Using medication for anxiety?
Last night at Control Unleashed class, the instructor (a behaviorist) suggested considering medication (alongside training) to help Lobo overcome his anxiety. In a nutshell, Lobo has anxiety about strangers (particularly strangers who don't have dogs with them). He has a loud, booming bark and will use it against anyone who approaches us from over 100 feet away. The factors at play: he is a herding breed that herds by barking, he is probably genetically predisposed for anxiety (his mother was de-barked by the breeder), he had a traumatic week of vet visits when he was in a fear phase of his puppyhood, and I basically can't bring him in public without disturbing the peace. I've been training him since I got him when he was 9 weeks old, I use non-aversive methods, and despite becoming a dog training geek (clicker training, control unleashed, and behavior adjustment training, oh my!), his anxiety is persistent. The trainer suggested that the meds might help get him over a training hump, so that I can rebuild his association with people, instead of letting him sit on his anxiety during a formative time in his life (he is 11 months old). At risk of making this post way too long, at this point I'll say you can read more about him on http://buhundblog.com
I was wondering if anyone here has experience using meds to treat anxiety on their dogs. I did a search and am tagging the people who seem to have had some experience with dog meds, I hope you don't mind: @dlroberts @brada1878 @WrylyBrindle @tsukitsune @shibamistress
What I'd like to know is if you tried medication on your dog, which one(s) did you use? How did it change your dog, if at all? Is your dog still on the medication? If not, did the changes remain after weaning?
I'd appreciate input from anyone with an opinion on this! Tagging @losech and @lindsayt because you both have given me great advice in the past
I was wondering if anyone here has experience using meds to treat anxiety on their dogs. I did a search and am tagging the people who seem to have had some experience with dog meds, I hope you don't mind: @dlroberts @brada1878 @WrylyBrindle @tsukitsune @shibamistress
What I'd like to know is if you tried medication on your dog, which one(s) did you use? How did it change your dog, if at all? Is your dog still on the medication? If not, did the changes remain after weaning?
I'd appreciate input from anyone with an opinion on this! Tagging @losech and @lindsayt because you both have given me great advice in the past
Comments
Perhaps this will help you.
But what might be useful is simply to know that if one doesn't work, try another. And another if necessary, until you find something that will work (I also know this from my personal experience with antidepressants! Sometimes it takes awhile to find the right one). Sometimes, also, you'll have to use a variety of things to handle anxiety.
Bel had serious anxiety and terrible fear of a number of things, including thunderstorms. She was actually pretty much unable to go anywhere, except for walks in our neighborhood, because she was terrified of new people and new situations. She also had a high level of dog aggression. We tried valium first. It was immediately not successful. Instead of calming her, she got hyperactive, and even more aggressive, snapping and snarling at the other dogs for no apparent reason.
Then we tried xanax. Same thing as valium. That was not good, but at least we had an immediate reaction (one dose and she was pacing the house like crazy) so we knew it wasn't going to work. Finally we tried prozac. This seemed promising for two days, because I didn't notice anything at all. Then on day three she was ragingly aggressive. Since aggression can be triggered by prozac, and that was part of her initial problem, it was clearly not going to work.
My regular vet does not use these kind of drugs, so I was having to see another vet every time we changed the meds, and then he closed up shop, so I had a few months of doing nothing while I figured out where else to go. In that time, she had some seizures, and then we realized these were only the first seizures I'd seen (but not the first seizures), so we started her on a dose of phenobarbital to control the seizures. This had the side effect of taking the edge off her anxiety (in her case perhaps it was exacerbated by seizure activity). So we didn't further explore anti-anxiety drugs.
However, she continued to be anxious, just not quite as bad. Since I was hesitant to add another drug with the pb (and what would it be anyway? ), we went with more natural remedies. We discovered that using a thundershirt and a DAP diffuser in the house would help with the thunder/noise phobia to a degree. (She'd still be anxious but not quite as bad). Sometimes my vet said we could very slightly up her pb dose if she was very anxious. None of the other things (DAP diffuser/DAP collar, thundershirt) were enough on their own for her severe anxiety, but they did help.
In her last year, she was so fearful that sometimes she was hard to control, as she'd try to get out of her crate if crated, or she'd just run through the house panting and anxious, and in those cases, if nothing worked, and I was really worried she'd hurt herself, I'd give her acepromazine. It's not a good drug for anxiety because apparently dogs still feel anxious, but simply can't do much about it, but in her case, I sometimes needed simply to get her to stop running around like crazy (Once she almost threw herself down the stairs--so it was that kind of thing I was trying to avoid). The acepromazine worked for her, and it did have one good effect: if she got used to taking it in certain circumstances (like vet trips, or during bad thunderstorms), then she would learn a calm behavior which she would then do even without the acepromazine: so even if I didn't give it to her, she'd lay calmly under a chair at the vet or in a corner during a thunderstorm. So while I understand why acepromazine isn't an ideal drug for anxiety, it worked quite well for us, and I can see that in some circumstances it might be useful.
