Shiba + Shikoku?
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 62
    Hi guys! I don't normally post here, as I often lurk, but I've been on the prowl lately for some additional information... My partner and I felt that in a year or two, having an additional "family" member to our household would be ideal -- especially one from the Nihon Ken group. We've been leaning more towards a Shikoku, but also felt a Kai Ken would be great, too.

    Would anyone mind providing information and experiences for owning a Shikoku and/or Kai Ken? Even better with Shibas AND Shikoku/Kai Ken together! My Shiba, Sagan, is generally an outgoing, feisty dude who loves the presence of other dogs and people. We're quite active, as we like hiking every week and general outdoorsy activities, including classes, and showing him off in downtown Seattle. ;-) Not to mention lure coursing coming up this summer!
  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    Posts: 1175
    I am sure that multiple others will chime in about having a shikoku and a shiba. But it all depends, especially on the type of shiba you have and how that shiba likes to play.

    Some said they didn't have issues adding a shikoku, but others have said that their shibas did NOT appreciate the in your face attitude and play style that shikokus have.

    My personal take is that shikoku really only play well with other dogs that have their type of rough and tumble play style. I own 3 shikoku and they really like each other and love playing together. But it is a ton of biting, pulling each others skin, chest and body slamming, general provocativeness towards the other dog.

    Would your shiba like this type of play?
    Post edited by Edgewood at 2013-04-14 20:43:20
  • Hinata23Hinata23
    Posts: 1444
    I agree... A Shiba and Shikoku sound like a bad mix to me. There are some members that have both and they seem to do just fine. I think the sex of the dogs from each breed has something to it, as well. For example: a male Shiba and female Shikoku would probably work better than 2 females or a female Shiba and a male Shikoku. I don't know if that makes any sense.

    I have a Kai and Shikoku and they are perfect together. My male Kai is not reactive and brushes off rude dogs. Like Edgewood's 3 Shikoku, they play really rough and really love it lol. Not sure if your Shiba will get bothered by that.
  • ttddinhttddinh
    Posts: 1990
    I have an older female shiba and added a younger male Shikoku to the pack. They LOVE one another! Kaiju gets in Bea's face but she puts him in his place. Though, given their play style, a shikoku MAY be a bit much for a shiba. However, each case is different!
  • Hinata23Hinata23
    Posts: 1444
    @ttddinh That's right! I had totally forgotten you had a shiba! I was think of Beth with Tetsu and Miyu.
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    I think Conker would love a Shikoku buddy. Most dogs won't play with him 'cause he's a little monster!

    Anywho, I think it largely depends on the individual dogs and their personalities and play preferences.
    image
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3965
    It really depends on the individual dogs, and how tolerant the shiba can be.

    When I first got Miyu, Tetsu hated her with a vengeance. Both are very headstrong and neither would tolerate being growled at (often escalating it by growling themselves). Tetsu didn't like having his personal space invaded, and Miyu didn't seem to understand his signals or she didn't care. It really helped having Tikaani around, not only did he offer an outlet for Miyu's energy, but he also was very tolerable of her attitude and he would intervene if there was any tension about to build. It took a good 6 months of restricted interactions and hard work before we were able to start feeling comfortable with Tetsu and Miyu being together. Took a good year for the two of them to actually play together, which was basically both of them running in circles trying to be the one getting chased.

    From what I've heard though, a kai would make a better companion for a shiba than a shikoku would. Kai seem to have better dog social skills and respect when a shiba desires space. So if you think your shiba can tolerate rudeness and another hardheaded dog, or you're willing to put in the work of having them get along, then you could get away with getting a shikoku. But if you think that kind of match wouldn't work, a kai may be more suited.

    If you haven't yet, try meeting representatives from both breeds in person and get a taste of what they are like.
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  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 261
    I'm am/feeling in the exact same boat as @Rikka -- eager to hear the experiences of adding a Shikoku.
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 2206
    The beginning years can be tough, but despite all their differences, a Shiba and Shikoku can learn to co-exist peacefully and actually help balance each other out.

    An overly in-your-face Shikoku puppy tells you that you need to tire your Shikoku out more mentally and physically to 1.) keep them happy and 2.) keep them well-adjusted to the balance that your Shiba is accustomed to in the house.

    BTW, my Shiba is a shy reactive dog and he has, on more than one occasion, ventured outside of his comfort zone because my Shikoku girl has pushed him to tolerate things more (new sights/smells, new people, physical contact, etc.)

    image
    Jesse Pelayo

    Post edited by CrimsonO2 at 2013-04-14 23:29:20
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12210
    I think a shiba and a shikoku together is a pretty horrible idea. LOL
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3421
    I would go for a Kai and Shiba, as long as you make it an opposite sex pair. My female Shibas loved their Kai boy Akuma, and he them, but the Shiba boy and Kai boy started getting testy with one another when the Kai hit sexual maturity. He was pretty respectful of the Shiba snarking, and they both appreciated being given lots of space. With any of these breeds, they can be hardheaded and "mine-sy" about resources, and peculiar about space. It can take a lot of management sometimes regardless of breeds, but I would suggest another Shiba, or a Kai female if you are really wanting to stay in the NK family.
    info@hokkaidoken.org
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  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    I think a shiba and a kai is a better idea than a shiba and a shikoku. I had a shiba and a shikoku and they definitely got off on the wrong foot. Once they got used to each other, Rakka (shikoku) would run up to Tojo (shiba) and spazz at him, at which point, Tojo would just stand still as a statue and stoic until Rakka gave up and went away. Sure, they weren't fighting, but the ideal situation would be for them to actually play together and enjoy each other's company. They did meet as adults, though, so if one of them had been a puppy it probably would have gone much smoother.

