shoot.. You could possible end up culling 3-4 dogs before you finically get one suitable
  • Not only that, but who the dog goes to? Who decides who the dog will be bred to and who will care for and/or own the dog. Where might future offspring go if the dog has a successful litter? Which registry (CKC vs UKC vs FCI) to register the dog with? Selfish acts like making a potato salad are considerably less complex than outlining the responsibility for the preservation of a breed. Not to say it can't be done, but honestly, no one's stepped up to answer for all those questions.
  • edited July 2014
    I definitely agree that there is a much greater risk and complication to this than the average crowdfunded project, for all the reasons you both bring up. I just seem to remember some people who already have some breeding dogs and plans to expand their numbers mentioning that it is the expense side hampering them from pursuing expansion; if they had kennel space and a desire to do this that would be the logical place. Maybe the thing to do would be to try importing adults instead of puppies, despite the increased costs, as then there would be a better chance of 'tried-and-true?' I feel like Shigeru mentioned that at least some of the breeders are becoming more willing to do the testing so long as it is the importer taking responsibility for the cost (although I could be remembering wrong). If that were the case, then maybe it would be more possible. Edit: or maybe I'm just thinking of the general health check that has to be done before the dog can be imported.

    The one thing I feel qualified to address about this would be refunds. I don't know about other services, but at least with kickstarter, backers are "supporting projects to help them come to life, not to profit financially." If the funding goal and the project goal is specifically stated to bring x dogs to America, then as long as the dogs that, to the best of the project creator's knowledge meeting the breedable criteria are imported, then they've satisfied the terms of what they've set out to do and no one should feel entitled to a "refund." Transparency both about the project's very real risks and about how these risks might be minimized and what *has* been accomplished would be helpful. Of course the greater goal is to help the gene pool, but I do think the promise of puppies would be a mistake, since there's no way of knowing before the dogs could be tested and examined state-side how things might be (and of course, there's still no knowing about how the pups might turn out--just thinking of the health issues that have cropped up with the neurological disorder and hip dysplasia)...

    You make a valuable point that no one has stepped up to say they'd like to take point or try to solve the hard questions, though. I guess I hoped that maybe it was a matter of the post going unseen by someone in a position to consider it as a viable option for expanding their kennel, or maybe even creating a separate community entity in which the dogs are seen as co-owned, as opposed to people reading the suggestion but feeling the odds were not good. That was probably very naive of me though. Still, if something like this were to get rolling, I would be happy to donate at least some amount to the project without expecting anything in return. I'd just like to see the breed better off than it is now.
  • edited July 2014
    I could see this working between two maybe 3 people doing a co-ownership. I've been playing around with the idea of importing a male Kai to add some fresh blood here in the states and I've spoken to a couple people who say they would be willing to help with the costs. There are people who would be willing to help the cause but i would keep it between only a couple people and people that you feel confident going "into business with". Also have a plan and a contract between you that will cover everything from who the dog lives with, who has the breeding rights, who pays for medical bills, ect.
  • Isn't this why NASC was started to address this... Also no... Kick starter isn't the way to go about it. I feel that would be disastrous. Also 65000 ? If you get that kind of money why not pay for a vet and a translator and you all go to japan and go to the breeders and select the healthy dogs yourselves?

    It seems like a slow process but I think the current breeders are making great progress on producing healthier dogs.

    What is NASC actively doing? Maybe we all could help?
  • With that kind of money, you definitely could go to Japan oneself to pick. Heck, with half that. (Which is what would be left after Uncle Sam took his cut, maybe a little less than that.) I'm not sure what NASC is, it's the first I've heard of it.
  • @Ilium, check post #3 in this thread. There is a link to the website
  • North American Shikoku Club (NASC) is shikokuclub.org. To be honest, NASC is at its infancy of grass roots efforts. The importation of a Shikoku adult female bled the funds dry as she was imported and found to have heartworm. A lot of our donations have gone to treating her after she was imported. If you're interested in donating for her care, she is currently in the care of Peggy of O'Ikon kennels (shikokudog.com). We've tried a few fundraisers here and there (like the NASC calendar) but nothing substantially involved. The one thing we're trying to establish right now is to get the Shikoku breed registered in the AKC as Foundation Stock Service (AKC-FSS). It's slow going as there are many things to consider regarding that, but ultimately we feel it'll be one of the biggest steps in the breed gaining traction in the U.S.