Anyway, this is a lot of information that probably has little to do with your situation, but I offer it up in case there is anything useful there for you. I think you're right to try to work on it now, and I believe if you can find a good med for your boy, you're likely to be able to help modify his behavior and probably not even continue to have to use the med forever.
One of my friends has had struggles with an anxious dog too, and has been using a variety of methods, including meds and a DAP collar with success, and she has been writing about her journey on her blog, which may be of use as well. It is here:
http://myimperfectdog.wordpress.com/
good luck, and keep us posted on your progress!
As you already know, but bears repeating, the meds are only one component of a total training and management program ( like those old ads for BASF "We don't make the ________, we make the __________ better!"), just like the training tools you choose.
Sage's meds never made his behavior worse, only better- they give training a chance to work. He has been on them for years, and if I had not had such compunctions about drugs for dogs in the past, I would have put him on them sooner to eliminate having wasteful reps of fruitless results. ("We do the training, but its not working!")
Sage is never 'not himself' - well the clonidine makes him really mellow- and he suffers no side effects. I think the training curve w/o meds was a roadblock, but with the meds we got moving, made progress and then, kinda like taking one foot in front of the other- improved training, improved management/environment, improved training a little more, improved environment/expectations a little more. You have to improve all the facets as you go. Our progress is now slower, but still trickling along. I n fact Jeff and I were amazed this morning that the coonhounds started bawling next door and even though the window was open, Sage just grumbled on the 4th or 5th bawl and didn't flip out at all.
He may still flip out next time, but I had a rewardable response from him! This means he feels more comfortable in general with life, and he knows he can hear a dog and it might not be the end of the world
He is still, and will always be, Sage. His improvement continues and management is lifelong. His meds help, his training (what do we do when the shit hits the fan?) is well established now for the most common exposures he has to deal with, and I do everything to keep him within his coping range. He can't do a lot of things- he can't go hiking, he cant jog, he can't go along for a car ride- I had to let go of those goals for him. He can play frisbee in the (Solid fenced) yard, he can greet a human visitor with much love and minimal jumping. The most important thing I had to do to help him was to stop 'trying' so hard, accept his forgiveness of my imperfections and inabilities just as I forgive him his, and leave myself open to the dog he IS. Really SEE who Sage is. He's an intense guy, a reactive dog against many things, he really wants to be an only dog but he is willing to tolerate Juno and Reilly, and he adores us family members deeply with his whole heart, mind and body and he trusts and relies on the management and understanding I have built around him, and that my husband and daughter have also bought into fully. I have chosen only to try a tiny bit at reintegrating Sage with Matsu after their fight- because neither of them is really interested and I am not interested in the huge amount of work and stress on all of us with the best possible result being still untrustworthy.
So as you plan for Lobo- try your best to see what comes from him, and choose what is important when he says "I'd rather not". You already know he's a barky guy- he always will be chatty, its who he IS. But you can help him out a lot when he's barking from anxiety. The meds will help you help him and Control Unleashed or CLick to Calm classes are the ways to go to teach him- "this is what we do when (bad stimulus) happens."
Brad posted a good Dr Yin article recently on fb- that basically reminds us that theres stuff we have to get down as humans (timing, for one thing) before we go klutzing around IRL on a walk or even in training set-up scenarios with our actual dog. and I can say this because I am still a pretty klutzy trainer.
For Sage, I found a little better result from prozac than zoloft, BUT- its not a perfect comparison because many factors changed- we moved from a suburb to a rural home in a new state, my new vet didnt have experience with zoloft, but did with Prozac. And I became wiser during the prozac years than I was in the zoloft years: Fully forgiven myself, expecting much less from him (and myself), accepting him as he is. He might be progressing just the same on zoloft as he is now on prozac.
@WrylyBrindle Those are great reminders. Lobo's reaction to anything that he's unsure about will always be barking. I knew that when I got him (because buhund). And he'll always be alert and intense, and protective. I can accept all that. My minimal goals for him with training are to be able to walk with him around people without him flipping out about a stranger being around us. The stranger doesn't need to touch him, but I'd really like it if people could walk by us. If they can't get any closer than a few feet, I can live with that too. And, Lobo doesn't need to be friendly. He can be aloof. He can growl or give a bark or a "bruh" to let me know this person is making him uncomfortable and we need to move away. I don't need to be able to bring him to crowded places like the mall or an agility ring. All I need is for him to not uncontrollably bark aggressively at people who are around us.
Right now he goes from noticing to bark attack in a moment. If I'm lucky and the trigger is far away enough, I can get him away with a single bark, but I have to run away with him, and the anxiety is still there. I'm hoping that with meds or the herbal equivalent, it can give me a few seconds to connect with him and train him to deal with the trigger in a different way, and chip away at the association he's built of strangers being bad.