    But, yes, it depends on the individuals. Sounds like the shiba is pretty cool with other dogs, so I would try to get a shikoku that's not a total prick. Some are bigger jerks than others.

    From what I can tell, a kai will get along with most dogs. My kai gets along better with Rakka than any other dog ever has and she's better off for it.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
    image
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1743
    My Shikoku loves Shibas.

    Unfortunately, TK shows affection like a lovestruck and socially awkward ten year old boy.

    He tugs on tails and body slams and likes to chase them around. No Shiba he's met will tolerate his brand of bullshit. One does much better with him than the rest, but still gets overwhelmed and it always ends in me interfering with "play time" to give the poor guy some space.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    Posts: 1175
    Space....shikoku have no inkling of what "my space" and "your space" are! To a shikoku, all space is "their space". They are always in another dogs face, pressing them to play, even if the other doesn't want too. I think it is innate to shikoku, so that is why they do well with other dogs that play like them.

    Like @Calia said, I do think Siberians play well with shikoku because they have a somewhat similar play style (and are also more tolerant in general). And on my n=3, they play well together too, even the 2 females, who actually love each other. Though I will admit that my one female is only 6 months old, so we will see what it is like when she matures.
  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 3184
    shikoku have no inkling of what "my space" and "your space" are! To a shikoku, all space is "their space".


    and this is one big reason why I have kai kens- Sage would not tolerate a housemate like this (actually, Reilly wouldn't either), or would be miserable trying to if I asked him to, and I dont want to spend that much of my time with my dogs joysticking their interactions. Build a pack that can flow, that gets each other.
    photo Picture 3_zps4y5sotml.png Kai to the Core!
  • So, I get the idea that Shikoku can be too pushy in terms wanting a Shiba's attention (too hardheaded dogs wanting opposite things does seem like a problem), but I'm confused about the play style thing. Is there something that I'm missing? I would (and it seems to be the general opinion on the Shiba side as well) generally regard Shibas as very rough players, so it seems as though in that regard Shibas and Shikoku would get along quite well. Body slams, chasing, being chased, biting ears, necks, etc. are all ways that my Shiba likes to play, and he doesn't really get upset if he gets bowled over or knocked down either. He plays very well with dogs who are big and also rough players, like huskies, and it was my impression that my Shiba was pretty typical in this way. Is there something particular about the Shikoku rough playstyle that generally doesn't mesh with Shibas?
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3965
    Before Miyu, I really didn't know or understand how respectful Tikaani was to Tetsu. When they played together they wrestled hard and rough, and I figured that it would be the same between Tetsu and Miyu. But Tikaani would handicap himself, flipping to the ground so Tetsu can get on top, and when Tetsu had enough Tikaani would go off and find something else to do.

    Miyu would sometimes handicap and be gentle, but she was so persistent and didn't take 'no' for an answer that it really pushed on Tetsu's buttons. So while Tetsu did try to rough house with Miyu, when he was done she wanted to keep going. She wouldn't stop pestering him until a) we separated them b) Tikaani happened to be around and wanted to play or c) Tetsu gave a strong correction to get her to back off (he'd basically grab her cheek and growl, to which she'd jump back and grumble before wreaking havoc elsewhere).

    Miyu was also the type where if she does it to you then it's alright, but if you do it to her then it's not alright. So in her mind it was alright if she dive-bombed a sleeping Tikaani, but if Tikaani dive-bombed her while she slept she would get snarky about it. Tikaani can handle her snarkiness as she growls and nips at him, he just lifts his head up and waits it out, to which she trots off in a huff. Tetsu on the other hand didn't like dealing with snarkiness, so if she got snarky with him it could escalate into an argument. But overall, Miyu has somewhat learned the boundaries of both boys and has learned to not bug Tetsu so much. Though, I don't think Miyu and Tetsu would be getting along as well as they are if Miyu didn't have Tikaani for an outlet.

    Edit to add that I also want to state that all 3 do get along incredibly well now, it just took a lot more work to get to this point than it would have if Miyu was of a breed that was more dog savvy.
    image
    Post edited by Calia at 2013-04-15 09:53:30
  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    Posts: 1175
    I cannot answer it for your shiba per se, but here are some videos of how my shikoku play.







    I have many more videos of them playing on my youtube channel if you want to watch (EdgewoodMeadow)

    And @WrylyBrindle, I don't have to "manage" interactions in my pack of 3, because they all get along super. But they all have similar personalities and play styles, so they don't take offense. If they didn't, then I would have to manage the interactions.
    Post edited by Edgewood at 2013-04-15 09:50:30
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3421
    Shibas do like to play rough, when they are youngsters especially, but on their terms, and this play dramatically tapers with age. As does their tolerance for bullshit and any perceived "rude" behavior. It's my impression Shikoku don't heed "no" signals from other dogs very well, are tenacious and relentless when they want something, and that would send a Shiba over the top.

