Assumptions about puppy socialization

I know that its important for a puppy to learn canine social skills from its mother and litter mates. In particular people talk about bite inhibition and that another puppy would squeal or yelp if bitten too hard. They are supposed to learn not to bite too hard from this as well as other play behaviors. My question is... what if the dog is just a jerk?

An adult dog can figure out how rough is too rough, even if it didn't play with siblings. The question is whether or not the dog cares that its too much. Knowing its too rough and doing something about it (eg. moderating the behavior) are two different things. How does the early socialization make the dog more empathetic to other dogs?

What do you do if you have a puppy who doesn't seem to care and doesn't relent when its other litter mates complain about its rough play? Is that puppy just an asshole and always will be?

Comments

  • edited December 2012
    Very interesting question.

    I suspect both age and whether or not the puppy "values" play has a lot to do with whether the prospective owner/guardian/parent should attempt to model or shape the a-hole behavior.

    We've been seeing a pup in our pup social that look to be a mixed breed Shephard/Akita, same age as my JA pup. She was shy to begin with but started to develop dog aggression a month ago (playing too rough, bullying other dogs and don't know when to back off). Two weeks ago the owner was told to leave pup social, both Sat and Sunday sessions.
    - The trainer said sometimes it's just the dog's personality. Once they hit 13 weeks, the personality is set.

    Please note that before the pup was asked to leave, the pup was given time outs immediately after the undesirable behavior started. Usually dogs that value play will then know they did something wrong. If they want to continue playing, they have to stop what they were doing before.

    Another training facility we go to for social will put vests (or ThunderShirts, or AceBandages) on dogs to calm them down when they start to get too excited. This seemed to work well in our case. Here's a picture of Meichan modeling...


    IMHO, socialization should be a life-long process... some to help the dog behave better among his own kind, some to help the dog behave better in human society (i.e., do not herd small kids as if they're sheep, lawn mowers are not worth barking at, do not go next door and kill the neighbors cat, etc)

    ps. given I don't breed, my above comments probably don't apply to the original question... I guess I'm one of those paranoid dog parents that hate it when people say oh you have an Akita, it's a fighting/guard dog and just want to prove them wrong
  • edited December 2012
    There are variations in temperament even within the same litter. Some animals can be a bit more of a jerk than others and unrelenting. Siblings can be real "jerky" as they compete for resources. However, if they are in with other or larger well socialized dogs, the older dog often will interrupt too rough of play. It just depends on the dynamic of the animals. If not, we as a family will redirect behaviors or find a better dynamic for the said "jerk" with a better canine partner match (lol).

    Agreed socialization should continue over the life of the animal as part of enrichment.

    Dogs do learn from each other so anything is fair game in the learning process but pairing appropriately is really important : )

    Snf
  • I think some of it could just be sibling rivalry. Toki always plays really really rough with Zuma, but thats just their playing style with each other. Toki has always played very well with other dogs. He used to be a puppy with not many dog social skills and the occasional older dog would correct him. Didnt take much for him to learn how to be polite. He is a smart dog and I think most dogs want to fit in with everyone, asshole or not. Of course your question is how to deal with the "exception", but I think maybe some puppies are just more stubborn than others.
  • I was thinking about this, too, because of a question on the NK forum about the Shiba puppies who were really being super aggressive to each other. I also remember having conversations with Lindsay about the "old style" Shibas (particularly Japanese Shibas) who were like this. I very much suspect my male Shiba was one of these--the breeder was quite eager to get him in his new home, and I got him at 7 weeks (this had to do with some scheduling issues as well--it was not JUST that she wanted to get rid of him!) I met the litter, and the other two, much smaller puppies wanted nothing to do with him. The first thing he did upon meeting another dog (a month older GSD pup) was fight with him, and that has pretty much been his attitude with other dogs for his entire life. (This would be Toby we're talking about, of course!)

    I do feel, though, if I had known how to manage his behavior better and worked on early socialization better, I might have had a slightly less reactive dog than I ended up with. But I do think a lot of his early behavior was just how he is.

