Little limp...or big problem? *UPDATE*
  • Over the weekend kiyoshi somehow ended up hurting his shoulder. At first we though it was from when he tripped himself up and fell off the couch saturday night. He was fine sunday when we first got to the dp to meet @Shikoku but after about 15mins he started limping. We thought maybe it was just the night before catching up with him but were worried. We took him home and he seemed a little better. Monday morning he was stiff and limpy so I tried ice and rest,he was the same yesterday so this morning we went to the vet. It obviously wasn't broken and the vet felt him over. He didn't show any kind of discomfort until he got to his shoulder and even then it was only slight. It just didn't add up. He was limping waaaay worse than the pain seemed to be. And he was holding his paw up as though there was pain in his foot not just his shoulder.He checked the rest of his body and got nothing, there were no foreign bodies in his paw, no cracks or anything. Its his front left shoulder btw.

    He prescribed him an anti inflammatory and said he'd like to give it a bit more time instead of jumping on xrays. He didn't appear to be in much pain, despite his obviously bad limp. I agreed. He said if we didn't see improvements by friday then to bring him back for xrays. He also said that if he improved on the meds but appeared to relapse then it very well might be Panosteitis. He said that sometimes it can develop from a diet with too much protein and growing too fast. Im very guilty of feeding him protein, if its too much...idk. I've never held kiyoshi back on his food because he NEVER appeared to eat too much or exceed his fill. He's always been a skimpy eater, but this past month its been really bad...so the real amount of protein he gets everyday can't possibly be too much. He hardly eats as it is! He's stayed at about 28-30lbs for the past month although I can tell that he's grown longer and taller. Now I'm worried I did this to him :(( I just don't know what to do with him anymore...

    I guess only time will tell. I want to do what's best for him, no matter what it is. I was up all night worrying over him and making sure he was comfortable while he slept. I woke up sick with worry. I hoped the vet would have a more clear answer to ease my mind but if anything I'm even more worried for him. I just hate to see him hurt :(

    Any thoughts in the matter? Suggestions or ideas?


    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
    Post edited by Dragonfly at 2014-02-07 12:54:23
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 503
    Oh no! I'm sorry this has come up. I don't have any advice, but other Shikoku owners can probably respond.

    Pano has been reported a few times before, even recently
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/168474#Comment_168474

    And then there is the mysterious Shikoku leg pain
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5469/shikoku-health-leg-pain/p1
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/137746#Comment_137746
  • ShikokuShikoku
    Posts: 264
    @dragonfly - my sympathies go out to you. I understand how it can be to have a baby that seems ill and no real idea on what's going on or how to fix it. I'm dealing with something similar with my shiba.

    I want to stress that YOU remain Calm. You don't want your dog to sense that you are worried or scared etc. He will sense that and become more uneasy. Until there is an official illness and prognosis determined there is nothing you can do but wait, and help ease his pain mentally. Keep him happy and his tail wagging ( non exerting games etc) . Since we're dealing with a rare breed we don't know all the potential problems. Even the breeders are still learning.

    As far as feeding, I know there is a big push for raw, but until you have the portions correct, you may want to consider either premade raw. Or kibble. Just in case there is a protein surplus issue.

    -------------------
    Location:MD/VA/DC. Pets: Athena- Shikoku and Hades- Shiba Inu
  • ShikokuShikoku
    Posts: 264
    Oh and I know vet bills are costly. I just paid 800 for my pups X-rays. Sheesh! Pm me or let us know if we can do anything to help you guys.

    -------------------
    Location:MD/VA/DC. Pets: Athena- Shikoku and Hades- Shiba Inu
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 2205
    Is he putting any pressure on his leg? First thoughts that came to mind based on symptoms:

    Sprained leg: Let him rest and not jump around so much for 2-3 days. Carry him up and down stairs for the time being so as not to put too much strain. Do some t-touch exercises to massage that area of his leg.

    Migrated chip causing discomfort maybe?: When I had Kurama scanned his chip was more over his left shoulder blade than dead center towards the back of his neck. My vet pointed out to me that it shouldn't be a problem and that I should be aware that some shelters may miss it in a scan should he get lost because the chip has moved so far over.

    Some others people have mentioned are growing pains.

    Jesse
    Jesse Pelayo

  • @zandram - Thanks for the links..I wish there were more detailed info/records!

    @Shikoku - That's a good point. When he looks at me I can see the worry in his eyes and it just breaks my heart. I was really nervous this morning when we went to the vet and he was just as nervous as a result. When the Dr. finally came in he was shaking like a leaf and scared to death. It wasn't like him at all...he gave the dr. kisses afterwards though so it was alright. I use a mix for the raw, it's something I've used for previous dogs. Portion wise I'm at a loss though, with his appetite so off kilter I can't portion anything right :( Thanks for your support!