    Kai seem to be way more respectful of the space thing and mine was never "in your face" with play, but he did tease the Shibas with some paw slaps and carefully calculated goosings, and enjoyed darting away in anticipation of a snark. It was like a very special Kai courting dance.

    He was pretty careful not to touch them a lot, at least not until he had enticed them to play. He always was anticipating a snark from them during play, so he definitly had Shibas figured out, and he would just brush it off and stay out of reach no problem especially as he was faster then they were.

    Akuma was masterful at coaxing a shy, dog aggressive, reactive, or otherwise reluctant Shiba into full on play, male or female. I mean, he could sell ice to Eskimos in that regard, and I think that is a trait that is fairly typical of Kai, at least from Brad and Jens breedings.
    info@hokkaidoken.org
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  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1743
    @Edgewood - Ah! I love Kuma. :) He's like a super-gentle TK... which might be saying something. I love his little tail-nom on Sachi in the last video.


    You know, I find that TK plays REALLY well with my LGD breed foster dogs. Better than with any other dog he's played with outside of this one Greyhound who is one of his BEST friends (odd match - but whatever). I think they're much more patient with him than the majority of dogs we meet.

    Next time we see Griffin (a Shiba TK has the best relationship with), I'll take a video. Griffin is one of the BEST Shibas I know. He's incredibly well behaved and tolerates a lot of BS from other dogs and he'll play with TK for a short while, but it always ends with Griffin getting overwhelmed by TK's play style.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 2206
    I guess the best thing to do here would be to have @Rikka and @GrayJJ post some videos of their Shiba at play and we can chime in here to better help them assess whether a Shikoku would fit with their Shibas personality. Shikoku being a more scarce breed, I find the ones I meet to all have that same tenacity (won't take "no" for an answer) when they start something.

    Jesse
    Jesse Pelayo

  • Space....shikoku have no inkling of what "my space" and "your space" are! To a shikoku, all space is "their space".

    Truer words have never been spoken. My shikoku violates all space. She is in the face of my dogs, my cats, my husband, my guests. The only person who's space she respects is mine. And I think that is only because I established that boundary very early in her life, and remained consistent.
    The whole reason I still crate my dogs is because Miko doesn't know when to quit, and my other dogs look to me and my husband to run interference, and when we aren't home there is no one to protect them from her shenanigans.
    This is not to discourage you from having a shikoku if you really want one. When we had a Shiba, he really loved Miko. And truth be told Miko is one of the most charming dogs I have known. She even has enough charisma to offset her douchebaggery.
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  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 3184
    @Edgewood- sure, you don't have to, but I would have waaaay more management and interference-running than I would enjoy if I asked Sage to live with a shikoku. :) I love Miko, and Miyu, but --that's just me, not my big ol' reactive lug-a-dug! He likes Rei-Rei and the kai kousins just great.
    photo Picture 3_zps4y5sotml.png Kai to the Core!
    Post edited by WrylyBrindle at 2013-04-15 13:02:12
  • First, just seconding what Lindsay said about Shibas. Older Adult Shibas still play rough, but not nearly as much as young Shibas, and they very much only want it on their terms. When I think about my adult Shibas (7 & 9) they are sometimes unrecognizable from what people talk about with their young Shibas, because they really do change quite a bit as they mature.

    My Kai fits in wonderfully with all the dogs in the household. He does play rough, and can be in your face (more with people than with dogs even), but he is very good at reading the other dogs, and he backs off appropriately. He has superb dog skills. We've had a few conflict with him and the AA, both in the very beginning and after he hit maturity, but he's good at reading the signs, and he backs down and we're able to smooth everything out. He's a great companion for my crazy girl Shiba (they are crazy about each other) and he's even been able to make inroads with my older fearful reactive Shiba who doesn't tolerate any other dogs. Because he's not too pushy and he reads other dogs signals well, he's probably the only dog who will ever be able to make any progress with Toby....

    He's just the perfect dog when there is a mix of personalities, levels of reactivity, etc. He really has the best social skills. And so while I know that's partially an individual dog thing, it is also something Kai tend to. And I have to say, after you meet a Kai and hang out with them....you'll love them. They are the best! I think all our future dogs will be either Kai or AA (because I also like having a big dog).

    Go Kai! :)
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2013-04-15 13:23:08
  • I just wanted to share a picture of @dlroberts Shiba Joey playing with my shikoku Miko.
    playdate031
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  • jikjakjikjak
    Posts: 431
    my shiba wasnt friendly at all when ghost was brought into the household as a puppy. she even bit him a couple times and drew blood. i had to keep an eye on them for the first month or two. eventually the shiba learned to accept him and now they get along and even play together.
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 2206
    Right,
    As many Shiba + Shikoku owners are saying here, adding a Shikoku to a Shiba household is not without concerns. Proper attention to their interaction will help you weather whatever storm could arise until they reach harmony at a later age.

    Jesse
    Jesse Pelayo

  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 261
    I'll try to capture a video next time, Grayson is definitely a rough play kind of dog. He loves huskies and my friend's husky-gsd mixes and does so taking on a few at a time even though he can fit under their legs.

