Most ridiculous vet visit ever (UPDATED with MORE ridiculousness)
  • I'm from Northern Va and moved to Va beach about a year ago. I haven't had a dog here so I've had no reason to ever go to a vet until now. One of my friends recommended an office and it sounded pretty good so I figured why not, right? We weren't going in for anything in particular other than a check up and to get acquainted with his new vet and develop a game plan for the coming year. Well....I get there fill out some paperwork, walk up to the receptionist, she enters the info into her computer, and then she proceeds to tell me that he IS in fact an Akita and that the Shikoku isn't a dog breed...I argue with her for a good 20 minutes and hold up the line behind me before she finally gives. Although she still said that she just had to put Akita in his file because they didn't have Shikoku listed as a breed in they're database. It was bogus. Crazy woman...

    Then I get back there, the vet comes in, I explain to him what's going on. He goes through the motions and then proceeds to tell me about a package they offer for shots/neutering. It was good to know but not neccessary so I inform him that he WON'T be getting neutered and the drs attitude completley changed. He lectured me about how everyone should get they're pets fixed because by not neutering him I'm killing hundreds of shelter dogs and putting hundreds more on the street. The way he did it was so disrespectful! I tried talking to him but by the end of the conversation he basically told me that he doesn't support any type of dog breeding and that he was going to put him down for the neuter program in his file, even though I told him no. It was a losing battle...I was so upet by the time he was done I asked for the manager when I got out front and made a bit of a stink about how I was treated. She appologized and told me the visit was on the house...doesn't make it any better really but needless to say I wont ever be going back there that's for sure. All he did was insult me and my dog...

    I'm going to try using another vet that people from my pet store job actually use for themselves. He does exotics, dogs/cats, and reptiles. He sounds pretty promising but we'll see..

    On a better note, the little man did great at the vet! He didn't notice anything to be wrong so he was just as happy and friendly as could be :)
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
    Post edited by Dragonfly at 2014-01-16 18:26:16
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    Wow, people like that don't get my business. I'll walk out on a vet visit like that.
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  • Wow, what jerks! I do know that sometimes they have to put something in on dog breed and there software won't allow a write in apparently--this happened at my back up vet, when we brought Leo in. they thought they didn't have a space for Kai Ken, but they handled it very differently, which was to say it wasn't in there database, so did I have an opinion on what we could put instead? They they found Kai and we didn't have to do it.

    As for the rest, yeah, I would have been furious. What an ass. Glad you didn't have to pay for the visit.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • I went through 2 vets before I found one that i was satisfied with. The other two, like yours, had their own agendas which they tried to force on me. Aren't doctors supposed to be impartial, offer their educated opinions then let us choose? (to a certain extent of course). If their waiting room is a Show Room for Royal Canin, I'd leave ! Lol :D
  • AraksAraks
    Posts: 802
    Jeez what a jerk. I'm glad you're keeping him intact. Hopefully he can be used for the shikoku preservation efforts here in North America.
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 2210
    I went to my vet and when I told them the Shikoku Ken (dog) is a real breed, they added it to their database. To date, they maintain the health of 2 Shikoku, which, short from the vet that treats Corina's pack, is likely the most Shikoku any vet has to handle in Southern California. The other Shikoku is a male from Katja's kennel named Roku.

    I agree with the others. It's one thing for a vet to have their opinions and there's definitely a case to be made for rescuing. However, there's also an equally valid case for breed preservation. I'm glad you were able to get out and seek other options.

    Jesse
    Jesse Pelayo

  • @shibamistress I would have been furious if they still insisted I pay.

    @Araks That's the plan, hopefully he grows up to be a nice sound and healthy Shikoku Ken, with good prospect :) He's from Shigeru's litter Bishome x Unta. I'd like to show him here too. I use to show Goldens years ago and really enjoyed it.

    I wonder if there's any other Shikoku close to me..

    I'm just glad this crazy trip wasn't traumatizing for the little man.
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • mdokicmdokic
    Posts: 1020
    Oh man...sounds terrible. The last time I took Kimber to the vet here we got a TON of attitude too, but not as bad as your experience :( when I was talking to @creativejen she was telling me that's pretty typical of city vets, and that country vets are more relaxed about it.

    I agree wth @CrimsonO2, there's a need for rescue, but when you've done so much research and you're helping a breed out, that kind of backlash is just unnecessary...glad you got it free though!! And that he did so well! ^_^
    Michelle, with Kai girls Kona and Kimber
    DSC_6037_NEW_banner
  • cdenneycdenney
    Posts: 961
    Talk to your local dog people in the show/agility/working industry. They might know vets that are more intact friendly.
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  • omgtainomgtain
    Posts: 240
    First questions to always ask a vet: Their opinion on raw food and their opinion on keeping intact dogs.

    Most of them turn into monsters.

    I'm sorry you had to experience this though. :(
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    Tain, Nare the GSD/Husky, and Tavi the Kaigirl!
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 4533
    @Dragonfly - Oh man... That sounds horrid! I have no experience with vets in the Hampton Roads area, so I can not give out any recommendations. However, I do think that if you can find some show/working dog people that you might be able to get a good vet recommendation from them.

