Hunting insight into hunting predators and other non-herbivore species?
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    So, something I've been pondering for a while is why people go out to hunt apex predators. Ecologically it doesn't make sound sense to be picking off what amounts to being the custodians of their environments. One example would be killing wolves which manage not only deer and wild pigs, but also invasive/pest species (such as feral cats) that prey upon the young of native species.

    Firstly, I've hunted small game such as squirrels and frogs. I also spearfish and fish saltwater regularly. So I'm by no means coming at this from a PETA standpoints lol. I'm all for hunting deer and herd animals since one animal produces a huge amount of meat. The pelts can also be used as material and offal/bones/ligaments make great treats for the dogs. Thinning out boar also means that plant-based native food sources aren't being stripped.

    What I'm not seeing, in terms of efficient use and management of resources, is the benefit of hunting coyotes, wolves, bears, and mountain lions. To me at least, it seems rather destructive to be hunting animals that live in small numbers over large expanses of territory vs animals that have significant population density. Coyotes and bobcats play a large part in feral cat, rat, and other pest species management. Mountain lions and wolves thin the weak/slow/unhealthy of herd animals and ensure the populations don't exceed what the fauna of an area can handle by the natural fluctuations of prey to predator ratios (which will also flow in reverse, predators dropping in number when there are too few prey animals to support the population).

    Also, unless people do it, I also don't see the appeal to eat large cat meat or canid meat. They're just too close to our dogs and house cats to make me enthused about eating it.

    So it seems that the main drive for hunting these species is solely to have a pelt on the wall or check a species off the list. From what I understand, a large part of being a responsible outdoorsman is to use what is harvested from nature. I'm just not seeing a lot of useage out of taking a predator.

    For the members that do support or engage in predator hunting could you give your insight into this topic? I know this is a very touchy/personal subject. This is my first time asking about this on any forum or to any person. I think here on NK there is a very good dialogue and good-posting, so I figured this would be the best place to post about the topic :D
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
    Post edited by cezieg at 2013-02-22 13:53:11
  • Oh, this is a touchy one for sure. And since I grew up in Alaska where "predator control" is always an issue, I have a lot of thoughts on it, but probably don't have the stomach for much of a debate, because at least in Alaska, the politics are just ugly. My thoughts are kind of a side note to what you're asking, but still very much related.

    In Alaska, Game and Fish is very clear on the purpose of predator control: kill the wolves because they kill moose that people want to hunt. Even though science has not backed up some of their ideas--it was found out a long time ago that in fact grizzlies in Alaska kill a many young moose, no one was calling for predator control of grizzlies (most likely because they are also trophy animals, whereas wolves are not, and the board of Fish and Game was mostly hunters who primary purpose was to cater to the hunting lobby, esp. the "bring in the money" out of state big game hunters). In Alaska, even a lot of hunters I otherwise respected got on the bandwagon of "kill all the wolves" so there are more moose (and yes, in alaska there were many, many people suggesting exactly that). It makes no sense, but that was the way it was played.

    There are many people still in the west in particular that want very heavy predator control so that there are more game animals to hunt, or to protect livestock. In my mind, yes, there may be times that we need some hunting of predators--but I feel that the regular hunting permits that out there for predators are sufficient--we don't need to be shooting wolves from airplanes or helicopters (Alaska).

    I don't know why people want to hunt the predators themselves, though some things I can see: wolf and coyote pelts are very nice and useful (wolf and coyote fur do not frost over like some other types of fur, so are useful for parka ruffs in really cold places like Alaska). People do eat bears. I suppose some hunters really want the challenge of the big predators?

    We do need SOME hunting of predators, especially coyotes. Without some hunting, they can and will get overpopulated. This is very, very clear in the coyote population in the US. In the lower 48, there aren't enough wolves to justify hunting them. But I think the reasons this gets so polarized so fast is that people take the most extreme positions: no hunting ever (or at least no hunting of predators), or get rid of all the predators are the points people play up. There is also a strong contingency of people who still believe that humans have dominion over all the animals, and therefore the desire to hunt takes precedence over a wild animal's need to hunt to survive: human desire to kill a moose is more important than the survival of wolves, for example.

    Overall, I think sound management is just a difficult issue, when there are so many different sides clamoring for mutually exclusive positions. Unfortunately, most of the time, it is not sound management principles that win.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • Mike283Mike283
    Posts: 149
    I'm in the same mindset as you in that I don't see the need to kill animals that have low population density. if a predatory animals population gets out of control for some reason I see hunting them to manage that. even non predatory animals that are low in numbers like rhinos, elephants and similar I don't feel there is a good reason to hunt. with our own population we should be hunting people, there's more reason to control the population of people than many of the animals that are hunted for strictly trophy.
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    Ok I will voice the pro predator hunters. I do a lot f predator hunting and for me the only reason is for management. I have two examples of where the lack of predator control has gone unchecked and is now negatively impacting the hoofed wildlife.

    California banned lion hunting in the 80s because voters were told that they were endangered of becoming extinct (no real lion studies conducted in Ca until the 90s). So with thin the last 20 years lions have massed their numbers. Since the rise of the lion population, ca deer numbers has fallen over 50% and human/lion issues nearly quadrupled. In my county, the pacific desert big horn numbers are being plummeted because of lion predation.

    Another example would be Yellowstone. Before wolves were reintroduced, Yellowstone had a high density of elk, deer, and bison. Since the intro of wolves, Yellowstone lost a quarter of their free ranging bison and elk. Deer population is at its lowest.

    The notion that predators will keep a echo system mismanaged by humans is detremental. Predators do what they do best, kill a prey the best way possible to survive. When you have a park that is unchecked and uncontrolled for so many years, reintroduce a apex predator and hope the predators will watch boundaries and kill only the sick and old is wrong.

