Raw Feeding
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So, I have a few questions. I started feeding my dogs raw about 1 month ago and although their coat color looks better and feels a bit softer, they are REALLY REALLY itchy. I am not sure if it is because of the raw feed, but they do not stop scratching so I am thinking their skin is getting dry (it doesn't look dry - but then again I am unsure as to how dry dog skin would look)?? Is this a side effect of raw feed? I started with only feeding chicken then I integrated goat (which they hated) and then beef ribs, beef liver (which they also did not like), pork neck, pork ribs, still give them chicken thighs and legs. I have not found "organic" chicken hearts yet and I haven't gotten to the level where I am okay with knowing they are eating a bunny. I have browsed and browsed through this forum and have gone on links that deliver raw feed, but the shipping ends up being more expensive than the food itself!!!
Anyway, fish oil was on my mind. I take it. Therefore, my dogs should be able to take it, but how? I read that people give it to them in their food. Do you pop the pills or is it bought in liquid form? Can I give them the same kind I take? Give them 1 pill a day (opposed to two) or ... how does this work?
I use oatmeal shampoo to bathe them and I do not bathe them often. I've read about good smelling Shibas even after 4months of non-bathing, but my little ones are stinky. I deal with it, but even with raw feed I still find that they smell.
Are there effective, holistic, flea meds? I use the same brand I have used since I've had them so I don't think it is that, but maybe ...? They scratch scratch and scratch some more and then lick just as much, which makes it seem as if they got a buzz cut around their legs, butt and tummy.
Any info is appreciated. Thanks!
Anyway, fish oil was on my mind. I take it. Therefore, my dogs should be able to take it, but how? I read that people give it to them in their food. Do you pop the pills or is it bought in liquid form? Can I give them the same kind I take? Give them 1 pill a day (opposed to two) or ... how does this work?
I use oatmeal shampoo to bathe them and I do not bathe them often. I've read about good smelling Shibas even after 4months of non-bathing, but my little ones are stinky. I deal with it, but even with raw feed I still find that they smell.
Are there effective, holistic, flea meds? I use the same brand I have used since I've had them so I don't think it is that, but maybe ...? They scratch scratch and scratch some more and then lick just as much, which makes it seem as if they got a buzz cut around their legs, butt and tummy.
Any info is appreciated. Thanks!
Comments
Conker needs a good deal of fat in his diet or his skin dries out and he gets super itchy. He gets the skin and fat (I don't trim any off) from whatever meat he's eating for the day, as well as a 1200 mg fish oil capsule. Sometimes I add in coconut oil if I've got it on hand, but that does not supply omega 3's like the fish oil. Factory farmed meats don't have much omega 3 in them, and it's good to have a closer ratio of 3's to 6's than not, so I always add in fish oils.
The bigger dogs (50 pounds) would get two capsules a day, but Conker (about 24 pounds or so) gets one.
I do not pop the pills. I just mix them into the food, hide them in a chicken heart or something. (Chicken hearts are great pill pockets.) I use human-grade pills I bought online from a wholesale distributor.
Conker smells on commercial foods, even those like The Honest Kitchen. He does not have a "doggy" smell on raw foods, but I do have to bathe him every now and then since he will develop a general "dog is dirty" smell after a while.
I do not use flea/tick preventives on my dogs, so I'm no help there.
I will definitely try cutting chicken out for about a week and see if their scratching improves.
Should I wait on giving them the fish oil? Rule out the chicken first and then start the fish oil or should I try the fish oil first and if that is not enough then stop the chicken feeding?
Kaori is about 22lbs and Baki is 13lbs ... I am guessing I can give both of them 1 capsule each / per day.
When I had to give Baki pills in the past I just popped them in his mouth. Is that not good?
The vet told me they do not have gag reflexes so it would be okay. He fidgeted a bit, but not too much. Does that build too much anxiety? I didn't have to chase him down or anything.
Yeah, I guess the dog is dirty smell is what I am talking about. Around the 3mth mark I cannot turn my nose to it anymore.
Do fleas not exisit where you live @Losech? lol
I'd probably rule out the chicken first, but it can't hurt to add in fish oil at the same time. It's good stuff and can help the itchy spots somewhat.
You can pop the pills over their food. If my dogs don't pop the pills themselves (sometimes they do, othertimes they just swallow it whole) I will hide it in something or pop it for them.
Vinegar? Can they drink that and not get sick? Do you use shampoo with the vinegar?
Thanks a lot for all this info.
I use vinegar instead of shampoo, unless they are really stinky then I use shampoo as well.
Grizzly Salmon Oil is the one I have now
http://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-All-Natural-Supplement-Pump-Bottle-Dispenser/dp/B0002ABR6E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341552605&sr=8-1&keywords=dog+fish+oil )
Thinking of trying Plato Wild Alaskan Salmon Oil when the current bottle is done:
http://www.bestbullysticks.com/home/bbs/page_638_22/plato_wild_alaskan_salmon_oil___16oz.html
If your Shiba smells, it's ok to bathe it however often you wish.
