[SPLIT THREAD] Tosa, NIPPO, and Tosa history
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    Posts: 2947
    Does NIPPO include the Tosa?
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  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    No, NIPPO doesn't include the Tosa. Though I understand the temptation to include the Tosa. (Deeper pockets.)
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 2215
    @ayk, Damn old people and their disposable income:-)

    Jesse
    Jesse Pelayo

  • kimputaikimputai
    Posts: 245
    @crimson.........that Japanese dogs are more than the Akita and Shiba.

    If you know the Tosa, you certainly would respect the breed.
    Tosa in Japan is not as big as in the West. Most lightweights are 35-45 kilo, so smaller as an Akita. Some call the Tosa the garbage dog of Japan, because of Western influence...but, after restoring the Akita after ww2, I can not say the Akita is still a pure bred Japanese dog......not to mention the AA....with all respect, just a big boned heavy look a like....the AA will never ever get 10 % of the Akita history.....just pedigrees and showresults...and respect you have to earn......and the Japanese Akita made history.
    Post edited by kimputai at 2013-07-29 05:20:29
  • Hinata23Hinata23
    Posts: 1444
    @kimputai We know of the Tosa. But it's not a native Japanese breed like the other 6. It's a western breed brought over and mixed with some NK.
  • kimputaikimputai
    Posts: 245
    @hinata..........We know of the Tosa. But it's not a native Japanese breed like the other 6. It's a western breed brought over and mixed with some NK.

    Do share that experience please. The foundation dog of the Tosa is the Shikoku.
    The development of the Tosa through the decades has made an end to the fighting history of the Akita. I wonder if the Akita was still an original fighting and hunting dog, how popular the breed would be nowadays.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    It may be a breed created in Japan, @kimputai, but the Tosa is not included in NIPPO, unfortunately. I think Jesse's ( @CrimsonO2 ) idea was to get a NIPPO judge over to the USA for a Nihon Ken show - a NIPPO judge wouldn't know how to judge a Tosa, ya know?
  • kimputaikimputai
    Posts: 245
    Even the JKC doesn t see the Tosa as a pure bred Japanese dog,on the other side the breed is respected in Japan as fighting dog. The JKC gave the breed a standard as a guard and watch dog when it became popular in the West. Dogfighting in the West isn t civilezed, but we use the history of the Japanese breeds when we feel it s right. Doesn t mean I am a fan of dogfighting in any way,.when the Japanes visited my house to film my dog, they had respect for the breed. because of the history the Tosa made in Japan
    Hell, now I have 2 and they want to visit me again in september.... My point is, with all respect, Akita has been restored after ww2 with GSD and whatever breed. Is it still a purebred Japanese dog?
    @brad would it make any difference for the Tosa if it was a Nippo dog?
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 2215
    @kimputai, I don't think anyone is besmirching the Tosa in its characteristics, history, or quality as a breed borne from Japan. However, with regards to the purpose of furthering the breed here, NIPPO is the tie that binds legitimacy to the breed from Japan to the U.S. And educating North Americans about the existence and "quality" of the breed in the U.S. is one of the first steps in our preservation efforts of the Nihon Ken.

    I envision getting a club chartered with NIPPO to be hard enough. I'm not inclined to add another degree of difficulty by trying to get Tosa to be recognized by NIPPO from this side of the pond. If/when NIPPO recognizes Tosa, I'm sure there'll be talk about the logistics of incorporating them in a NIPPO sanctioned show on U.S. soil, but let's get a NIPPO sanctioned show with a non-Shiba NIPPO judge in the U.S. that's not just Shiba and Akita. :-)

    Jesse
    Jesse Pelayo

  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    @kimputai - I split the Tosa conversation off and moved it to a new thread so that the other thread can continue on the topic @CrimsonO2 intended it to be...

    As for Tosa and NIPPO, I don't think being recognized by NIPPO would help the Tosa breed. I actually think the Tosa's lack of pedigrees and openness to out-crossing gives it a huge edge over most "pure" breeds.

    As for the Akita, I don't think you can really compare the mixing of the Akita during its reconstruction with the mixing of the Tosa because the Tosa is still very much mixed today in Japan. If it came down to a argument over "purity" I think the Tosa (in Japan) would lose that battle every time since there are no pedigrees on tosa and mixing still happens today.
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1624
    As Brad said, the breed is an evolving breed, as it's bred for function and not a standard.
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    I would sure love to have a agile Tosa as a catch dog though.
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  • hotarujishinhotarujishin
    Posts: 152
    I thought this might interest some concerning diversity and small populations: http://www.dogenes.com/essays/pgbreed.html
    Britain Hill
    Fenikkusu and Kalitan
  • hotarujishinhotarujishin
    Posts: 152
    I thought this might interest some concerning diversity and small populations: http://www.dogenes.com/essays/pgbreed.html
    and another:
    http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/what-population-genetics-can-tell-us-about-a-breed.html

    Sorry I posted twice.
    Britain Hill
    Fenikkusu and Kalitan
    Post edited by hotarujishin at 2013-07-30 14:22:25
  • kimputaikimputai
    Posts: 245
    @theWalrus EVERY breed HAD a function. Now breeds still get the same function just by looking as the standard. Most breeds stopped evolving a long time ago.
  • kimputaikimputai
    Posts: 245
    The only thing that hasn t stopped evolving, is the huge number of weak dogs and the huge amount of diseases a dog has to suffer from nowadays.
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    I think Shigeru was just being tactful.