    If things work out, I will be looking for a new vet in the Northern Virginia area pretty soon. I am terrified of finding a new vet that both my dogs like and that will work with me in my more holistic approach to keeping Nola healthy. So, I definitely feel your pain.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
  • Hinata23Hinata23
    Posts: 1444
    We had something like that happen to us as well a little while go...

    We took Goro in, earlier this year, for his 1 yr old shots and it was seriously one of the worst experiences of my life! Goro was a little nervous because the previous vet had tried to click his nails and we all know how much Kai love getting their nails trimmed... The first thing the vet asked us was if he was typically nervous and scared at home because he didn't seem like a happy dog... We assured him that it was just at the vet and that he's usually a silly, playful, and happy dog. He gave us a spiel about neutering him and when we told him Goro was part of a preservation program, he start looking around for faults in Goro :(

    Then he wanted to cut his nails, even though we told him that he freaks out when we try. He had two techs come in, force Goro on his side and hold him down. After a lot of Goro screams, me yelling for him to stop, and Goro's peeing and crapping himself, the vet yelled at us saying it was our fault that he was like that. We told him that the breed in general doesn't like getting their nails clipped and that we have tried to expose him to getting his nails trimmed in the past. He flat out told us "You're lying" and stormed out the run to clean himself off (Goro peed on him).

    It was horrible!

    Post edited by Hinata23 at 2013-11-14 13:17:26
  • @sunyata- When I lived up in northern va we took our Kai to a vet in wv, it was a 40 min drive but well worth it. We fed raw at the time also and they were more than supportive of it :)

    @Hinata23 - OMG That's 10x worse than what happened to me! Poor goro :( I can imagine that made Goro's nail clipping anxiety even worse..if you have to hold them down to the point that they're so obviously distressed like that..I'd hate going to the vet too if I were him :( That's just uncalled for.

    @cdenney- I hadn't even thought of that..but now that you mention it I know just the people to ask :)
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3005
    First questions to always ask a vet: Their opinion on raw food and their opinion on keeping intact dogs.

    Most of them turn into monsters.

    I'm sorry you had to experience this though. :(

    Haha yeah saying anything about feeding raw, home cooked or intact will make them into monsters. God forbid your dog eat a sponge, sock or something and get obstruction. Vet will blame it on raw not the foreign item.

    Even if owner fed kibble am and raw or home cooked pm the vet probably would go nuts.

    My vet is against raw sadly not many vets in my area who willing to educate themselves so at least they can guide and make sure owner is feeding the diet right..

    I had zero plans keeping Saya intact, but I hoped to spay her at year old, but dad took her in at 6months without me knowing.. :| Ah well..

    My next dog will be an Hokkaido and I plan keep him/her intact to see if the dog is healthy and good candidate for it. So glad your helping the shikoku breed out I hope he grows nice and healthy.


    Then he wanted to cut his nails, even though we told him that he freaks out when we try. He had two techs come in, force Goro on his side and hold him down. After a lot of Goro screams, me yelling for him to stop, Goro's peeing and crapping himself, the vet yelled at us saying it was our fault that he was like that. We told him that the breed in general doesn't like getting their nails clipped and that we have tried to expose him to getting his nails trimmed in the past. He flat out told us "You're lying" and stormed out the run to clean himself off (Goro peed on him). It was horrible!


    Poor Goro! :(

    I don't get it why do they want to trim the dog nails so much I can understand if owner asks for it, but if owner rather they themselves trim the nail then vet should respect that.

    Saya is fine with getting nails trimmed she isn't fan of it, but tolerates it. I rather do it myself as I know her she knows me and I feel she'd be stressed with a vet doing it. Vet visit can be hard enough with all the poking and prodding.

    Dragonfly I hope your next vet is more understanding.

    Not every intact dog owner is irresponsible and let their dog mate willy nilly. :\
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • mdokicmdokic
    Posts: 1020
    OMG @Hinata23, poor you AND Goro!!! That's a nightmare :(
    Michelle, with Kai girls Kona and Kimber
    DSC_6037_NEW_banner
  • cdenneycdenney
    Posts: 961
    @sunyata there is a holistic vet in Ashburn recommended by the same people who got me my vet. I'll call and ask them.
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  • timkimtimkim
    Posts: 377
    my korean vet love to see ppl breed beautiful breed in right way. best part is he knows all the asian breed even though they are rare. like hokkaido, shikoku, JA, etc.
  • TrzcinaTrzcina
    Posts: 331
    Ecckk, that sounds miserable. I definitely wouldn't be going back to that vet! I will agree with the others, though, that asking local "dog people" (working/training/showing people) might yield some better results for vets that won't try to coerce you into neutering. Hopefully you have better luck with other vets in the area!
  • jennjenn
    Posts: 89
    Oh man, that sounds awful. I honestly hate taking Rigby to the vet. We've had decent experiences with a few of the vets at the hospital we take him to, but the one who was recommended to us by Rigby's trainer is honestly awful.

    He rolled his eyes many time on vaccinations Rigby was given by his breeder and the type of dog breed we chose (Shiba). He also called the Evanger's food Rigby was eating at his breeders "designer" and suggested I switch to something "cheaper". I'm sure they'd be horrified that he's eating raw now.

    He also tried to shove the whole "dominance" thing down my throat and suggested that I yell "no" in Rigby's face and hold his muzzle anytime he growled at us to "teach him his place." That guy is a piece of work. Luckily, we haven't had to see that particular vet since and I'm considering switching to a vet that will come to our home.