    I don't know, I keep reading that shibas are not as social, want their own space, etc. But I really don't see it with Grayson -- he is very social with both dogs and humans. Constantly.
  • How old is Grayson? Shibas often get much more intolerant of other dogs as they get older. Though of course, you could just have one of the more rare very social Shibas.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 261
    @shibamistress he is 19 months now. I do hope his social skills stick around.

    I will try to capture a video this weekend and post it soon.
  • MikoChanMikoChan
    Posts: 61
    My Shiba is about the rudest (in the same vein as Shiko) and she has meet many Shiko's and loves them and their playing style. Honestly just depends on what your Shiba will tolerate just like everyone else is saying.
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 62
    Whoa! Finally getting back to this thread after being busy from work all week.

    Interesting perspective among Shikoku and Kai Ken as far as interactions go between them and Shibas. As far as how he plays, he's extremely boisterous and often told he plays too rough. Like @GrayJJ, Sagan is quite social and loves everyone. He wants to be in everyone's face, sniff everything, pee on everything, and generally all up in your business. I would think that he has a hard time of learning when to stop playing. Often times we have to take a time-out at dog parks for a quick breather for 4-5 minutes because he gets worked up. Sagan more or less plays like @Edgewood's Shikoku's in the videos. Tons of butt/body-slamming, nipping the legs, grabbing of the neck or ears, standing up on his hind legs and jumping ontop of them, etc.

    I do, however, think it has to do with his age. He's turning 1 next month, so I'm not sure if he'll ever calm down, or stop with the in-your-face, nippy, rough play-style. I doubt it, but again, I've never owned a Shiba past Sagan's age. I am aware that they start becoming dog intolerant after a certain age, but we'll have to see ourselves.

    We have looked more into the Kai Ken and they're obviously gorgeous. The fact that they can accommodate themselves to each individual dog is inspiring. You guys have all peaked my interest and I'm so glad to hear of the experiences and whatnot from other owners. :) There is no rush to anything, but this has definitely changed my mindset of a few things!
    Post edited by Rikka at 2013-04-20 00:29:42
  • If possible you should really meet both. I bet that would solidify a decision for you.
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  • Hinata23Hinata23
    Posts: 1444
    I agree with @JessicaRabbit. People sometimes really underestimate how useful meeting breeds like the Shikoku or Kai in person is.
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 62
    I'd love to. Does anyone live near the Seattle area? :p
  • Hinata23Hinata23
    Posts: 1444
    You have a Shikoku breeder in BC. Not too far. It's only an hour on clipper and than drive up to her place. Also there's a female Shikoku named Kunoichi in Victoria, BC.

    https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=202670297651859692995.0004cb127ac421241e6a8&msa=0
  • And your Shiba will change. They all do. They become quite a bit calmer after 2. That's also when more dog intolerance starts to creep in if it is going to.

    But yes, I'd suggest trying to meet Shikoku and Kai. Maybe plan a visit on year to the pet expo or Nippo classic....I didn't know how much I'd love the Kai Ken til I met them!
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2013-04-20 15:35:11
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5510
    I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but the thing that seems to be with a lot of shikoku is not they that don't play rough...they do! It's that only THEY are allowed to play rough. They're weird in that way, they're pretty rude dogs, but they don't like other rude dogs.

    That said, I think it could work...but there's a higher chance with a shikoku to run into more issues then there is with a more dog-social breed, like a kai. ~
  • Hinata23Hinata23
    Posts: 1444
    Yeah... ChoCho likes to sniff other dogs, but gets upset when they try to sniff her... It's really weird. lol
  • NekopanNekopan
    Posts: 869
    There are at least 2 Shikoku owners in the Vancouver (BC) area, @jikjak and @eljefespeaks who may be willing to meet with you. I don't know of any Kai owners in the area.
  • @jikjak (Terence) is in Richmond BC and can tell you how his Shikoku Ghost and his Shiba get along. His Shiba is older and seems to tolerate Ghost but I haven't seen them together except a year ago....

    @Rikka - I'm in North Vancouver and my Kuma (Ghost's brother) is around other dogs lots and has his big black lab girlfriend here in our house too, who he love (and CONSTANTLY pesters, nips, etc etc but she doesn't mind... Kuma also give her lotsa face/ear/mouth licks). He's standard Shikoku - rough, loud, nippy, butt/body slamming, up on hind legs... If yr Shiba is like that anyway now, I don't see much of problem integrating a Shikoku with him, provided Sagan continues to be exposed a lot to other dogs. If you are up my way, we could have Kuma and Sagan meet up.

    There is one other Shikoku in West Van, Pele, but I don't think she's very social with other dogs as she was not around other dogs other than their other Shikoku for much of her early life

    Jeff - with shikoku Kuma, 1.5yo at Jan 2013 and 45ish lbs
  • @Sangmort is very right. A lot of Shikoku can dish it out, but they totally can't take it.
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  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5510
    @JessicaRabbit - That's the perfect way to put it! lol ~
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    I also have seen a JA paired up with Shibas and they've gotten along well (at least this particular pair did). So I think your options are pretty open and it's really going to be down to the individual dogs really. Especially if you'd say Sagan does well with other dogs already. Some Shiba just don't at all, but the ones that do generally are pretty flexible with who they get paired up with. :)
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
    Post edited by cezieg at 2013-04-21 03:16:03
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 62
    @Eljefespeaks - Awesome! My partner and I are actually in Vancouver a few times a year, especially since it's only a 2 hour drive from us, but we've never brought Sagan along. Maybe we can make a weekend out of it, and see how they interact with each other? He sounds like he's the same as Kuma, but I think that may also have to do with his age. He's turning 1 next month.

