Karelian Bear Dog
  • DragonflyDragonfly
    Posts: 388
    Has anyone here ever had any experience with KBD's or ever met one? The bf has decided that he wants either a Border Collie or a KBD. Not both, just one or the other. And not anytime soon but probably in the next 2 years. I know for sure we'll end up with another shikoku (whether he likes it or not). He's been into the KBD for years now.

    I'm working on arranging a meeting with a breeder of KBD's in NJ. I feel like after we meet one we'll be able to decide for sure. They seem to be somewhat similar to the shikoku temperament wise but you never know. Its always good to hear personal experiences and opinions.
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2082
    I'd go with the Karelian.
    There is somebody here who has some, I can't remember who though... Check out http://www.laikaforum.org/forum/ I believe there are a few Karelian owners on there.
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  • cdenneycdenney
    Posts: 961
    I've met 2 kbd and really liked them. Border collies are just neurotic sometimes.
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  • cdenneycdenney
    Posts: 961
    Check out English shepherds, they might be a nice in between in temperaments
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  • I believe that @kevin has one. They came to NIPPO last year. Their KBD Tuula was a great dog and super pretty. From the little that I interacted, the temperament was nice, and very balanced.
  • DragonflyDragonfly
    Posts: 388
    I want the Karelian over the BC. But sean wants a super smart dog that can be given a 'job'. Something very trainable. Itd be nice to talk to some people who have trained KBD's before and can give some insight on they're potential.

    Kiyoshi is very smart, but he's also very stubborn and hard headed. I think sean wants more of a 'people pleaser' dog. I like the challenge though..and even a bc will throw you some challenges. But I also think the KBD has good potential.

    Thanks for the link @Losech. I'm gonna check out the English Shepherd @cdenney
    I'll have to see if I can reach @kevin about his KBD, thanks @violet_in_seville
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    I've met Kevin's KBD and a few others. I've done a good bit of research on the breed but ended up going with West Siberian Laika instead. I wasn't thrilled with any of the KBD breeder I met in America.
  • cdenneycdenney
    Posts: 961
    @dragonfly I've met many English shepherds from different lines,l and the lines are loose (additionally they are trying hard to stay out of a kc radar. A good family friend is a breeder and their dogs are great working dogs but not as guardian like as some of the lines out of the south and south west.

    I like their confirmation alot they are wider and as tall as BCs but look better imo, coats come in great colors, tris and sable and white being my favorite. I'll see if I can find pics of her dogs.
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    Post edited by cdenney at 2014-05-08 16:04:16
  • DragonflyDragonfly
    Posts: 388
    @BradA1878, What turned you off about the breeders here? The woman I want to go visit has an import from spain and one from finland. Their litter is due end of this month and she also has 2 other litters right now as well. Different lines.

    The bf has done a lot of research about the breed but when it comes to all the technical stuff like researching breeders, lines, and finding the right dog that all falls on me.

    Thanks for the info @cdenney. I like the look of the English Shepherd better than the BC.
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    @Dragonfly - I was looking for a pup from a kennel/breeder who worked their dogs. I found very few, most are show breeders, and the few that did work their dogs were completely out of touch on modern day behavior and training techniques. Also many of the breeders who worked their dogs liked to promote the breed's hyper and not give any real valuable information on their dog's behavior and workability.

    If you want a working dog, I'd get an REL before I'd buy a KBD from a breeder in the states.

    Have you visited the Laika Forum?
    http://www.laikaforum.org/forum/
  • DragonflyDragonfly
    Posts: 388
    @BradA1878

    I talked to the breeder last night for almost 2 hours about her dogs history and lines. She doesn't work any of her dogs, not even any showing. That was a bit disappointing to hear. She has one dog that comes from working lines and has produced pups with good drive and instinct that are being worked. She said pups from that line have gone to Yellowstone and up into Canada. She also has another line that produces more mellow and outgoing pups, better for an everyday family type dog. And the last in the import line from Finland and Spain. She said she also has 2 young females from Denmark who she's considering showing but doesn't quite have the time.