    Sorry for your bad experience. :( Hopefully you can find a much better vet!
    Post edited by jenn at 2013-11-14 17:23:55
  • Wow those stories are dramatically horrifying.

    Here's a link to holistic vet practitioners, top left you can search complete a search for a specific state etc. http://www.ahvma.org/

    Honestly I don't think it has to do with city vet or country vet but what the vet has been exposed to and what their philosophy is in regard to their clients/work and also the context in regard to specific demographic area .

    It gets pretty old when all a practitioners see is unwanted dogs/puppies and cats/kittens or cases of seized pets. In Hampton VA the Vick case I am sure put a lot of vets on guard and like anyone else they make assumptions particularly with novice pet owners.

    Hang in there and good luck with the search.
    Snf

  • NavyDogNavyDog
    Posts: 388
    We had that same thing happen to us when Yucca got her first set of shots. When we first came in, the vet techs at the desk all thought she was a shiba and I explained to them what a Kai which wasnt a problem. They actually were interested to know more but when we met the Vet it was a different story. First she came in and before even looking into Yuccas record, stated that she was a shiba. I corrected her but she ignored me and continued to talk about my "shiba". What i am to expect from my shiba, what to look for healthwise in my shiba, how big my shiba will get, what my shibas personality will be like. I corrected her everytime and she would always roll her eyes and continue her lecture. I just gave up and asked to be givin a different vet for future visits. I think she must have went home at googled Kai Ken though cause the next time we saw her she said "oh hi kai, I can see your stripes are coming in!!".
    Now when we go to the vet, everyone knows Yucca :) though after my recent visit with my other dog cayenne, we will probably be switching to somewhere else. Cayenne has been to the vet twice now with life threatening circumstances so now she is pretty terrified of "scary blue people" vet techs. This past visit she was nervous like usual, she growls when the techs first enter the room but then after a minute she calms down. they needed to take her in the back for some tests and in the past they have not had problems with her back there but time we had a new technician who, im guessing, doesnt trust bully types because he refused to take her unless she was muzzled. Cayenne has never worn a muzzle in her life and i regret doing it to her. her stress level tripled! she didnt want to move and the man drug her into the back. When Cayenne came back it was with the Vet, not the tech, she had no muzzle on, tail was wagging and she looked happy. The vet apologized but said that the tech was right to muzzle her.

    btw @Dragonfly when you find a good vet, let me know. We will be moving to Norfolk this spring
  • JaanaSJaanaS
    Posts: 68
    These stories are interesting to read. From my point of view because I live in a country where dogs usually aren't neutered and so vets don't push neutering unless it's for medical reasons. This helps understand the size of "neuter-every-dog" mentality you have there.
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 62
    Ugh, that's unfortunate.

    I'm still with the same vet from when Sagan was a puppy, but when he got his yearly shots a few months ago, one of the newer vet techs complained that Sagan "needs more socialization." We asked why, and it was because "he growled and snapped (but didn't bite) at her when attempting to put multiple shots in him."

    Instead of a muzzle, I asked if I could hold him instead (because they have a policy of not "allowing" patients in the back). He didn't budge or move a muscle when they re-did the shots while holding him. I asked the same vet tech how I could possibly socialize him more for shots, and she didn't really respond. :-/
  • @JaanaS - Yes, that's sadly the mentality of most vets here. It's difficult to work with. There's nothing worse than feeling like you've been attacked every time you go to the vet.

    @NavyDog - I asked around and got a couple promising recommendations from people. I'm going to be calling around tomorrow, comparing prices, getting a general feel for them, and I'm considering asking to speak to a vet about things to see what they think and how they react before I go in. There's no sense in wasting they're time and more importantly my money if it's not going to work out anyway.

    @StaticNfuzz - Thanks for the link! I'll check out those vets as well. I can understand they're reasoning behind the spay/neuter everything with reproductive organs philosophy but there's a line and a difference. Some vets are just so close minded that you can't tell them anything..some would probably even argue the grass being green..lol

    I'll be making lots of calls tomorrow..I didn't really think it would be this complicated!

    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • NanookNanook
    Posts: 111
    I had nd still have a skmilar experience everytime I bring in miyako, the receptionists discuss her breed because they never heard of a JA or the split between AA and JA and they assume miyako is a shiba husky akita mix. Whe I first briught miyako to the vet on the 2nd day we got her for checkup the vet bombarded me with insults as to whT breeding facility she came from she doesnt support BYBs or mills that she was spayed too young etc...I explained to her as calmly as I could that and told her not to talk about my pup and explained that nanook was also neutered at a young age but he had hernia. Apparently mihako being spayed so young was the talk of the office and the new gossip Staten islanders live off of because when I bought her back a third time a new vet says "Remember this is the puppy I told you that was spayed so young, oh poor baby". Now heres the fun part...no matter what I do miyako is not keen on strangers unless she meets them constantly then she warms up to them. Ok so anyways while I was waiting for miyako to get her ranies the vet that made the comment then adds that miyako is aggressive and vicious that she needs help and training and how shell eventually need a muzzle because shes a large powerful breed....all miyako is is a barker she has never bit anyone or even growled and snarled even if people on the street approCh her with my permission. Being that miyakos barking issue and her being spayed so young is the gossip of the office my mom and I will most likely switch vets.
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    I like my current vet.
    Other than right after I got him for a "Hello this is my new dog!" visit, Katana hasn't been to the vet yet. So, I don't really know how my vet is with the whole spay/neuter thing (my other three have been altered...) and it'll tick me off if they are militant about it. They know I feed raw/homemade/whole foods and are generally okay with it, and I would hate to have to find a new vet if my current one treated me badly about the intact dog thing.
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  • @Nanook - Good grief, some people are just so rude! I'd definitley switch vets, they shouldn't talk about miyako like that..