    @cezieg - Indeed!
    Post edited by Rikka at 2013-04-21 17:59:47
  • mdokicmdokic
    Posts: 1020
    Having seen my Kai around looooots of different dogs with all kinds of temperaments and play styles, and having met other Kais, Shikokus and Shibas, I would think the Shiba+Kai would be a better option.

    Kais i've noticed (and have read) dont really have that aggressive tendency that many Nihon Ken do, i also think in general they are a little more patient and less "in your face" (although i kinda like that about Shikoku LOL)

    This weekend when Kona was in a pen with 4 other Shikoku that were bothering her and being a little much, instead of fighting back she would do her own thing and lay down (if they were persistent about it she would just bear her teeth, but nothing more) :)

    Of course like many said there are definitely exceptions to these generalizations, but remember too all those generalizations come from somewhere haha

    Hope this helps a little too :)
    Michelle, with Kai girls Kona and Kimber
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  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 62
    It does help, thank you! I really appreciate everyone's feedback and experiences.
  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 261
    The feedback is helpful for me, too! I have a trip planned to visit Akashima Kennel, So I can truly take in the Shikoku, observe and go from there. I'm excited just to be able to meet the breed.

    This weekend I dog-sat one of Grayson's shiba friends, a 4 yr old shy female. They often play together at the dog park, but it was the first time we spent all day together. As expected, Grayson was the one pestering her and mouthing her ears/face all day, would not give up! I tried to catch a video of their typical play, will figure out how to upload it this week.
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 62
    Yeah, I looked into Akashima Kennel as well. Sucks that they're a ~6.5 hour drive away from me. I'd have to make it into a weekend or something...
  • MikoChanMikoChan
    Posts: 61
    @mdokic that is one thing I do like about the Shikoku. @Rikka I will be getting a Shikoku pup from Katja in the next month or so if you are ever in Portland and I currently have a Shiba that's about 9 months.
  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 261
    Play video as promised, let's see if this works! Grayson is the darker/thinner Shiba in the clip. I did find that if they figured out I was filming, they'd stop playing lol so this was the best video I could record:



    *Revised - seems my link wasn't working!
    Post edited by GrayJJ at 2013-04-24 09:06:15
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 62
    @MikoChan - ARGH. I'm actually going to Portland this weekend. I'd love to see your Shikoku pup in the future though, if I'm ever back down there again! Let me know how your Shiba and Shikoku get along together. :)
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    What, a Shikoku in Portland? I'm gonna have to drive up there to see this. That is totally worth 4 hours of driving. There's a lotta good hiking in the area too. Hmm, now I need to plan a trip up there...
    image
  • MikoChanMikoChan
    Posts: 61
    @Losech He'll be the only one in Oregon from what I've been told.
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1899
    @MikoChan Oooh! Once you get your Shikoku I want to meet him. :) Maybe I can bring Meitou (my Hokkaido pup).

    @Rikka I know a Hokkaido isn't on your list, but if you want to meet Meitou while you're down here, let me know. I'm actually just over the river from Portland on the Washington side, but if things work out I'm open to trying to work something out depending on what day you're down this way on the weekend.

    @Losech Yeah, there's some great hiking around here. I love the hikes in the Gorge. (random link for funzies: http://www.gorgefriends.org/ )

    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 261
    Man, i need to move to the west coast! There doesn't seem to be any shikokus near me (Toronto).
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3421
    I wanna meet your Hokka! I didn't know there was one so close
    info@hokkaidoken.org
    www.hokkaidoken.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    A Hokka too? I NEED to drive up there!
    image
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1743
    @WhoBitMe - I have a friend in Oregon City I visit! Can I come and meet your Hokka next time I go? If it's just a hike across the river...

    Looks like there are a lot of forum people in that corner of the world, really.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
    Post edited by Crispy at 2013-04-25 23:49:46
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1899
    @Crispy Absolutely! :)
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
  • MikoChanMikoChan
    Posts: 61
    @WhoBitMe would love to meet your Hokka sometime also.
  • SakiSaki
    Posts: 88
    I have a 5yr old Shiba (Saki) and a 4 months old Shikoku (Yoko), two females. Saki has no balls and she's too sweet, so I asked the breeder to get the nicest girl, which I got. I have to say that they get along pretty well, but Shibas do need their space and some tranquility. The Shikokus are in-your-face type of dog and mine is no exception.

    Saki always looses a fight against Yoko. For example, Saki will have a bone, Yoko wants it too, Saki growls at her, Yoko takes the bone and leaves with it, Saki doesn't fight it. Or, Saki is peacefully sleeping on her sofa (well, our old sofa), Yoko jumps on it and is bothering Saki, Saki gets up and leave, Yoko gets the whole sofa for herself, Saki lies down on the floor. Same thing with food .... Saki eats, Yoko come to eat in her bowl, Saki backs away and waits that Yoko finishes.