    At some point there has to be a way to also control the number of predators within a given habitat as we do hoofed animals. Because this conservation system is not in place, you end up with unbalanced numbers of predator to prey ratio. When a predator no longer has available food sources in its habitat where does it go? Some where else where there's food. If that new area already has a apex predator, the new addition just added a uneven load to the prey of that habitat.

    Unfortunately, humans have dipped their hands in the balance of predator and prey so at some point wether its pretty or not something has to be done about predators.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
    Post edited by shishiinu at 2013-02-23 00:36:03
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    For me, I want predators to retain a fear of man. I don't want mountain lions and coyotes feeling safe in human neighbhorhoods.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3006
    My only thing I don't like with coyote and wolf hunting is use of poisoned meat or any type of poison bait.

    A dog would easily find it tasty and could get hurt. At least with a human hunting the animal they pick and choose to kill a poison or kill trap doesn't..

    I do think farmers should give live stock guardian dogs a try. I mean a couple good ones should deter wolves and coyotes and even roaming dogs from hurting their live stock.

    Sad so many are now just pets and not used for their intended purpose..

    Heck a Great pyrenees I'm not impressed with it one came wandering in my yard we called it's owner she walks from their farm and said they were repairing their chicken coup and he is afraid of drills..

    Some guardian he is afraid of noise like that!

    Coarse who knows maybe that was only thing he was afraid of..

    I know this one farm is using kangal dogs to protect their livestock from cheetahs it's a win win as farmers live stock live and the cheetahs are deterred from the livestock and go for something with out a dog to protect it..

    People do eat bear.

    Coyotes I dunno.

    One person on dogster feeds bear and plans to feed coyote to their dog. D:

    I'm for using up an animal, but feeding a coyote to a dog just doesn't seem right. :\ I dunno..

    If someone offered me bear meat I would cook it or make dehydrated dog treats, but not fed raw. I think they have trichinosis? Could be wrong.

    I wouldn't mind cooking bear to try..

    There is recipes for opossums so I guess depends where you live.

    I remember watching some Alaskan show and the guy had shoot a wolf that was getting close to town. He got it's pelt and put it's body in the woods. so the meat wasn't used.

    I'm not for aerial hunting of wolves as it seems so unfair to do that.

    Things like cougars can be an issue as some places they have less land and eventually will cause issues with humans and deer.

    I'm for hunting right way, but poison seems harsh..

    I'm lucky so far has had no issues with coyotes. I do think my neighbor will loose their dachund someday as they leave it on tie out for outside time and to potty. I hear it whining and crying at night sometimes which is sad. The dog shouldn't be alone especially such a small dog.

    I bring a knife with me in case on hikes luckily animals run heck away even coyotes.. The dogs have bells on so they kinda warn things before we get close.

    Though bunnies are dumb they tend to stay in the trail till last minute then run to the high grass.

    I mean if coyote is rabid acting or acting bold sure I'll deal with it, but so far they keep wide distance from me. Ones in city seems more bolder luckily I don't live in city right now..

    Sad California doesn't allow use of dogs on cougars and bear anymore.. :\

    I mean if it did get away somehow at least then it has a new fear of humans and dogs.

    That's why when they do bear releases they try to haze them so they get more weary of humans..

    When I do see a coyote I do yell at it even if it's at a distance and running away from my presence I figure that help it be more afraid hearing me yell at it.

    I'm always cautious when taking dogs out to potty at night with flashlight. Did see two coyotes once I was at the house and they were at the trail on the burn pile side very far from me. They stood there for a bit then ran off in other direction.

    Dad had to kill a raccoon once as it was acting way too brazen coming to the door, back upper deck and stuff didn't run off despite Saya barking at it from the door.

    Saya has treed juvenile raccoon that was eating my pears.. After she did it the second time they stopped coming though they could have learned lesson and came at night to eat the pears. :\

    The juvenile raccoons were killed week later not sure of what, but whatever it was it ate it all was left was head, fur and stomach. Gross.

    Someone has said coyotes don't kill raccoons, but juvenile ones maybe they weren't too big.

    I'm not a hunter mainly fish and stuff. I have gotten a few books to read on such subject haven't gotten chance to read it as I'm finishing up current books before digging into this.

    There is a need for some predator management especially in urban areas where said animals become very bold and brazen.

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    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • Where I live and go coyotes are not scared of humans and will kill small dogs and cats. They will also sucker a single dog into a pack of coyotes. As far as mountain lions and bears go the dogs will tree them I take pictures and we leave plus the bear or lion usually learn to leave the area. Alot of ranchers will hire a professional hunter to take care of a lion that is killing his/her livestock. Wolves are dangerous. I stay clear away from them. They will wipe out a pack of hounds and a few guys I know have lost dogs to wolves.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    I've been on the anti predator hunting side of the fence for awhile, until just recently.

    In Taos the black bear encroachment was getting very bad, and bear were starting to habituate and even prey on humans. But, I still didn't feel we should be hunting them. That is actually why I got into Laika, I was working with the town to start a bear shepherding program and had planned to use my Laiki for this. But then we moved.

    Now that I live here I have been more active with the local Fish and Game and have been communicating with them. I was informed that catamounts are a big issues here, as are black bear, but not for the reason they are an issue in Cali or Taos. Due to the grand canyon Flagstaff is basically a sky island. Our Elk and Deer population is sealed off from the rest of the Colorado Plateau so AZ F&G has to be extra sensitive to their population levels. This is why big cats and black bear need to be controlled in numbers here, as without doing that the deer and elk population would shrink and the predators would then start to prey on nontraditional prey (like us).

    The warden I talked to last week told me that an adult mountain lion kills 1 deer a day. He basically asked me to start hunting lion in our area since there are so few hunters who do that.

    So, my opinion has changed on this topic. However, if I'm to be honest, I do not really see the need for killing Wolves and Coyote. I just do not see them to be as big of an issue as they are made out to be by the ranchers and hunters who hunt them. I know ranchers are losing money due to the reintroduction of the wolf, but there are other methods - that have existed for 1000s of years - to control livestock loss from wolves. To me, I think the ranchers just got too comfortable not having to deal with any predatory threats, and now that they have the threat again, they want to stir up all kinds of drama.