    Tosas are still being fought in Japan, even the females during non-tournament informal matches, and fighting dogs of all sorts of breeds are still being mixed into the gene pool in the quest to find the ultimate fighting dog.

    I don't remember the specific details anymore, but GR. CH. fighting pitbulls, who were fought underground via Cajun rules in the U.S., were purchased and brought to Japan for major money. Probably fought too. I think that was in the 1990's. Then other breeds including some dogs from Pakistan/India were tried. That's why people have observed pinto Tosas in tournaments.

    Unfortunately, the Jindo breed was getting bandied around among the dog fighters during this time so I came across this info while websearching for Jindo info.
  • kimputaikimputai
    Posts: 245
    @AYK I know a few things about the history of the breed. Mill s Buster was a famous pitbull in Japan.......The Tosa already has a standard, and different colours are not so unknown in Japan. It looks weird to us in the West, because we have a standard that says, fawn, black and brindle. Untill a few years ago we saw the first pictures of a white and multi colored Tosa, and that s the difference between East and West. We look at colors, Japanese look at performance. Most multi colored dogs are in Korea, btw. And there is a huge difference between Japanese rules and Cajun rules. My point is, if the Japanese still had the intention to create the ultimate fighting breed, take a Tosa, a Dogo, a Kangal and Tibetan Mastiff, dock the tail and crop the ears, and maybe they will have the ultimate fighting dog. If a breed is still evolving, as Shigeru said, maybe we will see a whole different Tosa in a few years with a brand new standard.
    Fighting with female Tosa s? I know they are tested for temperament, a breeder who is really in to a Tosa spirit, will never let his females fight.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    @kimputai - So do you disagree that the breed is evolving in Japan? I'm confused by your posts.

    Does the fighting Tosa in Japan have a written standard since they have no registration, @TheWalrus?

    I know the JKC has a standard for the Tosa (the FCI standard), but as I understand it those are mostly show-line Tosa and not active fighting dogs.
  • kimputaikimputai
    Posts: 245
    @brad....the first standard from the JKC to the FCI, the Tosa was named a fighting dog.
    If the goal is to create the ultimate fighting dog, the Tosa already would be mixed with other breed, like Boerboel, Dogo or Kangal.......The pitbull, like ayk mentioned, was already in the breed from the beginning. Boston Bull, later in the APBT.
    I am not saying that the breed is still evolving in Japan, I don t know that. Most fighting associations fight Tosa and APBT.
    Post edited by kimputai at 2013-08-15 11:50:08
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    I think the misunderstanding here is that you're saying that the mixings are all finished and done in the past.

    I do not believe that is the case. If there are individual dogs or breeds that appear on the Japanese's radar as good fighters, then they'll be purchased, tested, and experimentally bred in.

    The only hesitancy in even *more* mixings is having to breed out again the growling during fights.

  • kimputaikimputai
    Posts: 245
    @ayk.........the mixings in the past made the Tosa as the breed we know now in the West. And by that look, it became really popular in the West. Adding different blood of other breeds will lead to a different look in the end. So, if that is the case, the dog should have a totally new standard. Now you see more pitbull looking Tosa s and others look like a well trained Ridgeback. Some of them look like boxers also.
    But, I have seen longhaired Bullmastiffs and black and white Rotties to.
  • kimputaikimputai
    Posts: 245
    You see a lot of black and tan Tosa s, even tri color in Europe. According to the FCI standard it is not a Tosa.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    @kimputai - It's my opinion that, at least with working dogs, function should trump looks. If dogs produced by the Tosa clubs, from including a different breeds, serve the same function, but look different, then they are still Tosa Inu.

    Like the LGD of old, there was a huge range in the look of the dogs, but if produced by the same region/culture they were still considered members of the same race of LGD.

    A standard is a modern invention created by kennel clubs, breed clubs, and show fancey. There were no breed standards when most of the working dogs of today were being created.
  • kimputaikimputai
    Posts: 245
    @brad....a standard for a dog is given by the country of origin, the JKC. The standard has only been changed 3 times. From fighting dog in the 70-80 s, later on it became watchdog and now just housepet. In my opinion, the Tosa breed never got a fair chance.
    When the breed left it s land of origin, the Japanese knew that dogfighting isn t legal in the West so they gave the dog just another standard. And it changed from fighting dog to housedog. That s a huge difference. But again, it is always easy to use the word fighting dog when a Tosa shows some agression. We use the history as we like it.
    I agree that function should trump looks. But the Tosa clubs in Japan are not the friendly socializing coffe drinking societies, if the dog is purple and it can perform, it s a Tosa.

    @ayk.....not only the growling is the problem. Adding other breeds will also change the fighting style of the dog, according to the traditional rules ............not using the traditional rules it is just a dogfight.

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