    @CrimsonO2. He will put pressure on it when he walks and he'll even try and run with it though still lame. When he's sitting he holds his paw up. The Dr. said it seemed to be more in the joint, he could have torqued (?) it a little. I'll have to bring up the chip idea to him if it doesn't get better.

    We have him on bed rest. He's been sleeping more I think. We only take him outside to do his business and then he comes right back inside, no stairs. Sometimes we even carry him outside and inside, he's a bit heavy for me so I don't do it when I'm home by myself, I can't get a good grip on him. We also stop him from playing when he tries to hop around and sprint through the kitchen with his toys (we took them all away except for 1). I got my canine massage therapy certification over the summer so I've been massaging him everyday. It doesn't seem to help but I do it anyway. It makes ME feel better.
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1544
    There seem to be a few issues in the Shikoku, with joint pain in adolescent dogs (and more often than not, males). Luckily it seems to go away with time. I used to think it was LP or HD, but apparently that's not usually the case. Panosteitis has been diagnosed in a few dogs, but apparently it's not always Pano either. A male pup born in Europe also started limping, but in this case apparently it was just growing pains, and not Pano.

    Regarding the food issue, I'm sure you will figure it out with time. I've had a fair few picky eaters here, but we've gotten through it. While there is definitely all sorts of advice out there, I would try to find something that works even nominally, and then just stick with that. Changing things around all the time will not help the dog's digestive system.

    Hugs to you. I know what it feels like to try to do everything perfectly, and then to experience issues like this. Just relax, breathe, and realize that he is a living creature so there will be ups and downs.
    Post edited by TheWalrus at 2014-02-06 08:12:16
  • @TheWalrus - Thanks for the support. What's the difference between growing pains and Pano? My vet described growing pains as Pano, which would only go away with time.

    His meds seemed to be working last night as he felt much better, and wanted to run around when we went out to potty. It was like tackling a wild bear! He did sleep most all of yesterday, or lay calmly on the floor and just look around which is unusual for him. Today it only seems mildly better with still the obvious limp just not as bad and he's putting more pressure on it when just standing/sitting.

    If it doesn't go away, gets worse, or comes back I will get to the bottom of it. If that means a full work up then so be it. There has to be a reason for it! That's what makes it all so strange. When you touch it he doesn't seem to flinch away from anything, so where is the pain coming from? He only somewhat got uncomfortable when he stretched his shoulder forward. But even then it didn't seem to pain him horribly. The severity of the limp and the pain he is responding to just doesn't seem to add up to me.
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • ShikokuShikoku
    Posts: 264
    I also agree with you dragonfly, there has to be a reason. Did you hear back from your vet officially? If your not satisfied with the answer maybe try a second opinion. Or an X-ray to confirm nothing is broken.

    I'm probably gonna get hell for this from the people who think dogs are humans lol but: a lot of times we will not see when our dog is in pain. In the wild pain was considered weakness and sometimes a dog/wolf would be kicked out of the pack. So when you touch him and he doesn't seem to wince or be in pain, that doesn't mean they aren't hurting... It could be that he just isn't showing that pain.

    I have said it before, but due to your even deepened and unresolved concerned for his leg , do you think an internal look at it would help ease your worries? X-ray , sonogram etc? Something to help assure you that it only requires time to heal. Maybe ask the breeder if they have experienced this before.

    -------------------
    Location:MD/VA/DC. Pets: Athena- Shikoku and Hades- Shiba Inu
  • @Shikoku - It's not broken. He felt all he bones and he didn't feel anything out of place. Like I said, the vet wants to see if it's something that will heal on it's own by giving it time. At this point there's nothing more we can do for him except wait and see how things progress, as hard as it is for me! I think he's hoping that it's just something he did to torque (?) it or similar. Like I said. If he's not showing progress or if he gets worse when he comes off his meds and relapses then I'm taking him back in. The dr. already left a not in his records that if I call without improvement or relapse then to schedule him in radiology to be dropped off. That'll be the next step. I'm not happy with not knowing...but I'm also not quite ready to spend THAT much on something that 'could' just be from him being a brute and tossing himself around like he does.

    I understand the pain/weakness concept, but it STILL doesn't add up!
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • ShikokuShikoku
    Posts: 264
    Completely understandable. The waiting game sucks! :(

    -------------------
    Location:MD/VA/DC. Pets: Athena- Shikoku and Hades- Shiba Inu
  • Well his leg seems better, he's not limping at all today!