    Do you know of any good REL breeders in the states?
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    @Dragonfly - I'd be very hesitant to purchase any dog from a breeding where a show dogs is mated to a working dog. I've never seen this produce a good working dog. The pups usually have some of the qualities of a working dog but other qualities are left out. A working dog is a working dog because of the whole package.

    Good hunting/working dogs come from generations and generations of selecting for traits that make them good hunters/workers. It's kinda silly for a breeder to think they can simply take a dog from a working lines, breed him to a show dog (who's not been subject to the selection process of a working dog), and still produce a hunting/working dog.

    Do you guys plan to work your KBD? If not, I'd go for her "mellow and outgoing line"... Assuming she knows what she's talking about.

    But, I have to ask, if she doesn't work her dogs, how does she really know which line would produce working dogs?

    As far as I know there are no REL breeders in the USA. There are REL/KBD breeders (they mix the two), but not pure REL. You'd have to import one, which I could probably help you with if you like.

    The only KBD breeder I'd purchase from in the US is Susan Braden in Alaska. Her kennel name is Bearunoff Kennels, but I am not sure she's still breeding KBDs. I think she's focused on Norrbottenspets now. She and I don't talk anymore, so that's all the info I have.

    http://www.bearunoffkennels.com/
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    I would consider getting one direct from Finland or Sweden. Seriously.

    Actually, I would look into Swedish dogs because there are more opportunities for them to hunt boars and bears. Most of the Finnish lines are moose-dogs, and there is a huge problem with too many moose-dogs and not enough work for them.

    I would also recommend going to Finland or Sweden and befriending people at hunting trials. That's how some of the hunters have been getting their dogs lately. American hunters are not too happy about how some of the show-breeders are "supplying" dogs without proving their dogs can hunt.

    Also, if you are doing e-mail correspondence with the national breed club, they will redirect you to one of the show-breeders in North America. So, it's best to show up in person to show you are serious about hunting with Karelians.

    Skip the formality and ask when the events will be held. Don't even bother asking how to import or who to import from, otherwise they will just refer you to one of the show-breeders in the States or Canada. Show up and make hunting friends. If you make real-life friends, they will export their dogs to you.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-05-09 23:07:52
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    Great suggestions @souggy.
  • omgtainomgtain
    Posts: 240
    I am very, very, very into KBDs. And I WILL have one, but not from any of the breeders in the US.
    I've also talked to http://www.bearunoffkennels.com/, they're very knowledgeable and upfront about the breed. But that was 5+ years ago, the website looks the same except with the addition of the Norrbottenspets!

    I've contacted a few of the breeders here in WA.. and they're all.. well they give off a weird feel. Very old school and 'dominate' revolving. Pump puppies out like no tomorrow. I think a few of them are stuck with a litter or two who are over a year old. They don't test hips or work their dogs.

    When I get a KBD I think I am going to go to: http://www.lafortea.com/
    They're very nice and I like what they do for the breed. :)
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    Tain, Nare the GSD/Husky, and Tavi the Kaigirl!
  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 3221
    I can speak to the English Shepherd a little- my friend Pam has an ES. She used to have shelties, but chose the English shepherd as a bigger, less high strung, still herding type (attentive, looks to me, likes 'work' no matter what it is) AP farm dog. She lives in the suburbs but is a very active soccer coach for elite girls' teams spring and fall seasons and conducts summer camps and trainings, and she brings Paxton to soccer practice and sends her out to shag balls and do other soccer practice related finding and bringing and directing. Pax loves to work with Pam, and doesn't care what the work is. Pax is an athletic, friendly, smart dog that sticks with the group and in the fields- she is a great coach's dog. She also likes all kinds of fetch and frisbee- she's really fun! She is social enough to be welcome everywhere without Pam having to be 100% on Dog Time everywhere, and has a nice work/relaxability balance. photo dogofmystery_zpsb2bb7926.jpg
    Post edited by WrylyBrindle at 2014-05-10 09:09:54
  • cdenneycdenney
    Posts: 961
    @shikoku this is my friend's site. http://www.creekviewfarmenglishshepherds.com/index.htm i don't know if it has been updated lately but I grew up knowing her dogs breezie and bergie (they are littermates--bergie is lower key and wider built than breezy who wants to work more, is thinner and has a little longer coat IMO), their mom Ellie, and the start of her line Sloane. Their banner at the top is Sage who they never bred--he was very cool but a more guardian like, out of a big farm in TX, they didn't have many of their dogs going to large farm situations like that and didn't want those traits to pass on. Probably my favorite of the colors.
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    Post edited by cdenney at 2014-05-10 11:46:17
  • DragonflyDragonfly
    Posts: 388
    Thanks for the link @cdenney