    I also agree with @ayk on her point. It's important that predators keep their naturally imprinted fear of humans. In Taos, for example, it was not legal to hunt big cat, and so a person dies every year in Taos because the big cats are not afraid of us.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    I don't really have an issue with predator hunting, so long as it's done humanely and not to the point where the animal is at risk of extinction.

    Human habitation is continuously spreading, encroaching on wildlife and causing greater interactions between humans and wildlife. A lot of these animals have adapted to living in a human environment, which is a plentiful source of food whether it be willing handouts (bird feeders) or the garbage left on the curb. Needless to say, this easy source of food allows for the predators to survive and reproduce more readily than if humans weren't around.

    Needless to say, I do wish that people wouldn't use hunting as their first response to an unwanted predator. Wolves used to be everywhere, if people didn't just decide to eradicate them through massive hunting and used means to coexist, there wouldn't be so much head butting between the ranchers and the people who are trying to save the wolf species. Wolves would have had generations to learn to fear livestock and humans, as well as them being a fact of life instead of a nuisance.
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  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    Out here coyotes and lions are the top predators on the deer. You'll be surprised at how many deer fawns and pregnant does fall prey to coyotes. Coyotes are extremely smart and will absolutely decimate deer herds. The bears also do a lot of damage during the fawning season but not as much as coyotes and lions.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1559
    As with all things, a bit of balance is necessary to keep things in balance. And when it comes to nature, an eternally evolving, living environment, if we intend to have some sort of 'management' over it, then methods need to flexible, and adapt to current situations. Either of the extremes, save all the predators, unlimited killing of predators, will create problems.

    I'm not a predator hunter as I'm only interested in hunting for meat. That's why I prefer to hunt boar as opposed to squirrel for instance (more meat > less meat), and I'm not that interested in eating apex predators for sure. But here in Japan we don't have predator issues, other than Hokkaido where they do need to manage the Brown Bears from time to time due to them habituating too close to humans, so this is probably why predator hunting is not even on my radar.

    I think to have balanced management of an environment close to human settlement, there may be times where a thinning of the predator population is necessary. As mentioned earlier, it also helps to instill a healthy fear of dogs/humans in the remaining animals. Hopefully though, sane heads prevail and management programs are based on sound science and not leaning toward either end of the spectrum.

  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050

    Another example would be Yellowstone. Before wolves were reintroduced, Yellowstone had a high density of elk, deer, and bison. Since the intro of wolves, Yellowstone lost a quarter of their free ranging bison and elk. Deer population is at its lowest.

    The notion that predators will keep a echo system mismanaged by humans is absolutely laughable. Predators do what they do best, kill a prey the best way possible to survive. When you have a park that is unchecked and uncontrolled for so many years, reintroduce a apex predator and hope the predators will watch boundaries and kill only the sick and old is again laughable.


    So for a population that has had zero predators to lose 1/4 of their population, that doesn't sound unreasonable to me. Let's say the population sat at 1million before wolf reintroduction. If we hadn't taken the predators out than it stands to reason that the population would not be 1 million, it would be say half or 3/4 of their population. So the impact of reintroducing wolves doesn't sound that major to me.

    You missed the second half of the circle, where once the prey runs low the predator population cannot be sustained and will starve out. That would go into effect without human interference and human interests however. It's the natural flow of things and the system by which ecosystems balance themselves out.

    It also wouldn't be "laughable" if you've ever taken any courses on environmental sciences. If you think wolves and sharks will gorge themselves until there is nothing left and everything will go extinct then we wouldn't have such a variety of wildlife now would we?

    A system with zero predators for any length of time is of course going to have to go through some population ebbs and flows before rebalancing itself. That's a very unique situation that is not very comparable to other areas such as most of the Pacific Northwest regions. Very similar to which invasive species are introduced to an environment (like constrictors in the Everglades) which then have no natural competition, therefore they are highly destructive.

    Your reasoning for hunting them is sound from what you describe of your personal excursions. Culling overpopulation of predators in unique environments that have been so affected by humans that they cannot balance themselves is a reasonable thing to do. I may have had to specify hunting apex predators in wilderness environments that are not undergoing over-predation on a conservation level in order to get the perspective I'm questioning. That which is going out to, lets say Alaska where the ecosystem is managing itself just fine, and actively hunt Grizzly or wolves for no management reasons, just for the sake of it.

    @brada1878 That's actually really interesting! I never knew Flagstaff was so environmentally cut off. That's a responsible method of predator hunting as well, so I would engage in that if the local prey populations are threatened due to being so cut off from other populations for interbreeding.

    I also agree on the wolf issues with ranchers. It has always seemed like an issue of destructive convenience, where a few bullets cost less than good safety measures. The only reason they lose "part of their livelihood" is because they don't have dogs and reasonable deterrences.

    @Jindohoundman The world needs less chihuahuas and puggles anyways! :P That's pretty crazy and I've heard of that. I forget who it was but it was some celebrity out walking her little white chihuahua around Arizona or New Mexico, when all of a sudden a coyote runs out of a bush and tries to make off with her chihuahua LOL. Many years of vet tech work has instilled a dislike of small, yappy things haha.
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    Speaking of predator/prey population cycling there's a really good, yet simple, simulator of this back around the 90s... going to see if I can find it.
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    Found it, at least a modernized version of it.

    http://dovsherman.deviantart.com/art/Wa-Tor-An-Ecosimulation-25692206

    Start of with a map as big as you want, within reason, max out the prey, and add 2 predators. You'll see the fluctuations are massive until it balances back out. Of course, this would be without human intervention on either the prey or predator side, seeing as how prey animals generally reproduce on a faster level than predators. Of course this can be adjusted to relatives of specific populations and it also isn't perfect. But the math on it all averages out that in an unaltered environment if there is a massive excess of prey then the predator population will explode until it reaches a point that is unsustainable. Prey of adequate size will be very hard to find and scavenging sub-optimal prey will only last so long, eventually resulting in the predator population starving out to a sustainable level.

