I agree with @lindsayt - the dogs look absolutely uncomfortable and stressed out to me. Towards the end of the video, they start to look really tired (which is normal if they've been training for a while and it was towards the end of the session).
I'm not really clear what the point of making the one dog rest on the other one is aside from showing off, either. That seemed like an unnecessary test to me, but I don't know what they're really hoping to achieve.
I can't really hear the video well, even with my volume turned all the way up, but I didn't like the trainer's body language or all the leash-jerk corrections. At the end, even the owner(?) of the liver pit seems a little confused as to why he's correcting the dog and the trainer doesn't seem to take a lot of time explaining it to him. It sounds more like a "because I said so"... but again, I can't hear all the video clearly.
This video basically looks like a "look how great we are at getting these dogs to listen" thing. Like they are just showing off how well they can make the dogs comply with the use of a prong.
Well, that was a boring video. What so special about it? Are those dogs on drugs? Dog agressive dogs? If they were really so tired after training and really agressive, they wouldn't lay all together in a relaxed way.
Well, first off - not one of those dogs seem to be showing any sort of aggression as the video states and they all look anxious. Why do they all have the pinch collars on? I've never owned a Pit, do they "need" them? I've never been one that likes the use of those collars, but in my adult life I've also never used anything stronger than a snaffle on my horses (gasp) Never had the need to. Anyone know about that, maybe they do????? Also, I didn't agree with the need for making the liver dog lay on the blue one other than what was mentioned above... because the owner can make them do it.... a very unnatural, unnecessary "trick". At the same time the GSD (maybe short haired Belgian Tervuren) looking dog got yanked on AFTER it laid down, why????? The dogs seemed unsure, paying attention to the owners waiting for the next harsh correction rather than an eager attitude of, "what are we doing now/next". There was no fun in it for the dogs. More of an attitude of, " I better get this perfect or I'm going to get yanked on" The only reward was an occasional pat and a good dog. None of the dogs seemed happy to be there. The only tail wags I saw looked like anxious wagging not happy wags and was on the blue Pitt as the liver was on top of it, and on the GSD/Tervuren (which looked like it was really wanting to please) looking dog and on the liver dog on the bench. Oh, and on the bench the one dog got yanked on for raising it's head???? Cuz it was looking expectantly at the person in front of it (it's owner)??? Those dogs don't look happy, but they do look like they are trying their hardest to please with little reward.
@Crispy - The last part of the video, the trainers says - try not to vomit...
(paraphrasing here) (trainer) Correct your dog if you need to. ... (trainer) If she looks like she's gonna make a mistake, go ahead and correct her. ... (trainer) There, correct her (cameraman reaches in and corrects liver pittie) ... (trainer) You just corrected her because she thought about moving. You didn't see it, but I did.
I agree with all of you. The dogs look very uncomfortable and stressed. There is very clear body language from the dogs that says the do not like what they are being asked to do. Just looks like avoidance to me.
This video was posted on Bandog Banter in a thread about "control". The video was posted as an example of proven "higher level" control.
The video seemed stupid to me, and I HATE the stress on the dogs and the training techniques... However, maybe it shows control? I dunno tho. I'm having a hard time seeing anything but "shut down", "avoidance", and "stressed" in those dogs. I don't see "control". Ya know?
I've watched it several times over now, and besides what I stated above I'd have to say that the "trainer" looks more and more like a bully each time giving false rewards to the dogs.
@brada1878 - thank you - that was actually really helpful. I really didn't like the body language the trainer was using, but after your blurb, I had to plug it into my speakers just so I could hear it for myself.
"if she looks like she's going to make a mistake" and "thought about moving" ...I really--I'm sure there's an emote I can use right now for how I'm feeling. Ah, yes, of course there is.
I'm thinking these uncomfrotable positions are arranged on purpose so that all of the dogs become equal...like a neutral territory. It is odd looking. I've never seen a training like that. As for prong collars. I don't use them in agilty where they don't want their movements restrained. The only one that looked really wrong to me was the one dog being put on top of the other dog. I'm amazed however at the one on the bottom never even shifted. That's some dog! I wouldn't go down that road personally.
@brada1878@Crispy- Geesh, I'm sadistically laughing now thinking that if we all got punished each time we THOUGHT about doing something that we shouldn't......lol
@CarabooA - I agree! Seems like a bully to me too. A bully of bullies. (bad pun) lol ... Can you imagine how confused the dog must be if she isn't actually thinking about moving?... She could have been thinking "there's my dad, I love him" *yank*
@Crispy - Right? Apparently this guy can read dog's minds. Just kinda makes me super mad. That's all I can say. lol
@carlikai - Watch it again... The dog on the bottom may not move his torso or head, but his eyes flicker from side to side, his whiskers flare up, and his tail nervously wags. To me it looks like he is afraid to move his body. And the other dog looks very uncomfortable performing such an unnatural behavior but does it any way because she knows she will be hurt if she doesn't do it.