    On another note. I'm not sure when would be a good idea to get his rabies, I know a lot of vets push it as early as 12 weeks but I feel like that's way too soon. He's had his first set of shots, 2 more and he'll be done with that. Back when I worked with a vet tech she taught me how to give vaccines, I helped vaccinate puppies for her regularly. It's a lot cheaper than what the vet charges and as long as you know how to give it properly it's all the same. She had a form made up with a spot for the labels off the bottle and kept a date record, most all places accept it. The only thing required to be given by a vet by law is rabies. I don't think I'll get the bordetella unless he needs it, might get the lyme vaccine because I've known dogs to get it in the area but I'm not sure. Would it be harmful to get the rabies when they're so young?
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    I only do rabies (3 years), and parvo/distemper. I don't do anything else, and sometimes go to a vaccine clinic unless the dog hasn't been to the vet in a while. I know how to do it myself but I usually don't.

    I don't think vaccinating a pup for rabies when they are young is bad, since they usually get other combo vaccines at the vet (several times), and bad things very rarely ever happen with vaccines. I probably wouldn't, since I am generally in favor of as few vaccines as possible for pups.
    I'd check into your local laws. Some places require it by a certain age, others just require it and don't state anything about the dog's age.
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    Post edited by Losech at 2013-11-14 21:27:35
  • This is a problem I never have... because I researched and found one of the only canine reproductive specialists in So Cal. She is perfectly happy with me keeping my dogs intact, and goes out of her way to make sure that other things we do (certain vaccinations, antibiotics, etc) wouldn't have an impact on reproductive health.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3005
    Not sure on rabies Saya got rabies at 14 weeks I believe or maybe 15.. I forgot. :\

    Photobucket
    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1780
    I haven't had any issue with vets in regard to my dogs' breeds (they are usually only interested to know about a new breed) or keeping my dog intact.

    I have had issues getting TK to a vet that will work with him, though, or issues with how TK is treated because of his anxiety/aggression.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • My vet was OK with us not spaying Yume when he heard she was a rarer breed. What really surprised me was when we got her microchipped their was an option for Ainu-inu as a breed!
  • _Ryan__Ryan_
    Posts: 69
    Calmy walk out. Not worth your emotion.
    Bella (Sherae Aka Akicho) | F | Born 27/1/2012
    Suki (Aust. Ch. Betlin Takaisuki) | M | Born 03/02/2005, adopted 10/09/2012
  • We went to a different vet today and it was 100x better than our last experience. All the staff greeted us when we came in and everyone fawned over him, he loved the attention of course. We went straight back and they were all amazed by the japanese on his vaccine slip. I asked if they'd ever heard of the Shikoku before and of course they hadn't so I offered them some info on the breed that I had printed out before hand just incase ;) They were all gathered around the computer googling it anyway. The vet read what I gave them before coming in so she had a general idea of what he was. She was 100% supportive of keeping him intact. They did a great job handling him during the exam and giving him his shots. He was a little fussy when she checked his teeth but she handled it very well and was patient with him. We had some really good conversations to boot. I'm looking forward to our next visit :)
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 508
    Hooray! :)
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    Sweet! It's nice having a good vet that you don't have to constantly argue with.
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  • beautiful! a happy ending! :)
    photo Picture 3_zps4y5sotml.png Kai to the Core!
  • mdokicmdokic
    Posts: 1020
    AWESOME! :D
    Michelle, with Kai girls Kona and Kimber
    DSC_6037_NEW_banner
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    I'm glad you found a good vet! It's surprisingly hard to find one that isn't either set in "the old ways" of declawing via nail clippers, drinking the corporate sales kool-aid in regards of neuter/spay 100% of the time no excuses, subscribers to dominance theory, and/or arrogant know-it-alls.

    The last one that I worked with told me that I needed to be more heavy handed with Ren since she didn't think I was the alpha... and that she was the alpha. Anyone that has met us would know that's idiotic lol. (@Sangmort @hinata23)

    Overall I've worked for around 12 vets, and would only have let maybe 4 of them ever work with Ren. So now that you've found a good one, hold on to them! :)
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
    Post edited by cezieg at 2013-11-22 16:16:52
  • Hinata23Hinata23
    Posts: 1444
    @cezieg Yeah... Ren and alpha in the same sentence is a bit weird. She's more of a buddy than a dominate girly.
  • That was only our first visit but I went back in today to drop off a stool sample and they already remembered exactly who I was and who my dog was. I moved his next appointment up to the 4th so that he'll have his rabies and all his shots done when we have the meet up on the 7th. It makes me nervous taking him to places like that without it, better safe than sorry.
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • @Dragonfly,