    Edit: It took 625'ish cycles for populations to reach an equilibrium only to restart the cycles of extremes again around 1000'ish cycles. Around 1350 there was a hard reset where the predator population was down to a single group and then two where it completely restarted.

    As an aside... the points of extreme fluctuation would be where those with more advantageous characteristics would reproduce while those with less advantageous characteristics would die off. (SCIENCE!)
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
    Post edited by cezieg at 2013-02-22 22:18:59
  • After reading these, i can't help but say it: I am not a fan of any hunting. Not i have never lived in an area where things have been bad from predators, so i don't have first hand experience with it, but i think it's awful uppity or humans to think we have the right to regulate the other creatures on the earth. I will say i'm okay with the hunting and eating of animals in the past or if you decide to live closer to nature, as in become s hunter gatherer person. But there are other alternatives now so it doesn't make much sense to me. Really though, animals managed themselves perfectly fine before we came, and if we'd just leave them alone i'm sure they'd be fine. They are highly evolved animals.
    Post edited by Esperchan at 2013-02-22 23:44:36
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    I'm not a wildlife biologist by any means but going off of what I have seen coming from a family with wildlife biologists. Yellowstone is a mess right now because of over predation by wolves. You can't take a place where wolves have been non existent for centuries, put wolves in and hope everything works out. The elk, bison, and deer lives there for a long time only falling prey to starvation, coyotes, and bears. Now add wolves and the animals had a difficult time because of a completely new predator. Wolves were extremely efficient in putting a major dent in the population of hoofed animals. So much that they would drive herds out of their range into the national forest.

    I wish it was that easy to harvest a brown bear or a Wolfe in Alaska. Alaska has some of the best wildlife biology in the world. I'm under the assumption that some might think you can hunt these animals with just a license. It's much more cost involved. In North America when you hunt big game, most all states including Alaska requires you to purchase specific tags for specific animals. The conservation department sets a quota on how many animals can be taken and sets a limited number of tags for each animal. The work of the biologists is to do animal counts (I have personally taken part in animal counts) so that they can set the tag count.

    This method of wildlife conservation has been copied around the world in managing wildlife. Because of this method MANY animals have recovered from near extinction (wild turkey, pronghorn, grizzly bears, wolves, etc). Unfortunately it's not a perfect world where the preservationist mentality can be used due to human encroachment and environmental changes.

    Didn't mean to come off like a jackass, hunting is a subject I have a lot of passion for and something that is part of my livelihood. It's also a very deep subject and many people have different views.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    @shishiinu Agreed on the fact that something new cannot be reintroduced without being able to manage population explosions. If you run the simulator that can be seen quite clearly. The wolves in Alaska are a bit more of a political point, where they weren't getting the hoofed animal numbers they wanted for tourism so they allowed massacring wolf populations by helicopter. Rather unsportsmanlike and unethical imo. That's actually pretty interesting that herds would actually take sanctuary in the national forest. Wolves definitely aren't the top predators just because they're nice to look at lol.

    You do bring up the reasoning for my primary post though. If I had to boil it down then it could be summarized as "Just because they say it's ok to take 50 grizzlies per year, because that's what's sustainable, why do it if it's not resource efficient?". That's mainly what I was getting at.

    You didn't come off as a jackass. I just read the "laughable" part part as unnecessary that's all :) As I said I enjoy hunting and the outdoors just as much! If you don't mind, what kind of hunts have you gone on and where? And what are your methods, are dogs involved? I'm just now getting into medium-large size hunting and am going to do some rifle/shotgun hunting around the summer time. My uncle is retired and works at Bass Pro Shops so he's going to hook me up with an at-cost rifle or shotgun, very excited!
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
    Post edited by cezieg at 2013-02-22 22:31:01
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    Absolutely the Alaska wolf issue is definitely political. The only helicopter shooting I would say is beneficial is hogs in Texas! Although if there are too many wolves there has to be a balance both predator and prey.

    For wildlife conservation and take the NA big bears for example, the number to take is most often set with how many of a certain specie a specific environment can handle. So biologists also take into consideration how much food is available for each specific specie and figure out how many of one animal the given area can sustain.

    Think about it, if within a 5 mile radius only two or three grizzlies can be sustained, wouldn't it be better to take the excess animal (as long as there is a healthy population or over abundance) instead of starving it? Taking by generating revenue from that one grizzly to put back into research towards the overall grizzly population. That in my book is smart sound management.

    I hunt just about everything that is legal to hunt but my specialty is turkey, waterfowl, deer, boar, predator.

    I hunt hogs with my Kishu kens and also bowhunt. Not sure where you're located but if you are near San Diego, you are always welcome to hunt where I hunt. There nothing like putting meat in the freezer that you harvested your self. And it's much more healthier.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • the situation in Alaska is much more complex than it appears, and really has very little to do with sound wildlife management and animal counts (which can't even be done accurately in a place like Alaska). It has to do with a lot of money (the tags for big game hunting bring in A LOT of money, and additionally, there is plenty of money to be made in guiding and flying out hunters to remote locations). So there is pressure to have more opportunities for that kind of hunting, but then the average urban Alaskan wants to get a moose every year, and then all of this has to be balanced against Native subsistence hunting (ie. people who really subsist off hunting still and who live off the road system), and the conflict between "sport" hunters and subsistence hunters is particularly nasty and often flat out racist in the arguments made. So you bring all this in and all this has to be balanced with game populations, and you can see how there is much pressure for predator control. In general, I've been astounded at how bad some of the decision made by fish and game have been, because in fact it's not just the wildlife biologists who get to make these decisions, but it is the game board, which is often heavily represented by sport hunting lobbyists. so in Alaska, it becomes a big political flash point.

