Article re: geneticists research on dogs and ability to digest carbs

rikumom

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-how-dogs-evolved-20130124,0,1620029.story

@dogmom8 posted this on Facebook, I'm curious what the folks who only feed prey model raw or no-grain diet thinks about it. We feed 50% raw BARF (primarily green beef tripe blends) and 50% dehydrated raw/grain-free kibble. Potato and tapioca starch appears to be what holds our pups kibble together. Vets have always say our dogs are in great shape (~12yr old and ~7 month old)

jellyfish

I still stand by the belief that dogs are obligate carnivores, so while I think that a dog's diet should consist somewhat of carbs, the majority of the diet should be an animal protein source.

The stated 40%-50% carbs is outrageous and I would like to see the author of this article recommend a "high grain kibble". Does it make since feed a specimen with sharp canine teeth corn for half of its diet? Look at the way the dog is built: it is built to eat meat.


As far as the rest of the article, very fascinating! Thanks for sharing!

WrylyBrindle

I think the watchword for dogs is "adaptability"- meaning that there's no need to bend oneself into a pretzel over the best diet for dogs- they are not cats, but they arent people either. They need a meat-based diet, but they can do really well on different diets. My friend Adam has an dog that just turned 18- a medium sized shepherd looking mix- and he has hiked wiht him all over the country and always fed him (blech) grocery store dog food. He has lived long and well and had no illness or allergies on food I'd never choose for my guys. Because dogs can do well on a variety of diets- that's why they endure. I know a vet who's dog lived for 15 years on kibbles and bits of all things. Yet, there's dogs that do crappy on that feed. Our old neighbor's golden was fed beneful, and the poor guy was hyper and had horrible ear infections. If they coudl get him off the corn, I think he;d have been much better off, and maybe he would do best on raw, but maybe- like Reilly- he doesnt have to go to that far to feel a lot better.

My stripeys eat some raw, some tripe, some canned, some THK, mostly kibble, (occasional grainfree, but usually not). I feed 3 of them higher protein diets, Reilly seems to get very thin when she doesnt get enough protein, and used to have bad allergic reactions to corn & wheat, so she eats high on the hog. The two kai seem to super on anything I give them, but I reject wheat and corn for all my guys. I feed Sage low protein (Calif Natural Herring & sweet potato 21% crude protein)- because he thrives on it- he feels full, he feels happy, he is healthy. His behaviorists at Tufts (3 of them) all recommended I tone down the rocket fuel, and I could do that wihtout sacrificing quality, so I have and it is borne out in his health and well being. He's strong, energetic and has a thick glossy healthy coat and big white teeth. He's almost 7 years old.

There's many ways to feed dogs well- like us, their strength is their ability to thrive on many different foods, live in many different environments. I think seeing the dog here before you is preferential to getting caught up in dogmatic principles.

rikumom

Jelly, your comment had me checking the carb % in the grain-free kibble we buy...

California Natural grain free, kangaroo with red lentil, 42.96% carb NFE
California Natural grain free, venison, 43.43% carb NFE
Orijin 6 fish, carb (max) 25%
Earthborn Holistic® Coastal Catch Carbohydrates - 29.0%

The following brands don't include % carb in the nutritional analysis on their websites:
Taste of the Wild
FirstMate
Fromm
Nature's Variety
Pure Vita
Addiction
Merrick

I checked Dogfoodadvisor.com, TOTW and Fromm grain-free are about 36 and 38% carb on a dry matter basis, Nature's Variety Instinct is 29%

I guess even though all the kibble I buy is grain free, the carb content varies from 25% to 43% depending on brand.

Losech

Since I have not been able to read the actual study myself, I do not have a real opinion on the matter, but I agree entirely with everything @Wrylybrindle said. Sums up my thoughts pretty well.
I currently feed Conker half kibble and half raw foods. He doesn't eat any one particular brand exclusively since I am trying various ones out, and I also like to rotate because every brand has different levels of nutrients. Before I started testing out kibbles, he was on a 100% homemade diet that consisted mainly of raw meats, bones, and organs, as well as oatmeal and occasionally rice or some other grain. He did not get fruits or veggies as a regular part of his diet. Why the grains? Cause he does better when he's got a small amount of carbs in his diet than completely without. He is at his best when the carbs are between 10-15% of his diet. The other two dogs do fine with more carbs, but their condition is better with no more than 35%. They currently eat Diamond Naturals and also get rawfoods every day, but not as much (percentage wise) as Conker.

@rikumom Grain-free is not carb-free, contrary to what a lot of people seem to think. I've had some folks get real ticked off when I told them that their "high protein" (25%) grain-free food was mainly carbs, and they corrected me by stating grain-free food doesn't have carbs in it. It really comes down to how much meat is in the kibble, grain-free or not, and the overall protein and fat levels are what determine the carb levels. A lot of grain-free foods don't have as much animal protein as you'd think either. Pea flours and proteins (for example) are used to boost the protein levels up and it makes it seem like there is more meat in the kibble than there actually is.

@jellyfart Maned wolves have long sharp canines and they are omnivores. But they lack the crushing carnassials that dogs and wolves have. If dogs were true omnivores like Maned wolves are, you'd think they wouldn't have those big teeth in the back.
(I think you mean opportunistic carnivore, not obligate. Obligate carnivores like cats must eat meat and have absolutely no use for plants. Opportunistic carnivores like wolves and coyotes eat a meat-based diet, but can utilize nutrients in some plant foods if necessary.)