    Jesse
  • Ah! Okay, yes, I remember seeing that website months and months ago. To be honest, because of the slowness of updates I hadn't really been keeping up with it, and I had no idea that the dog in question that had been imported was also the same one that ended up with heartworm. :( Poor thing! And what a setback for the organization... I'll have to wait for payday, but I think I can spare some money to help donate for treatment.

    What all is involved with getting the breed registered with the AKC? (Or is there a place I can read about that?) It definitely seems like it's an important step to having a bigger presence.
  • Just a point to take note of. Unless you are very, very close with your breeder, they are not going to let you "pick" the dog you want. You might be given a choice but it will most likely not be the pick of the litter as they will keep that for their own kennel.
  • Apologies; I wasn't trying to imply that just because one had the money you'd just have the right to pick any dog wanted. I meant more that more likely you might have a better choice and the chance to evaluate / request / choose from whichever dog(s) they were willing to offer, but perhaps even that was arrogant.
  • Glad to see this sparked some more discussion.

    Ilium, you and me are thinking pretty similarly. I see now though that between health issues and the kenneled vs non kenneled situation, there are a lot of things to be considered. But I guess with the idea of crowdsourcing, I meant it to be more of tackling the issue of money. I can imagine how tough it can be for a kennel to pay for an import when breeders don't profit. I wanted to emphasize how crowdsourcing could maybe be a way to help alleviate that.

    @CrimsonO2, NASC is a non-profit correct? Have you looked into corporate matching gift programs? With a few key players who have access to that sort of thing you could really generate momentum, especially if coupled with pledge drives (ex: If someone donates $100 I will match their donation, up to $500 dollars). There are lots of members who can donate in small amounts. When knowing that if their small amount will help achieve a more smaller, tangible goal, there is a little more incentive to donate. Just a thought; I'm going off of past experiences with my race team and how we went about fundraising through our alumni base. We were a much smaller group but more tightly knit, whereas this project appeals a much larger audience but with less connection between members.

    It's clear the road to preservation of Shikoku is going to be a long journey, but I figure if we can tackle each issue (cost, health, breeding) one by one then we can make some significant progress.
  • It's clear the road to preservation of Shikoku is going to be a long journey, but I figure if we can tackle each issue (cost, health, breeding) one by one then we can make some significant progress.

    They need you on the team... Great initiative!!!
  • I was contemplating the same thing as @Agilus original post re: co-owning/help importing a puppy.

    In the end, it worked out and I ended up importing one from Denmark. Now, Takeo just turned one and I'm wondering if he would be a suitable Stud maybe next year. Part of me feels it would be a 'waste' to just neuter him, as he brings new blood lines to North America... Do i speak to each individual breeder to gauge interest? NASC?
    I would need full guidance, and I would support accompanying/shipping/driving pending his results are clear.
  • @GrayJJ, it's also not just a matter of stud for the sake of bloodlines, it's also registration FCI/AKC/NIPPO, etc. Have you registered your dog in Shikoku-pedigree.com? Technically he's a 1st generation offspring of the original imports so you can now begin to monitor for hip and elbow health for that particular line of dogs.

    Jesse
  • @GrayJJ, I saw Takeo's pedigree on shikoku-pedigree.com
    http://www.shikoku-pedigree.com/details.php?id=63462

    I'm no expert, but his lineage goes back to dogs from North American kennels Akashima and O'Ikon.

    Looks like he's also TK's ( @Crispy) great-nephew! :)
  • edited July 2014
    @GrayJJ @zandrame the current breeding pair at Kasatori Sou were both imported from Izumo Yano Sou, which is where most of the dogs that are overseas today (including most of the foundation stock in Europe and NA) are from.
  • Haha, @zandrame, TK is related to 75% of the Shikoku on here, I think. It's probably because, as @TheWalrus mentioned, he came from Yano-san's line and most European/US dogs can be traced back there.
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