    I don't see the point of hunting wolves in the lower 48 at all, and that includes Yellowstone, and certainly here in NM. As for coyotes, well, they are certainly legal to hunt, and I'm fine with that. Like Ayk and Brad, I'm concerned about predators that are not afraid of humans, and coyotes are not here at all.

    And don't fool yourself. They're not just getting little dogs. My (35 pound) Shiba was attacked by coyotes in the yard. A coyote has strolled right up to me walking my big fat Shiba too, and then finally decided to lope away at the last minute. My vet had a case a couple of years ago where people who live near me saw coyotes attack their lab-and the coyotes did run when the people came out. The lab died.

    There are about 300,000 coyotes in NM (I was astounded when I saw that number!) I suspect we can do with a few less, though I still always believe animals should be hunted and killed in the most humane ways, so I'm not in favor of poisoning and am dubious about trapping (even though I grew up in Alaska where it is still common). And I don't like the hunters that go after coyotes with dogs and then let the dogs rip the coyotes apart. Shoot them and make it quick.

    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    @shibamistress Wow those coyotes are vicious! You may want to consider carrying a gun or collapsible baton on your walks...
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
  • I just carry pepper spray. We've also had some bears. Now that really does scare me--sow and cubs! (Another thing I took away from growing up in Alaska: a very healthy respect (ok fear!) of bears!

    (And I should say I'm in what is considered a kind of rural suburb of ABQ--in the mountains, but less than 20 mins away from the city)
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2013-02-23 02:38:45
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3006
    There nothing like putting meat in the freezer that you harvested your self. And it's much more healthier.

    I agree with that.

    I've seen comments on dogster and really I'm about done messing on that forum it's annoying with the people who think they know it all. :\

    Comments I seen were like we have farmer's, butchers and grocery stores there is no reason to hunt besides for sport.. My jaw drops when I see comments like that..

    I mean go buy a wild Alaskan salmon and a farmed salmon grill same way same seasoning and tell me which taste better!

    Compared to farmed salmon Alaskan salmon taste like gold.

    Pricey, but worth it for once in while treat. We got a big thing of it fed me and my mom for two days for dinner.. Saya and Bella each got tiny bit of unseasoned cooked salmon for training treat they each got 1oz.

    I've tasted deer, Canadian goose, duck, and dove yummy I think I prefer dove over the other two birds.

    I've even had grass fed beef it wasn't the highest grade of steaks I forgot it was kinda in the middle of steaks it tasted great like one from fancy restaurant had good flavor with minimal seasoning.

    I get grass fed beef tongue for Saya and it looks much more appetizing than the beef tongue at walmart..

    Yeah some hunt for sport and stuff, but some do it to feed their family and friends.. My brother gets deer from his wife's cousin's they all share.

    I watch yukon man it's interesting show they were hunting moose to get meat to last them for the winter.. The wife or daughter I was half asleep so I forgot. Anyways she says they once saw a moose carcass in the water that had it's rack or whatever taken off. Sad someone would discard so much meat like that. :(

    One thing to point out this country has changed so darn much compared to the old days bison used to be in more areas, and many other animals. Roads have caused a lot of issues for animals coyotes, deer, raccoons and so on.. I see dead coyotes on road from being hit, or deer and usual road kill. Sad.. :(

    I try not to drive out at night because danger of deer my mom hit one she wasn't going fast luckily so the deer just got grazed and it ran off mom watched and it seemed alright.

    When I'm out at night I think to my self no wonder cars hit deer there is so many cars going by a deer or herd of deer has barely any chance of crossing the road safely.

    The cars just keep going.. :\

    I'm sure our highways, and roads have messed up deer migration a lot.

    I also have been seeing a lot of farm land for sale and some got bought out guess what they put in. cookie cutter houses.. I call them that as the houses are not well made and some look the same and so on.

    We had some high winds once and bit of siding came off.

    We don't need any more houses when there still many for sale.. ah well.

    we keep tearing down fields, farm land, and woods guess what coyotes and deer will have no choice, but to move in.. I seen deer in town before.

    Like shibamistress said coyotes aren't going to only go for chihuahuas, Pomeranian and dachshunds there been issues with rotties, labs and other big breeds.

    Shiba inu isn't that big of a dog..

    Ones in my area seem less brazen as I'm more in country where there is less people feeding stray cats and we keep trash cans secure.

    I don't think a coyote won't hurt my dogs I'm sure if they feel threatened or are hungry they will try go for my dogs.

    Most local Indiana coyote attacks seem happen when owner lets their dog out at night alone in a unfenced yard. That is a recipe for disaster and the owner should never leave a small or big dog alone like that especially when they live by the woods and in town even.

    I remember Brada's neighbor in their previous home their lab was in trouble coyotes were going for her.

    Coyotes aren't only out at night too I seen them during the day. Usually in the field or deep in the woods by the creek.

    I do think some people need stop habituating coyotes stop feeding feral cats if they're feral the cats will hunt for themselves.. be more humane if the people would catch the cats and get them fixed. I caught one and turned into the shelter it was intact and a intact cat breeds like rabbits.

    I seen a mom cat she had litter of kittens where I worked and she caught rabbits and rock pigeons to feed the kittens.. some workers started to feed them kibble. I'm like why do that they're taking care of the pigeons since everyone hates those flying rats..

    Sorry go bit off topic. :\

    I don't really know right answer, but like I said world is changing so much it is sad.

    I do wish people would take more interest in nature at times my cousin's are scared of even a box turtle. :\




    Photobucket
    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • I have a hard time reconciling the notion that an animal should have a fighting chance, hunting should be fair and sporting, etc with the desire to kill humanely. A humane kill is as efficient and trauma free as possible. That's not a brutal hunt to the death where the animal has a "fair" chance against a lone hunter and his tools. Overuse and political motivations aside, high powered rifles from great distance such as helicopters is highly efficient and not inhumane. Yeah it's not fun or sporting -- but killing shouldn't be fun. It's something that sometimes needs to be done. When hunting on foot with or without dogs is more effective, then that makes sense. But I don't like the idea of a hunter not using all of the tools at his disposal for an efficient clean kill just to have a little more challenge.