    I am so, so sorry that you had to go through that! That's the last thing that any pet owner should have to deal with when going to the vet! I had a terrible vet visit as well. I was told to go to this office and the exam would be free. Well, never will I go with recommendations again. I go to a smaller clinic near my home. They are severely nice and friendly! They LOVE all animals equally! I sure hope you find the right veterinarian. It's so important to you and your pup. That way you get great customer service and your pup gets lovely attention from nurses and doctors! :) :) Your pup is absolutely adorable! Post some more pictures when you get a chance.
    photo 6b74d441-46df-4852-af9a-1f765aea9bb0.jpg
  • SOOO...we've gone to the vet again and of course they're all wonderful! I walk in the door and the one girl goes 'is this the dog' and the other one goes 'yeah that's the rare one from japan, she had him flown all the way here' and then another girl goes 'YEAH I was just googling him!' and then they go on to talk about how they're mystified by the Japanese on some of his paperwork..It was comical.

    Anyway, I LOVE talking with this vet, we sat in the exam room after everything was done for about 30 minutes just talking about anything and everything. She mentioned to me that the company that manufactures the heartworm treatment here in the US officially and permanently shut down...and she only had a VERY limited supply. She said they might be able to get it from France but she didn't know. Apparently they had just gotten the email from the company right before I arrived stating that they would no longer be in production and to only offer any remaining treatments to severe cases. That's some scary stuff right there..

    She also wants to give kiyoshi a 4TH parvo vaccine...He'll be 16 weeks the 21st and she insists I get a 4th when we go in on the 23rd. I think it's very much excessive but what do you guys think?
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • Sounds much better, except for the 4th parvo vaccine. Why? What is her justification for that? If they want to do a lot of vacs, that's not good either, unless there is some reason for the 4th shot? Have there been bad parvo outbreaks? But even if there were, I'm dubious about the need for a fourth vaccination (why would that give more immunity than the normal three?)

    I'd refuse it myself, unless they could convince me of the need for it, which I have a hard time seeing, frankly. I don't even get all the shots done at the same time--like we are going in for my Akitas final round of puppy shots next week, but she will get the rabies shot at a separate time....it's just too much to give them all at once. (I follow Dr. Dodds vaccine protocol, and it is also what my breeder suggested).
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • She said that his immune system wouldn't fully protect him until 16 weeks and that they normally get the vaccines every couple weeks until they're 16 weeks to make sure they're immune system is up and running, or something of the sorts. I sort of stopped listening after she said 4th vaccine. I've never heard of doing 4 just because the dog is 16 weeks old
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • If you have had problems with reactions previously or with digestion or other immune issues, you could just leave it at three and at a year have a titer done and a fourth if the panel shows he needs it.

    It also really depends on the parvo outbreaks in your area. Ask your vet how many there have been or what she has seen. In high risk situations it may be worth the fourth. Just depends.

    As a side note: lot of vets prefer to give a fourth. It seems like many more than not. Each has their own protocol. It might be that the some of the parvo vaccs have not been as effective covering across multiple strains and are not fully protecting, or the manufacture is suggesting new protocol. Not sure, that's just speculation.


    Snf
    Post edited by StaticNfuzz at 2013-12-17 09:53:24
  • mdokicmdokic
    Posts: 1020
    As I understand and have been told, vets like to do either 4 rounds of distemper/parvo (one every few weeks), or 3 rounds (one every 4 weeks)..so it's not too uncommon or strange..a lot of vets around here for whatever reason like to do the 4, which I did with Kona, but I got the 3 for Kimber :)
    Michelle, with Kai girls Kona and Kimber
    DSC_6037_NEW_banner
    Post edited by mdokic at 2013-12-17 11:17:20
  • Wow, I've never had a dog get four. They get three usually: one by the breeder right before I get them (so 7-8 weeks). Then the next two a month apart. That's what my rather old school vets suggest, and that's what the other local vets I've been to suggest too. I prefer Dr. Dodds protocol for minimal vaccinations, here, and she says the third vaccination is optional:

    http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM

    I wouldn't do four myself. I think it is unnecessary, and there is plenty of reasons to suggest over vaccinating dogs is not good, ESPECIALLY for Nihon Ken. While there hasn't been a lot of information on the other breeds, Akitas are a breed that are known to have bad reactions to vaccinations, and I've seen it in my Shibas too, so I believe it is likely that other NK probably tend toward this too.


    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • I've had one puppy (out of nine) who has bad reactions to vaccines. That was enough to convince my vet to let us do single shots of distemper and parvo instead of the 5-in-1 combo shot. Works well. But I think if they kept on the same pattern, my pups would also get 4 shots. They get shots at 4 & 8 or 6 & 9 weeks old in my care and need at least the third at 12. But I wouldn't be surprised if they get a 4th at 16 because they get rabies then.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
  • Our previous dogs only ever had 3. I'm just not too keen on getting a 4th done, there haven't been any parvo outbreaks here recently and I don't see the need for it. I've always felt like 3 was overkill as it is
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • mdokicmdokic
    Posts: 1020
    Completely agree! There must be some sort of play on immunization that goes on with the 4 vs 3...just telling you what i've heard, not sure why other vets like to do 4 rounds three weeks apart, but if we have anyone who knows more about the process and bio behind it they can probably explain it better! Like I said, I just did the 4 before with Kona because that was a different vet and they recommended that, but my current vet does the three, which is what Kimber got, and after talking with some people I'm glad we went with three. :)
    Michelle, with Kai girls Kona and Kimber
    DSC_6037_NEW_banner
    Post edited by mdokic at 2013-12-17 15:12:50
  • @Dragonfly What Vet Is this? Im in your area as well, and its always good to have backups :)
  • DragonflyDragonfly
    Posts: 388
    @not4dagames - Its called Cooke Veterinary Medical Center :) What kind of dogs do you have? That's awesome your in my area
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • As follow up to the above....I was taking with a seasoned group of individuals with different breed dogs (sort of informal survey) and they all agreed that there is a varying degree of protocol/practices among the vets regarding vaccs and feeding. Regardless of breed most had to dump a one or two practitioners before they found the right fit. Yeah, it's always good to have a back up vet, you just never know when your regular doc will be out of town etc.