PoetikDragon

If dogs were true omnivores like Maned wolves are, you'd think they wouldn't have those big teeth in the back.

That isn't how evolution works. A species doesn't lose a trait simply because it has no use for it. It loses a trait only if there is an advantage to not having it and selective breeding or natural selection heavily favors the individuals with that advantage.

Calia

That isn't how evolution works. A species doesn't lose a trait simply because it has no use for it. It loses a trait only if there is an advantage to not having it and selective breeding or natural selection heavily favors the individuals with that advantage.

LoL, that reminds me of how snakes and whales still have leg bones, or that humans have an appendix even though none of these species uses those parts anymore.

Though I'm kind of confused about @Losech's big teeth comment, as those giant molars are really useful when breaking bone.

Heidi

I think dogs' diets are more similar to coyotes than wolves, which makes total sense because they both live well in proximity to humans. They both eat mostly meat, but can eat and digest pretty much anything they find. I have heard the argument sooo many times that dogs must have the same diet as wolves because they are 'essentially the same species' and can interbreed. The same is true of coyotes, though, and their evolutionary history is a lot more like a coyote's than a wolf's. Both dogs and coyotes can attribute their success to their adaptability. They both hunt AND scavenge. They both have diverse diets.

About teeth - carnassials are for slicing, not crushing (they're like scissors). Maned wolves DO have a carnassial pair, they're just reduced. Maned wolves still eat about 50% meat, which is quite a bit, and puts them in the mesocarnivore category.

Omnivores, like bears (only 15% meat, which is mostly insects), have bunodont dentition. They still have very large canines, even though they don't eat very much meat, and they don't eat large animals unless they're scavenging. Their cheek teeth (premolars and molars) aren't flat, they have four distinct points, but aren't as sharp as carinvores' and lack the carnassial pair.

Also, non-meat matter isn't all the same. Fruit, tubers, fungi, and similar items don't need to be ground up that much. They only need to be chewed crudely compared to really coarse, fibrous matter. Really flat teeth, like you see in a cow, are because they eat grass - which is incredibly hard to digest and needs to be ground so much that they absolutely need those flat teeth.

Other purposes for teeth should be taken into consideration as well. Consider animals who are 100% herbivorous and have pronounced canines (water deer). Teeth are used for fighting and for sexual selection (like antlers).

My conclusion: What dog dentition says is that they eat a lot of meat - it doesn't say they eat ONLY meat. Even animals who eat only 70% meat are considered hypercarnivores and will typically have full carnivore dentition, including carnassial teeth.

Saya

Good post WrylyBrindle. I agree 100%

Grain free or grain kibble is good, but quality of ingredients is what important when I look for kibble for Bella. I make sure there is no gluten, corn or byproduct or unnamed protein sources.

She does enjoy some fruit as treat, but she has limit she only eats tiny amount. Mango, blueberries, raspberries, banana, pear, peach, and apples are her favorites. Sometimes she doesn't want it.

One thing with veggies or potatoes you need be careful with arthritis as nightshade can be bad for that. also some veggies can bind with nutrients so need be sure to feed right combo of veggies I'm not sure if potatoes or rice does that..

"Warning: If your animal is having any symptoms of arthritis, inflammation, respiratory problems or any other conditions that involve swelling or mucous, stay away from the nightshade family (potatoes, tomatoes, peppers and eggplant)."
http://www.dogaware.com/diet/freshfoods.html

I Follow prey model guideline of 80% meat(half red and half white), 10% bone, 5% liver, 5%other secreting organ(kidney,thymus, rocky mountain oysters, and pancreas).

I agree with @hondru too I feel dogs are a lot like coyotes in diet, very adaptive and opportunistic..

Here's fun picture.
Dharma enjoying pumpkin

Bicho or Kanti taking the lid off the pumpkin. I need check back of the picture.


They put various treats in the pumpkins like pig ears and some other yummy stuff..

The wolves enjoys the contents and some eat some of the pumpkin too.

The staff have even offered veggies they grown in their own garden to see if they'd play with them or eat it.

The veggies wasn't too interesting. Once the staff put it down they left it alone just a sniff and they left. It was raw though.

To me the study shows that dogs are very adaptable.

I feel people should feed their dogs way they feel the dog does well on and what works for them. Not everyone can feed raw diet, home made. grass fed or free ranged meats isn't needed grocery are fine too.. coarse grass fed and free ranged have some different nutrients.

That is why I love wild game like deer, dove, goose, or duck.

Some feel barf diet is best raw type diet and some feel prey model raw diet, or frankenprey or whatever raw diets out there.

I feel prey model is best and it works for Saya pretty well. she gets other stuff like honest kitchen, caned dog food. I feed what works for her. I try keep supplements at minimal. Saya only gets joint supplements and sometimes coconut oil and fish oil, but not every week.

She is active and good endurance and goes on 2hour hikes climbing up and down difficult terrain with ease.. Plus she gets training and agility and recall work.. She gets small walk in am then the 2hr later on. Coarse that means nothing.