@cmpteki - I will echo Beth, why is he being rehomed?
@cezieg IMO health is important and should always come first, however, if you're not going to breed for quality (what you call "show factor") and improvement of breed traits, then the whole point of purebred dog breeding has been lost. Might as well just breed healthy working mutts. (Nothing wrong with that!)
@cezieg I don't disagree with you, but I feel the point I was trying to make was lost. I shall restate it more simply: Health and conformation should not come at the sacrifice of the other. One should not breed a dog with "messed up physique" as you put it, nor should one breed a dog that deviates from the breed standard. When I refer to quality I mean the basic traits that define the breed, not all the stuff that makes a dog win titles and accolades. Moreover, every breeding decision should be made to improve upon the last generation in some respect, without losing what you have already gained. On that note, one cannot simply "reselect for coat in a few generations" if you've already bred it out of the (available) population. Once its gone, its gone forever. So you do what you can to keep desirable traits in the gene pool.
Yup, its super complex.
So it would seem a good match to breed out the health issues with less coat emphasis to get things fixed structurally, then bring in coat-exact imports to get that coat back up to Standard.
At least had I imported, I could've chalked it up to "Oh, well that's the risk when you import."
@violet_in_seville I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't making light of Fate's condition, but still addressing the original topic. The owners of Shogun's puppies knew the risks of buying a pup with underaged parent(s) without health clearances. The situation hasn't changed in any way since Shogun's later diagnosis; in fact, we don't even know how any of the pups' hips are.
@twobirds - you may also want to inquire about the fate of any previous litters from the dam. Hopefully, if this was a "test" litter to see what sort of puppies Shogun might produce, the dam should have excellent ratings and her previous litters be free of issues.
Edgewood said:@cezieg You seem to have a very bad taste in your mouth to North American breeders (not US, because 2 of the breeders are in Canada) . You are welcome to import a Hokka/Shikoku from Japan, but most likely there will not be health checks done on the parents/offspring in Japan. The breeders in North America, and some in Europe, are actually doing the health checks on shikoku and learning the issues that they have.
@cezieg You seem to have a very bad taste in your mouth to North American breeders (not US, because 2 of the breeders are in Canada) . You are welcome to import a Hokka/Shikoku from Japan, but most likely there will not be health checks done on the parents/offspring in Japan. The breeders in North America, and some in Europe, are actually doing the health checks on shikoku and learning the issues that they have.
---but do you have any insight to offer about why they haven't embraced it wholesale on an embracing technology (which it has been my impression that the Japanese are very willing to do) or a sometimes these things aren't obvious/structure can't tell you that sort of level? It's a part of the culture that I don't understand and so I am curious about whatever insight can be offered.As for my own two cents on the Shikoku, I know this might be unpopular but given that the population seems to be so small and there's a worry about losing diversity if you cut dogs with health problems, it seems to me that the breed needs to be outcrossed to preserve it and really get it back on track. I know that doing that could make it even harder to get back to standard than using dogs with poor conformation and good health, but frankly it seems like the breed is in pretty sorry shape given the numbers overall and I just can't abide the idea of breeding dogs with health problems. If that's looking like a problem, to me you preserve diversity with an outcross rather than risking bringing puppies into the world that are unhealthy. I place trying to have the healthiest puppies possible over keeping the Shikoku pure Shikoku.
You mentioned that dogs exported to Europe are tested (and more expensive because of it). Interesting that the Europeans are more willing to make that kind of deal. Also interesting that with enough money, the kennels will do what is necessary to please the "picky foreigners" even if they find it offensive! Has that requirement made any difference in the quality of European Shikokus vs North America?
Probably due to their popularity Shiba and Akita kennels overseas seem to be more professional, with kennel set ups, and they have no qualms about importing adult dogs from Japan that have been kenneled their entire lives.
As unpalatable as it is to some folks, I think the medium sized NK like the Shikoku needs to be exposed to "dog people" rather than the "public". Meaning, letting dog show people see them and consider them.
From what I've heard, in Europe the shiba is in a pretty sorry state compared to the US. Many are of poor show quality with bad form and missing teeth, and I think they do have their share of health issues. They are trying what they can to improve their breeding stock, while not also adding in more problems. Heck, some of the US breeders are even being asked and offered lots of money to send over some pups.
Probably due to their popularity Shiba and Akita kennels overseas seem to be more professional, with kennel set ups, and they have no qualms about importing adult dogs from Japan that have been kenneled their entire lives. Most all of the parties that have contacted me up to this point regarding Shikoku are looking to keep their dogs in a pet environment, and so choose puppies over unsocialized adults. Because of the demand for the Shiba and Akita, and lack of knowledge about them and the situation in Japan at the time they first started becoming popular, a lot of low quality dogs were (and are) unloaded overseas. It became a very monetized environment, which is why the market for Shiba/Akita going overseas is so much higher than for the medium sized breeds.In backlash to the decline in quality and the prevalent health issues, importers, especially from northern Europe, are starting to ask for testing on hips/elbows, before importing Shiba/Akita.
How would someone go about importing a dog that has different bloodlines from all of the NA breeders? I would really like to do that. :)
https://sphotos-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/999979_562062560515666_163564710_n.jpgThanks Kris, I wasn't sure if there was anything more I could do on my end than just have Shigeru do the leg work. I feel like that would be lazy on my part. :-<
How would someone go about importing a dog that has different bloodlines from all of the NA breeders? I would really like to do that. I'm a little hesitant to import an adult because I would have no idea how his temperament would be and I would be bringing him in to be part of the family. I would want him to be more than a "breeder."
It is hard unless you read Japanese. The pedigree from NIPPO was in Japanese and Shigeru and Yano-san helped determine how related it was further back as well as close up. They could go and look at the pedigrees on file in the NIPPO office. And even then, Shigeru did a "translation" of the names from Japanese to English, but some of the Kanji can be translated different ways, so the names on some dogs were slighltly different when I received the translated JKC pedigree (along with the Kanji NIPPO pedigree). Shigeru warned me that might happen. So again, not so easy to do, at least for me, with no Japanese language skills.
@NotoriousScrat - A healthy population is a diverse population. You cannot have a healthy population w/o diversity...Yes, the OFA can be used to give a breeder more information, but there are much better tools out there for gaining data. Also, OFA is useful for one health issues - there are millions of health issues. In dogdom the OFA has been the primary focus for whether a breeders does "health checks" or not, which pushes the community's eye away from more important health issues like hearts, seizures, bloat, and... diversity (and extinction)!Remember, hips can be fixed, a neurologic issue, or a bad heart, cannot (usually).
And any which way, it is almost damned if you damned if you don't. As you can see on this thread, there are those vilifying the use of Shogun and others who say he should have been kept in the population because it is so small. It is a sad situation and I know I try to do the best that I can, but certainly it will not please everyone.
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