    So I think Snf is making good points--the older, well socialized dogs will interrupt rough play, or should, as should the human family. I don't think leaving the pup in the litter longer makes the puppy have more empathy--I think that it is that the adult dogs, esp. the mother, will interrupt overly rough play more often in those last weeks with her, and that MAY help.

    Of course, if the rough pup goes into an only dog home, I would imagine the new family would have to work even harder to make sure the dog didn't continue this kind of behavior, because it is the adult dogs that are going to do best, I would think, in keeping the overly rough puppy in line. But if there are no other dogs to do this, the dog may never really learn how to behave appropriately with other dogs.

    There was a very rough puppy in our puppy class, and the (very good) trainer finally suggested the couple find some older steady dogs to socialize the puppy with. They did this, and I met the dog again about 2 months later, and noticed she was much better behaved with other dogs. She still played rough (her and Leo loved to play with each other) but she was no longer nearly as inappropriate (like snapping at other dogs, getting in their face, etc). They said having her play with some adult dogs who corrected her rudeness really helped.
  • I agree with what @StaticNfuzz wrote WRT "However, if they are in with other or larger well socialized dogs, the older dog often will interrupt too rough of play. It just depends on the dynamic of the animals." -- That is where having well socialized younger adult dogs can be very helpful and why our pups spend so much time with certain dogs in our in our family - they're the "teachers" not just the babysitters.

    But also I'd like to point out that the puppy who is biting is not the only one learning, the puppy who is being bitten is learning too, which is just as important. The puppy being bitten is learning how to communicate "stop", or learning that, well, some dogs are jerks. It prepares them for later in life when they meet another "jerk dog".

    I actually think the whole bite inhibition thing is a bit overplayed. I think puppies learn bite inhibition very early - like 5-6 weeks. After that I am not sure the littermate interaction is really benefiting them much as far as bite inhibition goes. I think after 6 weeks they start to learn other skills form playing with each other - like how to defuse conflict, how to recognize conflict, how to deal with the "value system", how to deal with stress, coping skills, among other things. The idea of "yelping" when a dog bites you, or getting a pup in puppy class specifically for them to learn bite inhibition is geared more toward rescue pups or pups from poor breeding practices where their littermate socialization was severely limited.

    As for the real important question (IMHO): "What do you do if you have a puppy who doesn't seem to care and doesn't relent when its other litter mates complain about its rough play? Is that puppy just an asshole and always will be?"

    >> When we have a puppy who is too rough, or a puppy who is getting bullied, we will manage them by separating the pups into smaller play groups that play nicer together. Also, if we see a pup who is a bully, we will step in and use negative punishment to curb the behavior - for example - give him/her a time out.

    If you aren't comfortable with the way the pups are playing, you can intervene, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

    ----
  • "Is the puppy just an asshole?"

    This is really a question about Shibas, lol.

    Redirecting them to a toy or picking them up (a time out basically) seems to help with the puppy sibling quarrels for the one "bully" puppy that is just a jerk. A one to one with a reliable patient puppy uncle or aunt helps take the wind out of their little sails in short order.
  • @poeticdragon in our previous (and first) litter we had a little bully, we named him Arashi (storm), he was awful to his sisters and his brother. I really thought he was going to be a troublemaker and instructed the owners to be extra careful with socialization and the rest. He was enrolled in puppy class and socialized extensively and things started to change. Now he is one of the most well mannered pups in that litter (the pups are now little over one year and a half). It also helped that while a youngster (when he was around one 10-11 months old) he spent a few weeks with a very good friend of mine (also our handler) who runs a doggy daycare and dog pension apart from having her own kennel (alaskan malamutes). Interacting with so many dogs of different sizes, breeds, characters has helped him developed into a great dog. It is also important I think to have them interact with adult dogs that know how to put a puppy or youngster in his place.
    We had a similar situation with one of our girls - Tsuki, she was a big bully when she was little, literally terrorised Kito (the brindle male) when he arrived and she was only a month and a half older than him. She improved greatly with socialization, so for me that seems to be the key.
  • @Lindsay....yeah, thats what I thought....this is really about Shibas! *lol*
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