    As a side note, real predators don't do that. A bear kills the best way it can, and doesn't care about having a little sport with its meal.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
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    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2013-02-23 12:09:24
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    @poeticdragon - I agree with your sentiment on using the least stressful and most humane way to kill game. However your point about "real predators" is actually not correct. There are many documented cases of apex predators playing with their prey before killing them - and in some cases they do not even consume the prey they played with.





    I know that there are accounts of Polar Bear and Brown Bear, as well as Tigers, playing with their prey too, but I cannot not find video of it...
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    Also apex predators prey on other apex predators...

  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    And in some cases, they don't wait for the animal to die before starting to eat them.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    I was just coming back on to add that same thought @ayk!

    Coyote, Wolf, and big cat usually consume their prey while still alive - whereas humans kill our prey long before we consume it.

    So which is more stressful, being stalked by a dog and then knifed or shot, or being stalked by a Coyote or Wolf and then being eaten while still alive?
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    @poeticdragon I disagree, hunting itself in the modern age is no longer a "need" based activity. It is a challenge based activity/sport where you are using your own skills (and if using a dog, then teamwork and training) to overcome an adversary, whether by gaining the element of surprise or using one's skill at shooting to overcome the prey's defenses. Ex. flushing birds and having to be a good shot, learning woodscraft to stalk or attract deer. If it was a matter of feeding one's family or dying of starvation then I would agree with you. There are PLENTY of hunters who would be willing to hunt big game, whose population has started to take hoofed animals below the desired population levels, by non-mechanical methods. No reason to make it an industrial process. If people want the option to simply press a button to put an animal down with no challenge then they should go volunteer at a city animal shelter.
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
    Post edited by cezieg at 2013-02-23 13:47:38
  • I was thinking about that a bit myself, just based on my domestic animal experience--thinking about how often cats and dogs play with prey before they kill it. My Shibas pretty much do eat what they kill (unless it is a reptile) but there is a whole lot of playing with it first. I know those are domestic animal examples, and domestic animals who are not hungry, so therefore can have the luxury of not eating it first, but I suspect it is not just domestic dogs and cats that do this.

    One of the things I have not liked about the aerial hunts in Alaska is that they have harassed the animals from the air for a long time before they shoot them (I suspect they need to tire them so they can get a good shot). I have issues with that, but then again, I'm not in favor of aerial hunting, in general.

    and @cezieg...yes, most modern age hunting as we think of it is not need based, but even in the US there are places people still hunt for subsistence. Native people in Alaska and Canada of course, but I suspect other places. And of course, world wide, there are still plenty of subsistance hunters. I know you're talking about in general in north america, but I wanted to add that. ;)

    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2013-02-23 13:52:35
  • @brada1878 I perhaps phrased it poorly. I know animals play with their food or kill for reasons other than food. As mentioned, cats of all sizes do it a lot. But what I meant is that an animal doesn't handicap itself to make things more fair or sporting. It may handicap itself to draw out the kill, but if there's a chance the prey will get away or hurt the predator, its going to use everything its got.

    @cezeig I didn't say there was a need to hunt (not even going to get into it) but yes there is a need to kill. My point is that in the same breath saying things should be sporting/"fair" (eg. handicapping the hunter) and humane (eg. killing efficiently) is difficult for me to reconcile.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
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    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2013-02-23 14:04:53
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3006
    This shows wolf pack hunting bison.. 1:17 very dirty move other bison did to the one the wolves were after..


    Wolf killing male coyote.. :( This tore my mom up I didn't see this before so if I knew I would have fast forwarded it. The female survived..
    This reminds me of packs of dogs on coyotes..


    I saw this one time it aired I think it was frozen planet or something like that.
    Two wolves vs a bison and sadly the wolf gets beaten up very badly. I forgot how it played out haven't seen the whole thing in long time.


    Saya has killed 9 rabbits two were older juveniles who were smaller then adults, but I could tell they were young still.

    Rest where young in nest, but they could run some, but coarse no match for a dog.

    I was around the area when it happened and when she did it she didn't play she grabbed shook hard and killed them pretty quickly. I didn't think a rabbit would build nest right next to house where there is human and dog smells.. I looked it up and sure enough they do that.. I learned my lesson.

    I noticed there were few blood on some, but I think the shaking what got them.

    She has chased adults, but they're pretty fast.

    I did not like way my black cat killed her prey.. She would paw at the baby bunny, let it walk away some pick it up drop it and so on.. I guess that was good as it gave me time to stop her and the rabbit was still alive and ran to the woods.

    Fig was a good hunter though she would bring mice, voles, rabbits, birds, and even moles.. I wish she would just hunt moles and mice not rabbits..

    Coarse she wouldn't eat her kill which is one reason I'm not fan of outdoor cats.

    Going to kill something at least eat it.

    I froze Saya's rabbits and have fed her them and she enjoys them a lot. I'm lucky she lets me take them and she doesn't try to gulp them down.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • wow, that wolf/coyote one was pretty intense, and it had everything in it--ravens, wolves, coyote, even a bald eagle!

    I never thought of freezing the stuff the dogs have killed before letting them have it. That's a good idea when they get bigger stuff, because then it would kill the worms if I froze it long enough. But usually, by the time I realize they have something, they are gulping it down.