    @souggy@BradA1878, thanks for the advice!

    @omgtain, the male from this kennel is from De La Forte.

    Unfortunatley I think he's decided to go with a Border Collie...of all things. I told him if he could teach it to do the laundry and pick up around the house then it'd agree the BC was a better pick. Although I'd also be the main caretaker so if he gets one ridiculously high energy crazy dog then I'll have to manage it...funny how Kiyoshi is 'his' dog until it comes time to take him out LOL

    He seems to think if he gets a BC he'll have one naturally genuis dog that can do everything he asks. He's never raised a dog before and even though he's around kiyoshi I do the brunt of all the training and everyday stuff that goes into having a dog. You'll only get out what you put in, and if he doesn't put in enough time and effort into a BC it'll be a disaster. He's going into the BC idea with such high expectations I forsee extreme frustration when he realizes it takes more time and the dog might not catch on in the 5 minutes he thinks it'll take to teach the dog something because that's what he saw on youtube. It is what it is though.

    He wants a dog from Chasers line, Flint Hill Farm in SC I believe. Although I have no information other than 'that's the guy that bred Chaser, we need a pup from him'

    Hopefully I can 'train' the bf to be more dog savy and realistic in his approach before the time comes when he thinks he's ready for the BC.

    I'd be more interested in training the KBD than I would the BC, not for working though. SO I suppose it makes sense not to go with the KBD but I still wouldn't have picked a BC.
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • omgtainomgtain
    Posts: 240
    I'd try telling him that all dogs are very trainable, with the right motivation. They have desire to work, you just need to direct it, control it, and more importantly.. have fun.
    All the youtube videos are with dogs who already know the trick or have pieces and sessions cut out to make the video shorter (otherwise you'd be looking at 5 minutes a day over 5+ days, I don't want to watch a video that long).

    Border Collies are still pretty cool. Be careful about what breeder you go to.. they tend to be at one extreme or the other.

    Same goes with English Shepherds. They're very much one of those breeds thats still being fleshed out here in the US. If you're interested, one of my friends has one and has compiled a list of resources.
    http://codenamefarmcollie.blogspot.com/p/english-shepherds-101_12.html
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    Tain, Nare the GSD/Husky, and Tavi the Kaigirl!
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1924
    I may be a little biased here :) but I find that Border Collies can be fun to train. At least, the creative aspect of finding out all the things I can teach mine is rewarding (and sometimes challenging). From my personal experience though, my BC is pretty handler soft and shuts down with rough handling or even if someone were to speak in a stern voice to her.

    And as a bit of personal preference, I'm not all that fond of most show type Border Collies. I prefer sport bred or working bred lines usually.

    But some of the other breeds mentioned seem pretty interesting, too.
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
  • ShikokuShikoku
    Posts: 264
    Lol at you doing all the work. I didn't think you would choose a border collie lol . But i think it would get along better with "the beast" vs a kbd, no? Although the kbd seems less common and hardier. I want to see a kbd in person now, although I am getting my third soon. Just haven't decided on a male or female.... Thinking more male however, just gotta watch him and Athena ...

    -------------------
    Location:MD/VA/DC. Pets: Athena- Shikoku and Hades- Shiba Inu
  • DragonflyDragonfly
    Posts: 388
    @omgtain, thanks for the link, it has a lot of good information.