    Snf
  • @Dragonfly , Sorry I lied- thought you were in Northern Virginia. Im in the DC Metro Area , Silver Spring to be Exact.
  • I read in another post that you are in Virginia Beach. Looks like the local SPCA there deals with Parvo fairly often. It could be that the Parvo risk is higher in your area, which would lead your vet to suggest a fourth Parvo vaccination.
    I agree that some vets over-vaccinate, and that more vaccinations means more risks, without necessarily providing more protection. However, Parvo can survive in the environment many months, and it can be lethal.
    This story is from 5 months ago. https://www.myworldnews.com/Channel/189-wavy/Story/178248-parvo-concerns-at-the-virginia-beach-spca
    This one is from 2009. http://www.examiner.com/article/deadly-parvo-outbreak-at-virginia-shelter-many-euthanized
  • Very good info
  • DragonflyDragonfly
    Posts: 388
    @not4dagames- im in va beach but I travel up to northern va every week. In fact I'm headed your way tonight :)

    @RustyAngel - Thanks for the info. We go again next week but since he's going on 6 months idk if it'd still be necessary. I guess I'll find out
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • Should do a meetup one day
  • DragonflyDragonfly
    Posts: 388
    Soooo..went to do a water class with kiyoshi and I took his records in and they wouldn't take him because they said his 'distemper' was expired. Even though his record states that he's had 3, the vet recommend a 4th AND 5th in the notes box. I called and they said that they RECOMMEND vaccinating every 2 weeks until 20 weeks of age. So this place won't take his records because of that.


    Its extremely frustrating and there's no way in hell I'm vaccinating him 5 times...

    Should I get a new vet? Would they say the same thing?
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    Dumb. I don't take my dogs to places that require vaccination records for anything except rabies.

    My vet(s) respects my decisions on if/when to vaccinate. I've just told them that is not up for debate, as is nutrition (unless I ask a question) and especially spay/neuter. They know that my dogs are very well cared for, and that I have done extensive research on these things so it's not like I just read some article online and suddenly decided not to do X because the internet said so.

    Anywho, vets who push things on me don't get my business. I wouldn't vaccinate a pup 5 times, that is stupid. I do think vaccines are good, but not if overused, and I consider 4 times a bit excessive.
    Conker got 3 puppy combo vaccines (shelter told me to get a 4th but I never did) and 1 parvo/distemper when he was something over a year. He's not getting another one for another three years at least. I don't think I'm gonna vax the Girls again (except rabies because the law says so), they will be 9 this year. I do not think they need it.
    image
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    double post
    image
    Post edited by Losech at 2014-01-16 20:33:56
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3974
    I know it sounds silly, but what about blacking out that info in the notes section? It seems to do more harm than good and if anyone asks you could say that it came like that.

    Could also get a titer done as proof that your dog is protected.

    image
  • DragonflyDragonfly
    Posts: 388
    @Calia- I 'fixed' it LOL Suddenly they accepted it...just goes to show. I'm thinking about getting a titer done but idk if should get it done now or later.


    @Losech- Its incredibly stupid. And I spent a good hour on the phone with them arguing about it. They told me they would not remove the recommendations because it went against what they practiced. And that they wouldnt be able to say that he's covered or safe to be around other dogs until he's gotten the last of the vaccines.

    Its a shame :( I was so pleased with this place otherwise. Im thinking about looking at other vets.
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • Get a new vet for sure. Overvaccinating your dogs is not good for them, and if they insist on this, you don't want to do business with them. What asses!
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • I was looking in to titers the other day for Mosura. My mom's vet wants to charge $300 for DHPP titer! Holy crap, is that normal?! I expected it to cost about as much as the vaccinations itself.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
  • @ PoeticDragon: for comparison, it's usually around $100 for us. Are you sure they are not including cbc and exam costs in there?

    @ Dragonfly: Take a look at the link to holistic practitioners (I believe there are some in your area), I think those individuals may give you a little more flexibility and could address the concerns a little better. Holistic vets are not all one or nothing so they typically balance things out.