    BUT last night he was up from 2am-8am going outside every hour with bad diarrhea. I thought maybe it was from a piece of a burger that my roommate dropped in his bowl when I wasn't looking XD and he ate a couple noodles I dropped from some pasta so who knows.

    But this morning he threw up this crap!


    WTF?????????????????????

    photo DSC04962_zpse3b20eac.jpg
    photo DSC04966_zps49115cc7.jpg


    It looks like it might be plastic, it's bendable and flexible. Doesn't look digestible at all! I suppose this stuff could be why he's not feeling so well. He heaved up some more bile about an hour after he chocked this stuff up but nothing since. He hasn't eaten today...

    Funny thing is I was so proud of him yesterday, he ate VERY well at every meal. I was with him all day and I didn't see him eat anything funny, he hasn't before...and I can't figure out what he could have found that would look like that stuff up there ^ Pretty gross.

    So we're moving from one delima to the next lol I'm hoping that he threw up all of it and starts feeling better by tonight..
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 503
    Um wow! I thought those were French fries!

    Hope he starts feeling better soon!
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 2205
    Looks like onions to me...which are a digestive system irritant (trying not to alarm you that it's not healthy for a dog to eat onions).

    Glad to hear that he's recovering from his pains.

    Jesse
    Jesse Pelayo

  • We don't have any onion in the house so it's probably not that...but good idea!! Thanks @CrimsonO2 @zandrame

    These are hard yet flexible, not mushy. Sort of waxy like on the outside but not wax. I'll probably never know what they are, but it would be nice to at least know where he might have gotten it or if there's more so it doesn't happen again..

    I'm gonna try and get him out of the house for a bit today. He's been cooped up too much and some fresh air and a new enviornment with friendly faces would do him some good I think.
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • ShikokuShikoku
    Posts: 264
    Um wow! I thought those were French fries!

    Hope he starts feeling better soon!


    Man! I have a weak stomach those pics are giving me the willies. Mediterranean I read the post I was like aww French fries, then I almost threw up as I finished reading. Yikes!

    Glad he is doing better?! Maybe the inside of a toy he may have chewed?

    What are you giving him now? My,con artist, but wonderful vet always recommends chicken broth for 2-3 days and then boiled rice 2 days after to help him cleanse and settle a dogs tummy. Especially after eating something from a ghost busters movie!! ( lol)

    -------------------
    Location:MD/VA/DC. Pets: Athena- Shikoku and Hades- Shiba Inu
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    Rakka limps quite a bit, and always has. It's better now, as I think she's outgrown it somewhat, but even at 7 years old, she still limps from time to time. Sometimes it's after a rough and tumble romp outdoors, and sometimes it's for no reason whatsoever. She has been to the vet plenty, had every x-ray available and blood work and this and that and all the rest, and no vet has ever found anything wrong with her.

    I have done my fair share of worrying myself sick over her limps, and now I've just come to accept it. She's perfectly happy and it doesn't slow her down, so we just leave it be.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
    image
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    Those pics... I dunno what that is but it's messed up.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
    image
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 4526
    Huh... That is odd. My first thought was wax. But if it is more like plastic, I have no idea.

    Hopefully that was all of it and he is eating normally and having normal bowel movements.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
  • jennjenn
    Posts: 89
    Poor guy! Rigby has snorked quite a few odd things in his day... there have been a few things I've never figured out either, but generally once they pass he feels much better. Is he doing better now?
  • @Shikoku - Sorry for grossing you out! It is pretty nasty...
    He's not eating anything right now. Ironically I did give him some chicken broth, he lost a lot of fluid and hasn't had much to drink but the broth he really enjoyed.

    @hondru - That sounds frustrating, I feel for you. I'm hoping this was a one time thing for him...but I have my doubts :(

    @sunyata - It is very unusual isn't it..

    @jenn - Thanks for asking! He's doing ok, sleeping right now. I've noticed the last couple days he's slept a lot more than he normally does. Hasn't eaten yet but I have hope that he'll eat a meal tonight maybe...
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 150
    @Dragonfly wow I thought those were french fries too.....Have you been watching everywhere he goes? I think you should be extra careful now since you don't know where they came from....

    Not to scare you but, I'm from the bay area and there have been couple stories where dog haters would purposely put rat poison/nails into tasty cheese or meats and leave them at dog parks....There is even one incident where one resident found it in their back yard...Their neighbor threw it over...but they didn't have any hard evidence.