    I feel bad for Saki, she doesn't want any trouble, so she lets Yoko win with everything. Yoko is very sweet, but a real pain in the ass sometimes for Saki. Now I'm writing and both of them are lying down quietly next to me.

    I guess it all depends on their personality.
    Photobucket
  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 261
    @Saki thanks for sharing your experience. I'm definitely taking my time to consider'
    Have you posted pictures of Yoko? So curious!
  • jikjakjikjak
    Posts: 431
    @rikka im in richmond, bc as @eljefespeaks mentioned and if you are ever in the area you can definitely meet Ghost. if i ever head south ill post here as well and perhaps Ghost can come along for the ride too!

    @whobitme wow i totally want to meet a hokkaido, just before portland isnt too far from BC. there is a hokkaido in alberta canada as well!
  • SakiSaki
    Posts: 88
    @GrayJJ I don't come often on the forum. I did not put any pictures of Yoko so far, but I did on FB on "I love my Shikoku" group if you would like to go see.

    Photobucket
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1743
    I still haven't been accepted into the "I Love My Shikoku" group! Wah! Who do I have to bribe?
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1899
    @lindsayt Yeah, he's been here in the USA since April 4th, I just haven't posted about him. Partly laziness, partly nerves, and partly because some emotional things happened the day he came home.

    If anyone is ever in my area and wants to meet him, feel free to send me a message. @Losech @MikoChan @jikjak @lindsayt
    1 Human + 1 Hokkaido
    RIP Amy (Border Collie)

    “Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket.
    But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.”
    --Patrick Rothfuss, A Wise Man's Fear

    "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."
    --Brandon Sanderson, the First Ideal from The Stormlight Archive.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3965
    @Crispy, inbox me your FB profile and I can invite you into the group instead. Or email if you want to give me that instead
    image
    Post edited by Calia at 2013-04-27 18:17:31
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3421
    @whobitme

    Awesome! I will message you when I know next I am in that area. I want to host a meetup at my house this summer also, so you and everyone are invited (Puyallup, WA).
    info@hokkaidoken.org
    www.hokkaidoken.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 62
    @jikjak - Awesome, sounds like there's a few of you in the Vancouver area. I'll see if I can do a mini Canada trip over a random weekend here in a month or two. I'll post in this thread whenever I'm thinking about it, and make sure to bring Sagan with me.
  • jikjakjikjak
    Posts: 431
    awesome, sounds good, just keep as posted!
  • wliu003wliu003
    Posts: 286
    Recently been looking into Shikoku's (as well as other breeds in general.) We finally have a nice sized yard but its hard to keep her entertained all by myself. I throw the tennis ball and chase her around but she gets bored after a rounds. I also do a lot of gardening so sometimes I'm not even paying attention to her so she just hunts for lizards by herself.

    Kelly (5 year old Shiba Inu) and Benkei (4 month old Kai Ken)
  • Hey everyone! I think this is the right forum to post on as I do not want to start a whole new forum post for the same question. My fiancé and I currently own a Shiba Inu. Asami is a 4 month old female and is very in your face and rough and tumble style of play. She will literally take a big dog (German Shepherds, rotties, pitt mixes, etc.) down through her style of play. I have noticed a lot of people saying that Shikoku and Shiba do not mix, however if we get a Shikoku around her 1.5 year birthday, will we be able to get them to mesh well and play together? We are making a trip out to visit Peggy (hopefully soon) in order to meet with her dogs and see if Asami would mesh well with the type of play. We are thinking of adding a female into our home and I wanted advice? Thanks everyone!
  • mdokicmdokic
    Posts: 1020
    I don't own either breed but have had a lot of interaction with both.. at this point I think you are doing the right thing by going out to visit. You know how Asami is with other dogs and what style of play she likes and if you can find a shikoku that meshes well with that personality I think you could set yourself up for success. Will you be taking Asami with you to meet the Shikoku?
    Michelle, with Kai girls Kona and Kimber
    DSC_6037_NEW_banner
  • Hi! I own two shibas, a girl who is 8 yrs. old and a boy who is 7 years old who are inseperable and when searching for our third pup we visited with a family who had a kai and a shikoku to get a feel for the breeds. We have been told from multiple sources that shikoku and shibas don't usually mesh well due to both having a strong dominant personality. I would especially be cautious with adding a second female. A lot of times females are way more dominant than the males. I know our female shiba is the alpha of the house and would clash with another one in the household. A boy/girl pairing usually works out best. We ended up adding a male kai ken puppy to our family and I think it was the best decision. It took a lot of research and discussion to make the right choice for us. I truly think that a second female would have been a disaster since my shiba girl has such a strong personality. Our new kai puppy who is 4 months old loves the shibas and has learned to read them well. It's not perfect harmony 100% of the time, but that would be unrealistic in a multi-dog household.

    Well good luck in your search for a second pup. My advice is take your time researching and talk and meet as many people that are knowledgeable about the nihon ken breeds as possible. It will pay off in the end. @aeb5468
    ~Jen~ Mommy to Raiden the Kai, and Shibas Nalla & Kimba!
    image
    Post edited by shibagirl88 at 2016-02-16 13:12:01
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 4530
    @aeb5468 - Your Shiba pup is four months old... I honestly doubt you will be able to get a good feel for how she does with other dogs until she is an adult (usually around 2 years or so). So beware of judging how she will be as an adult based on her puppy personality now.