Costco sells fish oil capsules at good cost which are easy to give whole, as a treat.
Some use is for various things I'm not sure if it helps. I ran out and never got another.. I might get one to try though.
I agree allergy testing can help with figuring if it's environmental or food..
I've given dog salmon oil and people kind the dog brand was grizzly's salmon oil and forgot the brand of the people kind I don't give it often..
People kind is OK.
Do you know of any common plants Shibas are allergic to? Maybe dirt? Kaori started digging and Baki soon followed but I corrected that behavior once I saw Baki hurt his muzzle.
My yard is mostly grass, some trees and one ugly bush.
I may try the diatomaceous earth (food grade) around the yard as well. Hopefully they don't end up being allergic to that.
I plan to start with chicken
What did you start out with and how successful was it. Did you alter any of the parts? Where do you get your meats from?
Sidenote: Anyone ordered from these guys-
http://consumermeats.com/
thanks all
Anywho, nothing special, just whatever's cheapest. Chicken quarters are the bony base, then I use cheap ground beef or beef heart for the meat portion, sometimes pork when on sale, with beef liver as the organs bit. I feed other things too so my version isn't "prey-model" but I did do that for a while. Raw eggs are good, lots of protein and fat, tasty.
No altering, just hacking up and feeding in appropriate amounts for each dog. So if a chicken back is too big for one dog's bone portion, I'll cut it in half and serve it to two dogs.
Chicken backs are mostly bone, so that is why the poop came out as hard dust balls. There is a diagram somewhere here on this forum which indicates the bone and flesh percentages for the different parts of a chicken which I found useful. You'll have to figure out how much organ/meat/bone your dog needs. The poop should be firm, moist with some weight. Add some organ/meat along with the chicken back, I wouldn't feed only chicken backs by themselves.
Don't be discouraged! When we first started, we were constantly analyzing Saigo's poop to see if he was getting too much bone and would adjust his meals accordingly. I'd also toss the scale; feeding raw doesn't have to be an exact science. You'll figure it out as you go along and it's okay to deviate from it once in a while so long as your pup is getting his essentials.
Saigo fluxuates from 67-70lbs and is lean. He is very active ( gets about 2-3 hours of running/pulling exercises a day) and this is what he eats on a typical day:
Breakfast: 1-2 chicken necks, maybe an egg, sweet potato, small piece of cheese or liver
Dinner: 2 chicken quarters or 2 pork chops or 2 beef patties, 1/2-1 lb of tripe and an assortment of hearts, livers, gizzards and maybe 2-3 chicken necks. (total, about 2lbs)
We supplement with a sprinkle of vitamins and he gets 2 fish oil capsules. We get his food from both the grocery store (whatever is on sale) as well as a raw dog food supplier who does tripe and meat blends where they grind up the meats with the bone. The good thing about the blends are that they are the perfect portion of meat:bone.
I would also start slow and incorporate new proteins one at a time. Some dogs do not do well on certain types of protein, or said proteins needs to be in smaller amounts. Doing it slowly will help you more easily observe if your dog has any issues with a particular type of protein. Most prey model feeders (we're closer to BARF when we go full raw, since we allow them the occasional veggies/cheese/treat) don't balance the proportions daily, but do it over the course of a week, if that makes sense.
Also utilize observations you've made previously about eating patterns. Most NK seem to self regulate well on raw, but not all. Adjust amounts from the recommended proportions if you find that your dog tends to eat more or less than is typical. For instance, my girl eats a bit more than my boy even though she is approximately 75% of his weight. I once made the mistake of feeding him the same amount of raw she gets, and had a sick puppy on my hands.
If you look through some of the links posted by @shibamistress and @saya, you'll find that the general proportions for prey-model are 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% non-liver organ meat. You generally feed about 2-3% of your dog's total body weight. This was the balance recommended by our breeder (who feeds raw) and we found that it worked well.
As for sources, everyone uses different ones. I personally I developed relationships with farmers that do the whole pasture raised, humane thing. I was buying parts that were not as popular and they were fond of my dogs, so I paid about the same amount as I would at the grocery store for meat where I knew how it was raised, and how and when it was killed. I also do some of my own butchering and so you can purchase half a pig or a side of cow and get raw parts that way. You can also arrange to have the farmer send it to a butcher that will process it for you. Doing it this way requires a bit more research but is useful if you also do things like make your own sausages or do any meat curing, and it tends to be cheaper.
Ps - kitchen scales are really useful when you bake. It's more accurate than volume and you tend to get better results.
This pic might be helpful for you it shows bone % in chicken parts.
When I give stuff like chicken backs, necks or wings I give boneless meat or organ with it to even it some.
When she was new to raw I gave chicken thighs then drumsticks then bone in breasts. I eventually worked chicken gizzards in and then pork.
I had some trail and error on it had some hard crumbly poop so I figured out and gave more boneless and eventually got routine down on it.