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But still, is this control? Does this trainer have control over these dogs, or is this and example learned helplessness, or a dog shutting down (due to abusive aversive methods)?
I don't think this is control. I think it's manipulation. I think you hit it spot on with the ["there's my dad, I love him" *yank*] I think that all these dogs look like they desperately want to do what their owners want them to do, are being punished and still looking for the way to please the owners. They seem like helpless fuzzy children looking for affirmation and pride from their parents but just can't seem to get it right. So I would say - shutting down - because they don't know which way to move, if they start to move, is this right? I don't know *yank* crap... that wasn't right should I try again?... *yank* crap... nope
I don't know. but I wouldn't do this. Strangest thing I've ever seen. I'm thinking there are too many dogs piled together looking worried. I don't see abusive here but what does it look like before they are all lined up. Have you seen what comes before this?
Looks like screwed up training to me. Stressed dogs showing avoidance behaviors. Lots of lip licking and trying to cope when forced into way too close proximity. What is the point of some of that crap he is doing??
Must be something with my computer--I can't get it to play even from the link. Just get a blank screen. Oh well, sounds like I don't need to see it anyway. From your descriptions, it sounds like learned helplessness....don't volunteer anything because you might get it wrong.
I suppose that is a type of control--control through fear. Some people like that--meaning they like that absolute control they get over another peson or animal. I guess I don't need to say much about what I think of those kind of people, though.
I see all kinds of people at the shelter, and all kinds of dogs. Dogs will be dogs, no matter their stress level, confidence level or social skill set. People that can't handle a dog being a dog do one of three things: nothing or get nervous and hand off the dog, gain control through trust and positive based training, or jump to dictate their every movement.
To control a dog is to control a situation - to be able to predict and produce a safe outcome from an interaction or situation a dog once failed in some way. Ideally, you'd want the dog to be able to react in a safe way should the human not be present, or at least thats my goal in a multi-dog home where one dogs is dog reactive. To produce a consistent safe outcome, you have to create some sort of positive association and establish trust.
I've come to understand control to mean the ability to create a trust bond (and with an aggressive/reactive dog - ultimately peacefulness of mind and movement) while allowing your dog to be a dog. Control is sort of an understanding we have with something, it's a level of a relationship that should be built on trust. Not absolute authoritativeness. True control should be earned and freely given by the controlled, not forced.
A dog, at its core, is an animal. These dogs - the breeds highlighted - are extremely people oriented and aim to please. So for them to look so uneasy, rigid almost - even though they are doing what they are essentially being forced to do for a person - its just not natural. It's not true control in my humble little opinion. It's more like an unnatural dictatorship of movement. I dogsit for someone who trained their pit bull this way - they say they have absolute control over her. They leave her choke chain and e-collar for me, but I never take them out of the bag. When she's with me, it takes her five days to loosen the hell up and just BE a dog... to roll in grass, to run around like a nut, to gather courage to bark or sniff another dog. To cuddle, and not be afraid to bring me a toy. It breaks my heart how broken she is, her spirit is just gone. How can a dog frozen with fear learn anything? Gain confidence? What is the point of this type of 'training' or 'control'?
Ultimately you'd want a dog aggressive dog to accept other dogs near it safely, right? So these dogs in the video only know right now that they are being forced near these other dogs or there is a punishment. So they shut down their reaction, and just do it. What if the human variable was not present? Would these dogs fight? What then was accomplished?
Whereas I have control over Kiba, quite dog reactive and borderline aggressive. He has bitten (punctured, blood) both dogs and people. I've worked for one year and three months to earn his absolute trust in me. It took three months to get him around our dogs, and almost 8 months to fully integrate him with our four dogs. It took one year for him to accept Hachi the shiba that we often hike with/dogsit. But I can control him because he allows me to make decisions for him. I ask him to stop and look at me, and he will 100% of the time because I've earned it. He has easy, fluid movement when I have control over him, and he can act naturally and through those natural interactions I can help him gain confidence and social skills he's lacked in his first 7 years of life. He chooses to trust that I won't set him up to fail, that we take it slow, and that the dogs I have around him mean him no harm. His actions are consistent, even when I'm not there (I know because I come home to unrestrained dogs living together peacefully with no injuries). That, to me, is true control over a dog.
I've seen results in a five dog household using the earned control It's a pretty peaceful existence we have here.
I finally was able to see the video, and I've tog to say, that's some serious b.s. and I would not call it training. I can't see any justification for it, except to demonstrate that you can take away all of a dog's free will. The dogs looked nervous and shut down--there was a lot of panting and lip licking, and some looked like they were super uncomfortable and were avoiding looking around, but were afraid to even move.
Why would someone even do that to dogs? Says more about the so-called trainer than the dogs.
Comments
I'm not really clear what the point of making the one dog rest on the other one is aside from showing off, either. That seemed like an unnecessary test to me, but I don't know what they're really hoping to achieve.