    That being said, if you want to add a Shikoku to your family, I would start by socializing your Shiba with them now. So visiting Peggy or other Shikoku owners on a regular basis would be a start.

    If you have not done so already, I would suggest reading through this thread. There is a lot of great information here from people who have owned both a Shiba and a Shikoku. It seems that the general consensus is that it is not the best idea, but with a dedicated owner, a lot of work, and the right mix of dogs, it is possible to get them to co-exist.

    My older Shiba pretty much immediately hates any Shikoku that she meets. My younger one has tolerated a couple, but honestly... A Shikoku is the ONLY dog that she has ever growled at. She is usually incredibly tolerant of other dogs.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
  • I forgot to add one thing, but @sunyata took the words right out of my mouth lol.. your shiba is still too young to know for sure how she will respond to a new dog male or female. Exposure and socialization starting now during puppyhood is essential in helping her grow into a well rounded pup. Shibas can be funny and not all are able to tolerate other dogs or certain situations. Many are very aloof and independent. Be patient and get to know your puppy as she grows before adding a second dog. We socialized the heck out of both of ours and now they are very well behaved and social dogs who love people young and old. They also do ok with other dogs, but don't like them in their faces or to be jumped on. As long as the other dogs respect their space they are fine. My shibas rather be loved on by people than hang out and play with other dogs. I have also noticed that they do best with other shibas and now our kai than any other breed. I don't know if its because they understand each other best or what. @aeb5468 hope our insight helps!
    ~Jen~ Mommy to Raiden the Kai, and Shibas Nalla & Kimba!
    image
  • Thank you so much @shibagirl88 and @sunyata and @mdokic! I would like to bring Asami out to visit with Peggy and her dogs. It is still in the works and if she lets us, we will definitely bring her. Asami currently attends 4 hour long puppy/small/medium dog (15-45lbs) socials per week and attends training 1 time per week. I am under the assumption that Peggy and Bob not only breed Shikoku, but Kai as well. I figured when we visit, we will get a nice feel for both types of dogs and their behavior, and figure out if either is the best fit. It seems through this thread that a lot of people think Kai work better with a Shiba. There is also just the option of getting a second Shiba as we know the breed and how Asami loves to visit with her siblings, parents (and parents siblings) and even Happy (a shiba that lives near us). I think once we have a visit with Peggy, we will have a clear view of the breed and their personality. Once again, I thank you all for your advice and I want you to know that I will take it to heart.
    Editted grammar around socials and training!
    Post edited by aeb5468 at 2016-02-16 15:02:53
  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 261
    I'll chime in...given I was an eager owner over 2 years ago ^ and knowingly willing to face every challenge, I added a shikoku.
    Per above, my shiba was SUPER rough playing and outgoing, loved every dog and human, took on a group of huskies at the dog park, etc., so my gut feeling told me he would be accepting of any dog I wanted to add.

    While my dogs got off on the right foot right away, I count my lucky stars that it went well! I do recognize that it could have went horribly wrong if they hated each other! We have met other shibas and most of them absolutely hated Takeo. He's a very typical shikoku, and fits this description to a tee http://www.shikokuclub.org/shikokuken_life.php.

    After now 2.5 years of this combo, I will echo many challenges from this thread and other threads that I don't believe are really shiba & shikoku are a good pairing.

    My two cents:
    - Many people have said to me, a shikoku seems like a larger, softer shiba -- they are polar opposites of that. I honestly can think back to the "worst" puppy days with my shiba, x 10000 = shikoku lol
    - I think the challenge is a shiba has an off button, a shikoku doesn't ;) You think you have a stubborn dog now...
    - Kai ken's are definitely a better match for a shiba, overall. They have such a nice personality, and do really get along with most dogs
    - I've had other friends get second dogs (not a shikoku) and have a much easier time day-to-day, no management required!
    - Also something to consider, with management required, it's not as easy to find a dog sitter/kennel/play groups, etc.
    - Shikokus can have trouble getting along with other dogs, no matter how hard you work, prey drive trumps everything! Cats and small dogs get laser-like focus.
    - Persistence and rudeness are not traits that can be erased from the breed
    - My dogs know how to "put on a good show"...so yes, they can make a lovely first impression. The best way to know if it's a breed for you is to meet MANY shikokus, as many as you can & yes, even better if you can bring your shiba along. I do agree with the above, that your shiba is still a puppy, and their personalities do change once they are 2.
    - I have met many "dog" people who honestly cannot handle Takeo.
    - No matter how friendly your shiba is, they have a "limit"...and shikokus forever test the boundaries. Be prepared for constant monitoring.
    - Consider a backup plan: what will you do if your shiba and shikoku don't get along? Can you deal with separating your dogs for long-term (maybe even forever)?