I never ordered from consumermeats looks good on variety though. they sell kidneys which is nice. The walmart near me used to sell beef kidneys that was how I got kidneys when Saya was new to raw and doing good on chicken, pork and beef liver. They stopped carrying it so I went to farmers market as some of the farmers sell stuff like beef and lamb kidneys.
Only online place I ordered from is haretoday I got variety of things first time and second I ordered bunch of whole quail, whole sardines, and whole herring.
I mostly get bone in from butcher, grocery and once in while from local farmer, and boneless I get ground beef from grocery, beef heart from farmer and meat processor, liver, kidneys, tongue from farmer and gizzards from grocery.
Prices varies from state to state. Thymus sells for 2.99$lb here, but some sell it for higher.. Beef is coarse more pricey. I usually just get ground beef rest of my red meat is boneless pork, ground ewe, ground lamb/beef/pork/lamb heart, beef/pork and lamb tongue.. I sometimes get beef stew meat from farmer when they have decent deal on it. The stew meat is still pricey even with deal being that it is grass fed, but I use some of it for my meals and she gets some of it too.
Yeah keep the scale. It's good especially when prepping liver and other secreting organ.
I still use it when prepping the boneless or ground meat. I cut it up into 1oz 3oz to 5oz 6oz etc. Individually freeze it for easy take out.
Hope things improve on the poop end of things.
@violet_in_seville - Thanks for further clarification. I thought muscle meat meant like breasts. Maybe I'm just thinking about the body builders at the gym. Lol
@saya - thanks for all the valuable info. What would you start out feeding a 5mo pup ? I'm thinking wing and thigh? What do you think ?
A chicken wing AND leg/thigh is too much bone. I only feed my pups a wing OR a leg. Since you noted that your dog's feces were like "rocks that can turn into dust",
If you feed too much bone, just give them more meat/organs - Chicken Breast, Chicken gizzard, heard, live, kidney, etc.
@Saya is where I learned all my information from. She has a nice thread on the shiba side that gives you a bunch of information.
Since you are starting out, it will be a bunch of trial and error, but in the end you will find out what schedule works best for your dog. FYI, i feed my dogs day 1 bone with organs, day 2-3 muscle meat, then repeat.
We didn't start Saigo (JA) on raw until 9 months, so unfortunately i'm not able to speak to my experiences on feeding raw to a pup.
When his poops were too firm, we just fed him more meat (removing the bone) and hearts/livers and gizzards. I've never fed wings because I didn't like the sharp ends.
Here is a trick for feeding Hearts/Livers/Gizzards: Grab several ice trays and place the raw hearts, gizzards and livers in each slot. I mix em up so each cube has a bit of each in it. Put the trays in the freezer and when they're frozen, take them out, snap the cubes out and put them in ziploc freezer bags.
For each meal, Saigo gets 1-2 cubes and he LOVES eating them frozen. I don't bother defrosting them. Easy to feed and no gooey guts on the counter!
Also @bootz thanks so much for the tips! I will try the leg. But how many do you give etc?
While it's great that you are exploring the possibility and asking lots of questions, home selected raw feeding does take some time and research whether you are doing prey model raw or BARF. I would say that these are the two main models and you have to see which one you would prefer. Raw feeding, like other diets, need to be tailored to the individual dog, so no one on the forum can actually tell you the exact amounts you should or should not be feeding. We call only tell you general proportions for the type of feeding we each individually do. Since we don't know your dog, its growth rate, eating patterns, expected size, size of dam and sire, any amounts we tell you are at best a wild guess and not as appropriate as you looking at the guidelines and choosing how to apply them. This is especially the case as all the raw feeders that have chimed in on this particular thread own different breeds of NK than you do.
http://rawfeddogs.net/FAQs/
Perhaps check out @Saya's posts on the shiba side. She has posted a good calculator for raw feeding. To reiterate from my post above, the guidelines for prey-model are 2-3% of the ideal adult weight: 80% of that is muscle meat (so what we consider people meat + gizzards, hearts), 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% non-secreting organs (kidney, thymus, etc.).
You need to create a diet yourself, as a starting point, and you should ask yourself a few questions when planning:
- Do I want to do a prey-model diet, a BARF diet, or an adaptation of one or the other?
- How large do I expect my dog to be? Is my dog built more slenderly, or more stockily? What are the builds of the dam and sire? Do I need to adjust for what I expect their adult weight and build should be?
- Does my dog seem to eat more, less, or the same amount as a typical dog of the same age, gender, and breed?
- What are the differences in the nutritional needs of adults and puppies? What adjustments may I need to make with regards to calories, vitamins, and minerals?
But @violet_in_seville basically covered what I said in the post that disappeared...
Going from kibble to raw is a big jump, since you have to invest time.
I went from kibble --> premade --> full raw, and now i'm doing kibble morning, premade/raw at night. Definitely take the time to research as Violet mentioned, since the questions you asked can be answered by reading books or Saya's guide on raw feeding.
Good luck!
Edit for tag @shikoku
http://dogsdinner2.webs.com/