This reminds me, too, that I should have stressed that the reason we began with anti-anxieties for Bel was because I had a behavioralist come over to help me work with her aggression issues, and the behavioralist (who is very good) said that in Bel's case, we had to get the anxiety under control before we could attempt real behavior modification, because Bel was so far past her fear threshhold, there was no way to attempt training. (In 2+ hours, Bel refused to even approach for food, and mostly just barked or hid, trembling, from the behavioralist). I'm adding this because of course many things need to be taken into consideration, and probably the order of things depends on the dog: some dogs may need the anxiety meds just to begin behavior modification, and for others, it may be something that simply helps speed the process along. But it does have to be both (which I know Lobospam knows!) and maybe even with other things too!
While we were never able to get Bel to stop her aggression towards our other Shiba, being on meds did help her be slightly more accepting of visitors to our home (and she was actually friendly with some people again), and she was also able to go for rides (but not get out the car, her safe spot). And she was, at least, not aggressive with the other dogs.
eta: we cross posted, and yes, seems to me your goals for him are good! And you're right (from blog) that neutering probably won't do much anyway.
Also, I tried melatonin with Bel and it didn't do much, but it's always worth a try. My behavioralist said in her experience it either works right away or it's not going to work at all. It didn't seem to work for Bel, but a mixture of melatonin/theanine did seem to calm her very slightly, so perhaps a straight up theanine would have worked with her. Didn't know about the tart cherry juice so that's one to file away for future reference!
Nowadays he will tolerate people close by, but very little petting from most people. I pay attention to how people are reacting to him and only allow him to interact with calm people who seem to know how to act around a shy dog.
I have never used real meds with Conker. I did try rescue remedy, with little if any success. It works with Juneau for her noise-phobia, but did not do much for Conker's stranger fear.
In many cases the dog is stressed by the car ride itself, next the outside too, and on top that the adjustment to the physical adrenaline rush of moving from one environment to another. Therefore, you have to address training in each area for them to mentally adjust as part of a larger goal for casual outings.
What you have stated from the article is such a good point: .
Basically you do not want the dog to keep rehearsing the behaviors and getting into a neurological state it can't recover from. You could try Clomicalm. The medication can be reduced as training progresses and the body adjusts to being calm. It does not have to be long term. On the Shiba Forum there is someone using the clomicalm/clomiparine product with some success. I think it may have the least residual problems when you wish to take the dog off the meds. Certainly talk to your vet about it.
http://www.californiapetpharmacy.com/clomicalm-.html?gclid=CImKs_2oh7oCFcOj4AodJ30AiA
Can be ordered from 1800 pet meds with prescription.
I do know of a Norwegian Lundehund in our training center that has similar issues and they used behavior modification in conjunction with medication. It had gotten serious since the dog was charging at new people in the herding process and barked at "everything" non stop even in class.
I also have worked with a Shiba (a one year old at the time) that would bark at people 100 yards away as individuals were heading toward us or coming down driveways. When this particular dog matured it settled out a bit with behavior modification such as BAT. Counter conditioning helped a lot, well enough that medication was not needed.
In the home this dog still has some stranger danger fear behaviors when new company arrives, but it settles within 10 minutes or so. Outside of the home barking is pretty much gone. Her owner does a great job in making the dog feel safe and in doing so keeping the dog below threshold. http://www.suzanneclothier.com/blog/keeping-it-safe
I can't speak for your dog or case but here's a link on BAT author and trainer Grisha Stewart. (it's a pretty good program) http://www.amazon.com/Behavior-Adjustment-Training-Frustration-Aggression-ebook/dp/B005NIL5MQ
As far as owner anxiety, it's good you know yourself well enough to pinpoint one aspect. It's important try to keep your own stress low because dogs will feed off of human nervousness and mirror it. Take some mints/chew some gum and just calmly wait it out until the coast is clear rather than rush around trying to make a clean get away. Too much fumbling or dashing to get out of the car and it just tips the dog off there is an issue. Altering anticipation in any dog is a really important component of behavior modification.
Good luck….Keep us posted
Snf
I love BAT, I use it whenever we can pull off "stealth BAT". I'm in the BAT Yahoo! group and hope to do some setups soon.
It's an interesting position to be in, to try to prevent getting stressed about preventing stress, haha.
And if your dog is toy motivated, you could try something else I do with Oskar my Akita, who had a similar (but milder) issue with barking at strangers while walking. Oskar loves tiny squeaky toys. So I would squeak one as soon as I saw him begin to tense when we saw a stranger, and he'd go for the toy, and then I'd let him carry it while we walked past (or we'd just wait while the person passed). Oskar was so busy with his toy that he couldn't bark, and it had the added effect of taking away any intimidating factor--because suddenly he wasn't the giant barking dog, he was a big dog playing with a silly little toy.
Only works with very toy motivated dogs, of course, though there is that technique of making a toy super motivating (where you hide it and act like it is the most exciting thing ever, til the dog thinks so too, and then you only use that toy for certain circumstances.....)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iyjdBKYRGY&feature=share&list=UUKQCCGM0Y-KiOojUtlInJ9w
And here's the blog post that lead me to the video:
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/drayton-michaels/leash-reactivity-cognition-and-memory