    So be careful! :((
  • @Bootz - That's horrible! Sadly though it doesn't surprise me that people would do that. He's ALWAYS looking for stuff to eat when we go outside, constantly has his nose to the ground and it seems like every 2 seconds I'm picking something out of his mouth. Whether it's a leaf or cigarettes or a gatorade bottle he's got it in his mouth XD He found a dead aquarium fish on the ground one time (looked like an oscar) and swallowed it whole, nice sized fish too! I tried to pry it out of his mouth but it was useless. Silly dog. I haven't noticed him to be like that inside though so I'm curious now as to how this happened.

    I've scavanged the floors for any trace of what it was or where it came from and I came up empty handed. He's been inside the house most all of this week, only out to potty so it had to come from inside somewhere.

    People in my bulding get really upset if you don't pick up your dogs poop (which is understandable, I always pick mine up) but I know there have been threats to some who don't do it. Last night when he had diarrhea really bad it came out like water and I couldn't pick it up at all...so I just kicked some dirt over it to soak it up a little, I felt bad but what can you do!? Now there's like 10 dirt spots down there and I'm sure someone will notice XD With as much rain as we get here it'll be washed away in a couple days anyway. Oh well...

    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • jennjenn
    Posts: 89
    @dragonfly Oh yeah, the cigarette butts were the worst. Luckily Rigby grew out of it (mostly). The only things he picks up now are rocks, pinecones, and things that may actually be edible, like cat food. Thank goodness he finally learned the "leave it" command! :P

    I find that after a stomach upset Rigby will sleep more than usual too. As long as he's staying hydrated, he's interested in eating somewhat, his abdomen isn't swollen/painful, and he's not acting completely lethargic I wouldn't be too worried about it. Obviously if the diarrhea and vomiting continues though, it wouldn't be a bad idea to call/go to the vet.
    Post edited by jenn at 2014-02-07 17:53:24
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    Do you feed him raw food, with whole bones? Conker (who has chronic digestive problems) has thrown up bits of bone before that look almost identical to that.
    image
  • @Losech - I have fed him raw with bones before but I haven't the last couple weeks. But they do look a lot like bones, they're just too flexible though...

    @jenn - He's eating and drinking normally now. He's been cooped up in the house all week so I woke him up, dragged him out of bed, and took him to the pet store to be loved on by his admirers. ;) And he didn't throw up in the car this time!! He seemed to perk up after that and his leg/shoulder doesn't appear to bother him so I figured one trip for hugs and kisses wouldn't hurt and it helped his spirits I think. He's been so sullen recently, sleeping so much!
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    The bones Conker threw up were very bendy. Have you ever put a chicken bone in vinegar for a while and taken it out? It's bendy. Pretty cool actually. I don't know if bones are supposed to do that in a dog's stomach, but they did in Conker's.
    If you haven't given him any bones in a while, that's probably not what they are. However, I have heard of things hanging out in a dog's stomach for a while and getting thrown up later...
    image
  • @Losech - That's interesting, good to know! Thank you! If they are bones then they're from about a month ago...which makes me wonder if there's more in there...but his poops have been solid and besides his ongoing finicky habits he hasn't seemed like his digestive system is too unstable. But who knows these days lol
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    I hope you figure out what it was.
    Oh I just remembered that Katana ate one of Conker's toys (Bad Cuz) and was pooping out orange rubber bits for two weeks afterwards. I hadn't seen any pieces of it anywhere else during that time, so I suspect it just took forever to get through him.
    image
  • jennjenn
    Posts: 89

    @jenn - He's eating and drinking normally now. He's been cooped up in the house all week so I woke him up, dragged him out of bed, and took him to the pet store to be loved on by his admirers. ;) And he didn't throw up in the car this time!! He seemed to perk up after that and his leg/shoulder doesn't appear to bother him so I figured one trip for hugs and kisses wouldn't hurt and it helped his spirits I think. He's been so sullen recently, sleeping so much!


    Oh good! So glad he's feeling better and got some love! I imagine this may not be your first or last time dealing with mystery barfs/poops if he's anything like Rigby was as a puppy. :) He still gets the rainbow poops occasionally...oh dogs. Gotta love em!
  • DragonflyDragonfly
    Posts: 388
    Thought it was time for an update!

    I never did figure out what that was that he ate but he's been fine since then and eating better than he has in a while. He hasn't had anymore problems with limping. He was better after only about 4 days and back to normal by the end of the week. He's been running and playing like normal with no problems and we went on that hike a couple weeks ago and he did great! No soreness or limping.

    So I'm gonna assume that for now, with no way to tell otherwise, that it was probably just a sprain/bruise or something similar. Hope I don't jinx myself LOL
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • ShikokuShikoku
    Posts: 264
    Good deal! Lol

    -------------------
    Location:MD/VA/DC. Pets: Athena- Shikoku and Hades- Shiba Inu

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