    That being said, My dogs are my world, and I wouldn't trade them for anything. While their relationship takes management, they DO play all day together and do get along really well. So my best advice to people who are determined to add a shikoku, think really carefully, plan carefully, and be prepared. Shikokus are great breed if you're up for the challenge -- personally, I love every minute of it! But I can also see it's not for everyone.
  • I have mixed feelings about waiting until two years old. Yes, its true you don't really know your NK's personality and limits until they mature. But on the other hand they're much more accepting at a younger age, making introductions easier. If introductions go poorly, which is more likely with adults, then there is very little chance of long term success. On the other hand, the longer the dogs are together *without* issue, the less likely they will develop an issue in the future. So easy introductions and growing up together reduces the chance of having problems as adults. Not to say it wont happen, dogs do change as they mature and sex hormones kick in, but they're much more likely to be forgiving of a family member / packmate than a stranger being a punk.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
  • @PoetikDragon - How common are cases where a NK that got along well with household dogs when they were pups, grow to become intolerant of them as well? I do hear stories of some Shibas turning on their family members later on and it's a constant dread of mine as I watch my girl mature.
  • @Nikkitine That I really don't know. There have been a couple on this forum, though often there were problems that started when the dogs were young that just steadily got worse over time. Stuff like one dog bullying the other for months before the other finally had enough of it and then they couldn't be put together again. There have also been stories where people had to basically start all over from scratch because what they were doing to manage the situation was making things worse, and sometimes they've been successful in reintegrating the dogs. But overall, you don't really see a lot of posts about all the people who have raised dogs together and NOT had issues, you know? So its hard to guess a percentage, even just out of NKF members let alone the population at large.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2016-02-21 13:04:50
  • @PoetikDragon

    Yeah understandable. I tend to overthink things, then gradually move on to being paranoid when things get too rowdy at home haha. My Shiba gets really feisty when playing with my Lab so I have I'm on constant monitor duty to make sure energy levels don't spike where she starts getting snappy.
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    I think it sometimes helps if the dogs are unevenly matched in some way. If one's bigger, older, faster, etc. Anecdotally, it seems like adult dogs tolerate puppies fairly well. It helps to continue socializing beyond the younger years, too. That being said, I don't know of any stories of shiba or Shikoku suddenly turning on a dog they were once OK with (except some minor scuffles in adolescence, but I don't worry about that). I'm sure those stories exist, but I'd say that's not the norm.

    The other thing is that it's just harder to have two puppies at once. Dogs are a lot more work in the first two years. Of course, maybe you'd rather do it together rather than getting through those first two years and immediately starting again, haha.

    It's true there's a bit of a bias in what's reported because people are more likely to post when things go wrong because a lot of people come here asking for help and advice.

    I don't know. I'd probably base my decision primarily on what works best for my life.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
    image
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 2206
    Because Shibas temperaments vary so wildly, I can't say with great confidence that a Shikoku would be a great partner for them.

    Shikokus are impulsive little ankle-biting assholes as puppies that don't take "no" as an answer (nor "how about no?" as a question). Shikokus are I-want-what-I-want-and-I-wanted-it-yesterday relentless. No matter how assertive and rough your Shiba may like to play, Shikokus will wear your Shiba down in the competitive one-upsmanship/escalation they like to do and will have energy to spare.

    To this day, my Shikoku will incite reactive behavior from the most well-behaved dogs by simply a mere look (my Shikoku is likely who @sunayata is referring to).

    Like I said...and I say this with the utmost endearment for my two Shikokus...Shikokus are jerks/assholes and their best play partner is another Shikoku (or a bigger dog that can easily outmuscle them).

    Jesse
    Jesse Pelayo

  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 4530
    To this day, my Shikoku will incite reactive behavior from the most well-behaved dogs by simply a mere look (my Shikoku is likely who @sunayata is referring to).


    Haha. Yep. I was SO shocked to hear sweet little Nola growl!
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    Rakka likes to get right up to a dog and stare at them without doing anything else. "What? I'm not touching you!"

    Basically if you ever had an annoying sibling, that's Shikoku.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
    image
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 2206
    Actually @Heidi, I was just walking my dogs when I came up with this analogy.

    Everybody has that kid that loved to get physical who they grew up with during childhood. Usually they're identified as bullies but sometimes you just chalk it up to that "weird kid".

    - That kid in class that squeezes your hand really hard in a handshake thinking it's a game until you fall to your knees in pain
    - That kid in class that would bear-hug you in play and you find yourself inadvertently in the who-can-crush-the-other-one-more until they say "I give!"
    - That kid in class that during recess would be the first one to suggest, "Let's play King of the Mountain!" or "Let's Play Smear the Queer (hey, it was the 80's)."
    - That kid that would punch you in the shoulder just because and giggle at your discomfort because they thought it was a funny thing to do. Then when you punch them back they giggle more and then punch you harder. Before you know it it's escalated into a wrestling match. Soon after that it's escalated into a fight. Then the two of you are broken up their response is, "We were just playing!"

    That kid....that's the Shikoku.

    Jesse
    Jesse Pelayo

    Post edited by CrimsonO2 at 2016-02-25 11:06:32
  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 261
    Well said, @Heidi and @Crimson02! Totally agree.

    Today's example: both my Shiba +Shikoku sitting together relaxing on the same bed (which is rare)... After a while, Shikoku decides to kick out his legs, shoving my Shiba out of bed. Of course, no less than 5 mins later, Shikoku gets off the bed lol
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 150
    @CrimsonO2

    Now I'm starting to like Shikokus :-))

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