    Snf
    Post edited by StaticNfuzz at 2014-01-21 20:25:46
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 508
    @PoeticDragon, I was planning on sending any future blood work for Kouda to Dr Dodds so she can check his thyroid again. Depending on how close you are to Garden Grove, you wouldn't even have to ship it.
    Prices here:
    http://labordatenbank.com/cake/hemopet/samples/hemopet_form
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3974
    @PoeticDragon, I got distemper (and maybe Parvo, can't remember) titers done when we were giving two of the pups rabies boosters. Cost $75 per dog, and Long Island is generally pricier than most other areas. You might want to get more info on that quote and see if they'll give you a break down of what is done.
    image
  • Yeah, I was going to suggest HemoPet. Their titer tests are much more reasonable!
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • How long is a titer considered valid? Do you have to do them every year? The science is good but the price is really prohibitive to the effort of getting more people to not over-vaccinate dogs. A rabies shot is "good" for 3 years, and you pay $xx for it. But if you have to titer every year for $100 a test, plus titers for whatever else, ie: DHPP, I see why titers wont be all the rage anytime soon. A cheaper titer is what's needed if this is going to go anywhere with the general dog owning population and for that matter- with the attitude of vets who serve them. You can't blame a vet for making some assumptions when you consider the vast vast majority of their clients' desires and education on dog health. Most of them are NOT like us. A vet should remain open to educated clients but too many walk through the door wanting to pay as little as possible, "just give me the shot, I feed her Beneful, I didnt notice the lump, shes been shaking her head and scratching that ear for weeks, I thought it would just go away on it own, Ive already spent too much on this dog, I coudl buy a whole new dog for that price, she rides in the bed of my truck and she's trained to stay, so I never thought what if some other car hit ME" I see why many vets become jaded. ( I used to take long bike rides with a veterinarian neighbor- she had MANY peeves about pet owners and bad science)
    photo Picture 3_zps4y5sotml.png Kai to the Core!
    Post edited by WrylyBrindle at 2014-01-22 09:13:27
  • How long is a titer considered valid? Do you have to do them every year?


    @ wryly:

    We get ours done yearly at a wellness exam (we also have a few geriatric dogs that require a bit more medical attention) and so far so good we have not had to revaccinate. As I understand the titers do not cover for every type of vaccine immunization, just Parvo and Distemper, and possibly Rabies for those areas that legally allow that.. There may be others vaccs that are titered but I have not been informed of it.

    How long is it valid
    , this is a good question…..It is subjective. I have been told point blank by one vet, that titer results are "crap" and not worth the info the day after it is done. It was explained that immunity could drop at any time….blah blah blah. IMHO same could happen with of the vaccs, so I don't fully buy into that argument.


    Generally speaking there are quite a few more vacc you could give on top of the basic line up too. Sadly boarding/and or training facilities actually seem to dictate what the protocol will be in a region, probably due to liability and rumors of breakout of random diseases… Many pet owners won't argue it since they are between a rock and a hard place if they need day care or boarding …. basically forced into the "required" line up.

    I agree, expense for titer is an issue (perhaps inflated to make up for costs the clinic may lose over the long haul). I know much younger starting out titer cost would have been prohibitive early in my career…. For the average family it's really much cheaper to have the shots and shut up about it and come back every three years for the immunization visits.

    Oh and about Dr. Dodds....if you want to see a few vets get their nickers in a twist, just ask them to take a blood sample to be sent to Jean Dodds (lol). There more than likely will be a charge for it and more than you will have to tussle to get them to fill the vials.

    Snf
    Post edited by StaticNfuzz at 2014-01-22 10:30:46
  • Brace yourself for this one, then- my Banfield vet (when I lived in Massachusetts) gave me no static what so ever about sending Sage's blood to Dr Dodds. He was a great vet though, and we had great respect for each other - he was super handling Sage, and I think he really enjoyed having a client who asked good questions and did her homework. From what I hear, he is probably the exception to chain vets, though.
    photo Picture 3_zps4y5sotml.png Kai to the Core!
    Post edited by WrylyBrindle at 2014-01-22 10:48:16
  • Bainfield...that's pretty amazing. I would say he/she is the exception, chain or not.....we need to clone that vet (lol).

    Honestly you really have to be prepared for whatever they may throw at you. There is a balance when you find the right one....Basically advocate for your dog(s) like you would do for your kids. Change does not happen in a vacuum. I know some of the training centers here are a bit more flexible so the titers are being honored if there is proof of initial vaccs (three rounds).

    Snf



    Post edited by StaticNfuzz at 2014-01-22 11:01:25
  • DragonflyDragonfly
    Posts: 388
    This is all so frustrating...that vet was on the holistic list!

    @PoeticDragon, I was planning on sending any future blood work for Kouda to Dr Dodds so she can check his thyroid again. Depending on how close you are to Garden Grove, you wouldn't even have to ship it.
    Prices here:
    http://labordatenbank.com/cake/hemopet/samples/hemopet_form

    I'll test out a new vet by asking them to send bloodwork there. No beating around the bush this time. I feel like I need to go in for an interview with vets BEFORE I pick them. Anyone else think that would be weird..but unusually necessary it seems like.



    Honestly you really have to be prepared for whatever they may throw at you. There is a balance when you find the right one....Basically advocate for your dog(s) like you would do for your kids. Change does not happen in a vacuum. I know some of the training centers here are a bit more flexible so the titers are being honored if there is proof of initial vaccs (three rounds).