    Bel eats birds whole--feathers, bones and all.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    @poeticdragon I didn't say there wasn't a need for it, just that there isn't a life or death need for it. Therefore we don't need the equivalent of driving through a forest shooting whatever deer we see, up to our limit of tags, because otherwise our families will starve. Hunters will do their best to cap out their tags regardless of which method is used. You can bet your bottom dollar that whenever I go and get my deer or hog tag/s that I'm going to do my best to take something home to pack my freezer with good meat.
    With how long it takes them to reproduce, and the amount of willing big game hunters, there will never be enough wolves to warrant going on helicopter sprees. Sure it might take 6 months to cull 60 wolves by non-spree methods, but nature shouldn't be managed by "shocking" populations anyways. Therefore the values and sport of hunting should be maintained vs reducing it to an act of mass killing.
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1806
    I've been watching this thread for a hot minute because I really like the ideas being tossed around. I don't really have as strong a stance on the subject (though I do have some opinions), so I like seeing everyone discuss it.


    Not gonna lie, that video with the coyote made me feel a type of way. I wasn't expecting something that nitty-gritty real-life and it reminded me of when London gave chase to a coyote. I'd never seen London act so aggressively - it was one of the most frightening moments in my life because I THOUGHT it was someone's dog. I still remember how haunting it was when I realized it wasn't. I didn't know if I should feel relieved or even more frightened.

    There was no doubt in my mind that there would be blood when he caught up to that sucker. His hackles were up from nose to tail, I'd never seen something so wild out of him. So of course, when I watched that video, I just remembered how London looked and how scary that moment was. I felt like I was the coyote in that video for half a second. Jarring.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
    Post edited by Crispy at 2013-02-23 14:29:31
  • @cezeig.....were you addressing that to me? About the life or death need for hunting? I think I was talking about that rather than Poeticdragon. :)

    In any case, yes, there are still subsistance hunters in the US, especially in Alaska and Canada, and by that I mean these people live on what they hunt and they would not live without being able to hunt. That's why they are able to hunt out of season in Alaska--because it is really a true subsistance lifestyle.

    I had a Native student once who left college because when his father was killed in a freak accident, there was no one left to hunt for the family, and without him home to do it, his family would have starved (or have to leave the very remote place they had lived for generations). He went home.

    So I would say just because it is different here in the lower 48, don't forget that true subsistance hunters do still exist in North America and in other parts of the world.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    My family need wild game, my kids are like a pack if hungry jackels. I swear they pack together soon as I unload a deer or a hog from the truck and you can see them drewl as I clean out game. Lol. But seriously coyotes are savages when they get ahold of a deer. Last spring I watched four coyotes just tear this deer apart as it was screaming and trying to get away, nature is definitely not pretty.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    @poeticdragon - I agree, they (wild predators) don't handicap, as far as I know, to make it more sporting.

    I guess what struck me in your post, that made me get back into this conversation (which I had been avoiding), is that there is often this thought process among people of how "natural order" and "natures way" is fair and balanced in some way that humans are not...

    I realize now that you were not implying that, @poeticdragon, but at first I thought you were and this was my response.

    We had a discussion a long time back where I lost my cool a bit and ended up losing a forum member over a debate. So, that it why I typically don't post my real feelings on subject like this now.

    All I wanted to point out with my post is that nature is not fair, and many of things that happen on a daily basis in nature are pretty horrible things. We talk about our use of tools to hunt making it unfair, but monkeys use tools to hunt too, and to hurt each other. We aren't the only ones on the planet who play dirty.

    Nature's balance is a 10,000 foot view - and from up there it seems very nice and kind - and balanced. But I'm sure if animals could talk they wouldn't agree. I'm sure Elk and Deer would complain about all the animals who want to savagely eat them while they are still living - if they have/had the cognitive ability to comprehend fairness, I'm sure they'd say it's not fair... It's all pretty ugly when you get down in the trenches I guess.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    Hmmmm... So, this is interesting.



    That's a dirty game.
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    @shibamistress Nope! I was addressing that the stance that there is no need to hunt, but there is a need to kill. My group of gaming buddies online are almost all from Alaska and they talk about going out for moose and other things. I've also been watching a lot of Flying Wild Alaska (pretty neat show!) and that's shown a lot of the villages that are completely cut off outside of airplanes. That's pretty intense! Living down in the lower 48 it's hard to imagine that. I can definitely see their need to pick up whatever meat they can come across in times of need.

    @brada1878 Yeah I hear you on how it is a touchy subject. I browse reddit quite often and any time someone questions predator hunting on the hunting subreddit there will be a ton of kneejerk defenses and personal attacks to whoever asked about it. One of the main reasons I haven't asked about big game hunting motivations on there.
    I've mostly stopped losing my temper in debates upon taking this quote to heart... and walking away for a few mins before coming back to re-edit a post on a touchy subject before posting haha.
    "You are educated when you have the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or self-confidence." -Robert Frost
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
  • sjp051993sjp051993
    Posts: 1605
    I witness something today that hit me kinda hard at first. A local sportsman club has what they call Coyote drives. I had never really paid much attention to it until today. Today happened to be one of the drives. They had hunters spread out through several fields. Those hunters waited there while another group drove the coyotes from behind. I am not sure what they were using to drive the coyotes, it ust caught me of guard to be driving down the road and all these hunters in blaze orange holding rifles spread out along the edge of the field. They were all about 50-100 yards away from the edge of the road. Coyotes are getting bad around here and I completely agree their population needs to be checked. They are becoming way to comfortable around people and are preying on pets.
    Stacey living with Tora, Kazue, Ritsu and Kuma the Shiba
    www.suteishiikennels.com

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  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    @cezieg - That's a great quote!
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    I am a little reserved about some of the rhetorics of predator-hunting advocated by anti-wolf groups. For example, whenever the ungulate populations drop-- the first thing hunters do is blame the wolves or coyotes. However, after a few months, research often offer a different reality.

    Recently, Finland's moose population fell to a record low and small calves were common. Of course, people blamed the wolves and lynxes. Research has shown that moose were accidentally ingesting snails because of an unusually wet and warm summer and became infested with meningitis.