    @Shikoku, I'm excited your getting another :) If your going to the NJ barn hunt maybe we could all stop and see the KBD's. If @cdenney wants to as well.

    Nothing agains border collies, it's just not what I would have picked. He wants to get a male and of course it would stay intact. So we'd have 2 intact males which just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen if you ask me. I'm wondering if we raise the pup with kiyoshi if he'll still become territorial and aggressive towards the male or if he'd be more accepting as long as they worked out their dominance.
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • cdenneycdenney
    Posts: 961
    @Shikoku, @dragonfly I'm game.
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  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1822
    I still haven't been to a barnhunt...

    (So off topic.)
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
    Post edited by Crispy at 2014-05-11 00:08:08
  • mdokicmdokic
    Posts: 1020
    Awe I love border collies! Yes very high energy, need lots of mental stimulation. But I agree with @omgtain, I strongly feel all dogs are trainable, key thing she said being "with the right motivation". You'll know it's the right motivation when they keep looking to you for what comes next! :D

    I love watching working border collies do their thing. Awesome, brilliant dogs with CRAZY speed and energy lol!

    Can't speak to the male dominance thing...only experience with two females (one recently spayed), but may take some managing, but I think it can be managed :)
    Michelle, with Kai girls Kona and Kimber
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  • cdenneycdenney
    Posts: 961
    @crispy Jersey the 28th and beth is coming down!
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  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2082
    If you want a highly energetic smart dog, get a Hokkaido. I have yet to meet a Border Collie that matches Katana's level of insanity.

    @Dragonfly I have two intact males, one neutered male. Guess who causes all the problems? The guy without balls. It could be that my intact guys are young, and the balless fellow is an allaround ass. Having testicles does not automatically mean males won't get along. I know plenty of people with several intact males of various ages who have no issues at all.
    I base my opinion on two dogs getting along from their personalities, not on them having balls. Conker is an asshole, simple as that. Him having no balls proves that a male can still be a jerk when neutered.
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  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1822
    I agree with @losech. My Malamute is still a jerk without his balls! :D He had them for a while, then had them taken away... no change. (Not that I was expecting a change.)

    I think that myth came about because trainers used to (and still do) tell people to neuter their aggressive dogs... not because neutering changes the personality, but because some components of aggression are genetic.

    @cdenney - I'll have to see my schedule by then. I'm getting hours at a new job, but I should have weekends off... my sister's birthday is also that weekend so... igh. I'd like to do it with my brother's dog or with Nami. I don't think TK is ready. (I don't think I'm ready for TK to be ready.)
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • ShikokuShikoku
    Posts: 264
    @omgtain, thanks for the link, it has a lot of good information.

    @Shikoku, I'm excited your getting another :) If your going to the NJ barn hunt maybe we could all stop and see the KBD's. If @cdenney wants to as well.

    Nothing agains border collies, it's just not what I would have picked. He wants to get a male and of course it would stay intact. So we'd have 2 intact males which just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen if you ask me. I'm wondering if we raise the pup with kiyoshi if he'll still become territorial and aggressive towards the male or if he'd be more accepting as long as they worked out their dominance.



    I'm down. A pit stop sounds fun.

    About two intact males, ill just echo what was said above. it's really the dogs personalities, IME once dogs work out the hierarchy they tend to become very protective of one another. So my new issue is this bad ass shikoku girl starting fights with dogs and hades coming in to defend her. All it takes is for Athena to do the slightest growl and hades becomes a mad man.

    -------------------
    Location:MD/VA/DC. Pets: Athena- Shikoku and Hades- Shiba Inu
  • MirkaMMirkaM
    Posts: 1248
    If you need help importing KBD from Finland from hunting lines, I'm more than happy to help you.
    Kai will lay down its life to protect its master.
    photo banneri_zpsc6e1d74e.jpg
    Kennel Gekkoo No: http://gekkoonoen.webs.com/index.htm

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