ADN test for kai ken

sylvieTRD

Hi,

I want to test Hanako genes to know if she'll give me puppies with fawn colors but I don't know what locus I must test ? Locus E or K ? 1 brother and 1 sister have fawn color and parents are brindle.
What do you think about ? Thanks !!

ayk

The fawns may actually be creams/whites. If their whiskers are black, they are fawn and you would need a K test.

If their whiskers are red/cream/white, they are cream/whites and you would need a E test.

Based on what I've seen of the Kai in the U.S., I would bet on the E test if I didn't know the whisker colors.

Trzcina

I think (I'm not sure, don't trust what I saw until someone with more experience comes in) that cream/fawn Kai Ken are ee yellow. Which would then likely mean that testing the E locus would be the most effective in determining whether your Kai carries for this color.

If I remember my dog color genetics right, ee yellow exists because it disables eumelanin expression in the coat, leaving only the non-black pheomelanin to be expressed (which is the pigment that accounts for the various colors of red within the coat of even a brindle Kai--just the brindles also can express eumelanin, and therefore there is black in their coats).

People who know more than me: Did I guess correctly? :P

PoetikDragon

Whether you need E Locus or K Locus test depends on whether "fawn" is actually recessive red (white/cream) or sable (red/sesame). In both cases the gene you are looking for is recessive and your dog could be a carrier.

Black whiskers is one way to tell the two types of red dogs apart. However, any black hairs will count, not just whiskers. The presence of black hairs proves she is sable, but the lack of black hairs does not prove she is recessive red.

I would order an E Locus test on one of her siblings or parents, who you know are carriers of the gene, and based on the result of that test, decide whether to get E Locus or K Locus for your dog. However, that option may not be available to you. In that case, I'd do both K Locus and E Locus on your dog. Either way you need two tests to be certain.

If you want to save some money and go with probabilities, here's the math:

If her parents are both brindle but produced fawn offspring, then both parents are carriers. Each puppy had a 25% chance to be fawn, 50% chance to be a carrier, and 25% chance to be clear . You know your bitch is not fawn, which means she could only be a carrier or clear. She has a 67% chance to be a carrier (50 out of 75) and a 33% chance to be clear (25 out of 75).

An expedient option to determine if she is a carrier would be to breed her to another fawn Kai. You have to be prepared to place any fawn puppies which result, but test breedings are less fallible than DNA testing. All of the puppies will be carriers and if your bitch is a carrier, odds are 50% of the puppies will be fawn.

EDIT: Keeping a carrier in your breeding program, even if only bred to other clear dogs, can prove a hassle in the long run. If the recessive gene has no benefit whatsoever in its heterozygous expression, I would cull the carriers from breeding. Otherwise, you need to test each stud she is bred to, and with each generation you will continue to need to do DNA testing or test matings to determine which of the resulting offspring are also carriers. It will really add up over time. If you are lucky, you can get a non-carrier from the first breeding and then continue forward with that dog instead.

tjbart17

I'm not sure how much this test costs. I would take it back to your pedigree and see what has been produced before to determine likelihood and reduce it by choosing the right male. I have a Classy male and I can tell you that he has the white gene on one side heavily. Mom's side doesn't. Three litters didn't produce any creams. Marion knows her lines she can help you with this.

ayk

Just a FYI on the approximate cost of the coat color tests:

VetGen : $55 for "e" test, $55 for "k" test.


UC Davis : $45 per animal first test
$65 per animal two tests same animal

MirkaM

If I remember right sylvieTRD Rocky is your puppy's grandfather? Rocky has produced creams twice out of two differant females. And Rocky's mother is Mavis brother to Maverick. And Mavis also comes from the mom's side. Am I correct?

PoetikDragon

@tjbart17 The tests are $50-$60 each depending on the organization, etc.

@tjbart17 @MirkaM No more can be determined from the pedigree than what I already stated. The dog has a 67% chance to be a carrier. Only a DNA test or breeding to a fawn would reveal more.

Losech

I think eliminating a member of a rare breed from the breeding population based on carrying a color is dumb. That's one way how you lose genetic diversity and increase inbreeding. There are far worse things a dog could carry than a color, and that's what the focus should be on.
That's my opinion anyways.

PoetikDragon

Notice I didn't say eliminate right now, I said try to get a non-carrier from the dog to move forward with to avoid the hassle of testing for carriers in every generation. You don't gain much from breeding the same bitch over and over again anyway, and if you're doing it right, the offspring of a dog should always be better than the parent. Otherwise, you're just standing still -- or worse, going backwards.

tjbart17

@poeticdragon I regret to have to say this to you but you're incorrect on your stats. I know these lines better than you. My Koda is related to her dog. I also know that Marion knows her lines by heart. Marion is the best resource for this question.

MirkaM

But Tara is the whole another story will Marian ever answer :P . When we are talking dog which she hasn't bred...

ayk

There's not much more info that Marian could provide that isn't already known based on the siblings. DNA test for "e" would add more info anout the dog itself.

tjbart17

@ayk you would be surprised what she knows.

tjbart17

With that said I would be asking health questions and not color questions.

PoetikDragon

The "lines" and other relatives mean nothing. The littermates which are fawn reveal the only pertinent information -- that both parents of the dog in question are carriers. From that you can do a punnet square, and eliminating the possibility of fawn (because the dog is visibly brindle) arrive at the probabilities I already stated. It doesn't matter what the other relatives are or how often they have or have not thrown fawn puppies. The odds to pass on the recessive gene remain constant, regardless what has happened in the past. (Just like if you flip a coin 10 times and it comes up heads every time, while statistically strange, it still has a 50% chance to be tails on the next flip.)

tjbart17

Ok.....whatever you say. @poeticdragon

I'd still call Marian and rely on her expertise with this one. She knows her lines better than anyone here. You'll be amazed at how she can non-statistically guess what pairings will breed.

sylvieTRD

Thank you for yours answers !
@MirkaM : yes, Hanako's grandfather is mijikai's Piece of the rock ( rocky I suppose )
This is pedigree:
father Onyx : mijikai's Fujimi kuroï tenshi
CH. mijikai's Piece of the rock ( CH. minimeadow Kilo X walnut Valley's mavis o'mm)
X CH. Pr'royals thunderstorm of mijikaî (CH. mijikai's Pimp of the nation X CH. mijikai's Mad maid marian)
Mother Yashii : Yasei no kokoro no yasashii takara des Trésors de l'Eden
classy 's kokusai taki hoshi ( minimeadow Classy poshi tomo X minimeadow 's classy tora odori)
X classy Daiichi odori no inochi ( classy's Daiichi aka tora X classy's Suki no inochi)

So in France, ADN colortests cost 65euros for locus E, (70 euros for locus E+B), and 65 euro for locus K.

ayk

Please let us know what you find out. I can't remember hearing about anybody coat-color testing a Kai.