    Or the time people blamed the Canadian lynxes for the decline in the caribou population in Newfoundland and Labrador: when snowshoe hares were introduced to the area so the local people have something to eat, the snowshoes competed with the native Arctic hares and caused the Arctic hare population to decline. When the snowshoe hare population crashed after reaching the carrying capacity, the lynxes turned to the caribou out of desperation and starvation. The lynxes ended up starving anyway, since the species was too much of a hare specialist unable to kill the caribou and left many of the caribou calves dying of infections. This probably wouldn't had happened if the snowshoe hares wasn't introduced; but if the snowshoe hares were not introduced, then the people wouldn't have enough protein to work efficiently in the fishing industry. Catch-22.

    Another instance I could think of is when people blamed foxes and coyotes for the decline in rabbit and quail populations. The reality was when Americans left the farms in the 1940s and 1950s, the land was no longer being maintained and the rabbits and quails thrived. When the forests began growing back in the 1970s and 1980s, the quail and rabbit populations declined. Of course, we now know that in the rewilding eastern United States, elks, martens and fisher-cats are coming back to their historical range.

    Similarly, research on the changing ecology, particularly the woodland caribou, in northern Alberta as the result of the tar-sands development project is causing the non-hunters to be angry at the depredation advocates.

    However, I am not anti-predator hunting. Lots of people depended on coyotes for their fur. Some ranchers will not touch a coyote the rest of the year, but will employ shooters for any coyote which ventured close to the calves during birthing season. The coyotes who are wise enough to stay away don't get shot.

    Also, some populations such as Black Bears are exploding because they are now feasting on landfills and dumpsters. The bears are also learning not to fear humans since they are going into settlements to take advantage of our human waste. Not to mention bear-meat is commonly consumed in the Northeast United States and in the Pacific Northwest, bear-meat is often used for dog-food.

    Or if you are living in the Northwest Territories, a trapper is dependent on the price of lynxes, wolverines, martens and other game-animals to survive the year. He is also not going to waste the meat. Apparently, lynx-meat is very good.

    So, I am not anti-predator hunting. However, I am skeptical of some of the claims made by anti-wolf, anti-coyote, or anti-cougar groups. Why? Every time research points to something else other than predators being the problem, it gives hunters a black eye and gives the anti-hunting crowd more ammunition why hunters are stupid in their eyes.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2013-02-24 11:19:33
  • Great post, Souggy! I agree with your reservations about some of the rhetoric. The lynx/snowshoe hare link is (now) fairly well-known--lynx being a fairly specialized hunter of the hares, so I was surprised to think that people actually thought they preyed on caribou. But it sounds like this happened awhile ago? In any case, it was quite interesting!

    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    It happened after the mid-19th century when the Newfoundland government introduced snowshoe hares. Newfoundland and Labrador historically didn't have snowshoe hares, so the main prey was Arctic hare. It is very seldom that shoeshoe hares' and Arctic hares' natural range overlaps within the range of Canadian Lynx. Also, because Canadian Lynx are a snowshoe specialist, their carrying capacity is very low in the range of the Arctic hares.

    However, since the landscape never had a population of snowshoe hares, the new species easily over-populated in a new ecosystem. So, by early 1900s, the population crashed. Surprisingly, it turned out both snowshoe hares and Arctic hares have a ten-years cycle. then the lynx, whose carrying capacity increased after the introduction of the snowshoes, turned to the caribou calves. However, the lynxes couldn't kill the calves so most of the young caribou died of diseases. This scenario is common example in textbooks for when two species competing for the same niche (snowshoe hares and Arctic hares) have an impact the apex predators.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    Here is a video that is somewhat related to this topic (and interesting)...

  • Hinata23Hinata23
    Posts: 1444
    @brada1878 That was super neat! Thanks for sharing :)
  • sjp051993sjp051993
    Posts: 1605
    Awesome post Brad! Thanks a bunch.
    Stacey living with Tora, Kazue, Ritsu and Kuma the Shiba
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  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    Great posts @souggy :) That's pretty interested and I never knew about that! I think it's very much a knee-jerk, oversimplification when the fast choice is made to reduce predator numbers. One of the reasons I'm very against predators being tagged out in large quantities without legitimate study.

    @brada1878 Great video! Makes me want to move out to Saskatchewan and take up ranching instead of programming :D Really cool to hear about the different roles that each breed takes upon itself.
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
  • "we put spike collars on them. It really helps mitigate the pack interactions, so we felt we also needed to protect the younger dogs especially as they grow up in the pack situations and so things didn't get carried on too far."

    This sounds like the spike collars are intended to keep the dogs from fighting among themselves?
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    @WrylyBrindle - I heard that too and was kinda a taken back by it. Tho I also kinda found it interesting as I had not considered using those collars in that way. Made me wonder if that is the origin of the typical mastiff (decorative) spike collar...
  • Odd thing about the spike collar: after my vet has had to patch up Toby after too many incidents of Bel getting loose and attacking him, she suggested I get a spike collar for him, something serious, so at least if it happened again, Bel couldn't get at his neck (where she does tend to bite). So yeah, maybe some people do use them that way?

    (And yeah, I do consider it....)
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 1050
    @WrylyBrindle @brada1878 @shibamistressThat is pretty interesting that they use the spike collars for that purpose, along with protection while fighting predators I'm sure. It must be no different than people, sometimes getting so involved in a fight/argument that one just sees red. Along with not having constant human oversight, so the dogs settle their disputes among themselves.

    I still can't get over how gorgeous that countryside is.
    Ren, Kai Ken (f, intact) 02-01-2012
    Kirin, Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (f, intact) 05-04-2015
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    @cezieg

    For the ethic of hunting apex predators, consider reading "Monster of God" by David Quammen. He made the case Romanians only tolerated brown-bears because of the money from trophy-hunting, or otherwise the species would had been hunted by sheep-shepherds to extinction. Same thing for saltwater crocodiles: Australians only tolerated them during the 1970s because of the leather industry and so on; otherwise the saltwater crocodiles would been extinct.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2013-03-01 14:02:38

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