    With my sisters Kai we had a good friend of ours who's a vet tech do all of her shots and kept a record on a getto looking piece of paper of all 3 of her vaccines. We just peeled off the labels on the vials and stuck them on there with the date given, along with dates/doses of wormers. My sister took her to training classes at petsmart and they accepted the vaccine labels no problem. We got the rabies done by a vet but they've never had a problem with her vaccs!


    I'm going to call around and compare prices/info on titers. I'm curious as to what one vet has to say vs. another, or if I hear the same speach every time.
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • Talking with other dog owners in your area really helps whittle it down. Get that word of mouth thing working for you :) Ask your puppy trainer who they take their dogs to, or pet sitters, dog walkers...who do they use for a vet. Its a huge task to work the phone book.
    photo Picture 3_zps4y5sotml.png Kai to the Core!
  • Yeah, my vet got a bit upset when I asked to send they thyroid testing to Dr. Dodds, but we agreed to disagree. :)

    I don't know how long the titer results last legally, but in the vaccinations thread, the top canine immunologist in the US says he believes that in most cases, the dogs have lifetime immunity after a certain amount of time (I don't remember exactly--the video is around here, but I think it was after having two years with of vaccinations) so frankly, I don't even bother with titer testing yearly unless you have to (for boarding or classes, etc).

    Toby, who will be 10 on Saturday, has not had any more vaccinations (except the required rabies), for about 4-5 years now. I have never titer tested him, either, because he doesn't get boarded. He's had some bad reactions, and my very old school vet just said they don't think he needs it--he's had plenty of vaccinations in his life and probably has a good immunity. And when Zora had the bad reaction to the DHLP, they said we'll simply write a letter stating further vaccinations would be hazardous to her health, and be done with it for those. They believe that dogs do mostly, have lifetime immunity after the vaccinations at a year. (Since we now think it was the lepto she reacted to, I will probably revaccinate her at 1 year of age without the lepto and then no more, except for rabies).
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • I am going to Dr. Dodds seminar in a week and a half. I will ask her specifically about how long titer results are good for.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3974
    I think the length of a titer depends on the dog and how they built immunity to that specific disease. I remember reading something that stated that the type of exposure (modified live vaccine, dead microbe vaccine, getting sick, etc) to a virus can affect the duration of immunity, and that actually surviving getting sick offered the longest duration.

    I also remember hearing that the results of a titer can tell you the duration of immunity, that the more antibodies they find in the sample, the longer the immunity lasts. And that if the antibodies are below a certain amount, it is advisable to get re-vaccinated to boost them back up.
    image
  • I think 'good for' is also an administrative condition- ie: as Town Clerk, I register dogs for their licenses, and the purpose of licensing dogs is largely for the state to track rabies compliance- the fees collected go to fund VSNIP (a low cost spay/neuter program) and Rabies education/management programs in the state. However I attended a dog laws workshop last year and asked the lawyer about accepting rabies titers, and he said as the law is currently written in this state, a titer is not acceptable, only vaccination. This sucks for me, as I -personally- know/value what a titer is, but the state ties my hands about accepting a titer for license registration- so in that sense, a titer may be "good for" and accepted by some things (like taking a class) but not others (like licensing).

    Having read Beth's link- I see that some states are still struggling to accept the 3 year rabies vax, vs the 1 or 2 year, so I guess by that measure, VT is doing well since we accept the 3 year.
    photo Picture 3_zps4y5sotml.png Kai to the Core!
  • I actually care about my dogs not picking up parvo/distemper, far more than licensing, classes, or kenneling. I want to know how long a titer is "good for" for that reason only.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
  • I actually care about my dogs not picking up parvo/distemper, far more than licensing, classes, or kenneling.


    Well, of course. I'm just adding to the breadth of the topic, here, not 'not-caring' about dogs picking up diseases. My point is only that even if a rabies titer proves the dog is immune for 7 years, until laws catch up even the most accommodating states will require a vaccination after 3 years.
    photo Picture 3_zps4y5sotml.png Kai to the Core!
    Post edited by WrylyBrindle at 2014-01-23 07:01:48
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1977
    Take good notes for us, Claire! :-)
  • Thanks Calia these links address many of the initial questions more than one of us had!

    Poetic Dragon….Yes, please report back on Dodds seminar after you have attended.

    Snf
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3974
    According to the Jean Dodds link I posted:

    "What do I do if the titer shows that my pet has immunity?
    If your pet’s titer levels show that an adequate immune memory has been established, you do not need to create the potential for vaccinosis by introducing unnecessary antigen, adjuvant, and preservatives into his body via booster vaccines. Instead, skip the boosters and have your dog re-titered in three years."

    "What if the titer test is negative?
    Interpreting titers correctly depends upon the disease in question. Some titers must reach a certain level to indicate immunity, but with the clinically important “core” diseases vaccines, the presence of any measurable antibody indicates protection.

    A positive titer test result is fairly straightforward, but a negative titer test result can be more difficult to interpret. This is because a negative titer is not the same thing as a zero titer, and it doesn’t necessarily mean that the animal is unprotected. A negative result usually means that the titer has failed to reach a desired threshold antibody level, but a low titer may still mean that the dog is protected upon exposure, as it doesn’t reflect tissue levels of immunity."


    So according to her article, a titer that shows a dog being sufficiently immune is 'good for' 3 years before having to retake it.
    image
  • I think if I was to get any horrible vet like the above mentioned, I would go all Malcolm Tucker on them! X(

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