I can't really hear the video well, even with my volume turned all the way up, but I didn't like the trainer's body language or all the leash-jerk corrections. At the end, even the owner(?) of the liver pit seems a little confused as to why he's correcting the dog and the trainer doesn't seem to take a lot of time explaining it to him. It sounds more like a "because I said so"... but again, I can't hear all the video clearly.
@shibamistress - here
(In other news, I really like the liver pit! So cute!)
Also, I didn't agree with the need for making the liver dog lay on the blue one other than what was mentioned above... because the owner can make them do it.... a very unnatural, unnecessary "trick". At the same time the GSD (maybe short haired Belgian Tervuren) looking dog got yanked on AFTER it laid down, why?????
The dogs seemed unsure, paying attention to the owners waiting for the next harsh correction rather than an eager attitude of, "what are we doing now/next". There was no fun in it for the dogs. More of an attitude of, " I better get this perfect or I'm going to get yanked on"
The only reward was an occasional pat and a good dog. None of the dogs seemed happy to be there. The only tail wags I saw looked like anxious wagging not happy wags and was on the blue Pitt as the liver was on top of it, and on the GSD/Tervuren (which looked like it was really wanting to please) looking dog and on the liver dog on the bench.
Oh, and on the bench the one dog got yanked on for raising it's head???? Cuz it was looking expectantly at the person in front of it (it's owner)???
Those dogs don't look happy, but they do look like they are trying their hardest to please with little reward.
(paraphrasing here) (trainer) Correct your dog if you need to. ... (trainer) If she looks like she's gonna make a mistake, go ahead and correct her. ... (trainer) There, correct her (cameraman reaches in and corrects liver pittie) ... (trainer) You just corrected her because she thought about moving. You didn't see it, but I did.
I agree with all of you. The dogs look very uncomfortable and stressed. There is very clear body language from the dogs that says the do not like what they are being asked to do. Just looks like avoidance to me.
This video was posted on Bandog Banter in a thread about "control". The video was posted as an example of proven "higher level" control.
The video seemed stupid to me, and I HATE the stress on the dogs and the training techniques... However, maybe it shows control? I dunno tho. I'm having a hard time seeing anything but "shut down", "avoidance", and "stressed" in those dogs. I don't see "control". Ya know?
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"if she looks like she's going to make a mistake" and "thought about moving" ...I really--I'm sure there's an emote I can use right now for how I'm feeling. Ah, yes, of course there is.
щ(ಠ益ಠщ)
@Crispy - Right? Apparently this guy can read dog's minds. Just kinda makes me super mad. That's all I can say. lol
@carlikai - Watch it again... The dog on the bottom may not move his torso or head, but his eyes flicker from side to side, his whiskers flare up, and his tail nervously wags. To me it looks like he is afraid to move his body. And the other dog looks very uncomfortable performing such an unnatural behavior but does it any way because she knows she will be hurt if she doesn't do it.
----
But still, is this control? Does this trainer have control over these dogs, or is this and example learned helplessness, or a dog shutting down (due to abusive aversive methods)?
----
Snf
I suppose that is a type of control--control through fear. Some people like that--meaning they like that absolute control they get over another peson or animal. I guess I don't need to say much about what I think of those kind of people, though.
To control a dog is to control a situation - to be able to predict and produce a safe outcome from an interaction or situation a dog once failed in some way. Ideally, you'd want the dog to be able to react in a safe way should the human not be present, or at least thats my goal in a multi-dog home where one dogs is dog reactive. To produce a consistent safe outcome, you have to create some sort of positive association and establish trust.
I've come to understand control to mean the ability to create a trust bond (and with an aggressive/reactive dog - ultimately peacefulness of mind and movement) while allowing your dog to be a dog. Control is sort of an understanding we have with something, it's a level of a relationship that should be built on trust. Not absolute authoritativeness. True control should be earned and freely given by the controlled, not forced.
A dog, at its core, is an animal. These dogs - the breeds highlighted - are extremely people oriented and aim to please. So for them to look so uneasy, rigid almost - even though they are doing what they are essentially being forced to do for a person - its just not natural. It's not true control in my humble little opinion. It's more like an unnatural dictatorship of movement. I dogsit for someone who trained their pit bull this way - they say they have absolute control over her. They leave her choke chain and e-collar for me, but I never take them out of the bag. When she's with me, it takes her five days to loosen the hell up and just BE a dog... to roll in grass, to run around like a nut, to gather courage to bark or sniff another dog. To cuddle, and not be afraid to bring me a toy. It breaks my heart how broken she is, her spirit is just gone. How can a dog frozen with fear learn anything? Gain confidence? What is the point of this type of 'training' or 'control'?
Ultimately you'd want a dog aggressive dog to accept other dogs near it safely, right?
So these dogs in the video only know right now that they are being forced near these other dogs or there is a punishment. So they shut down their reaction, and just do it. What if the human variable was not present? Would these dogs fight? What then was accomplished?
Whereas I have control over Kiba, quite dog reactive and borderline aggressive. He has bitten (punctured, blood) both dogs and people. I've worked for one year and three months to earn his absolute trust in me. It took three months to get him around our dogs, and almost 8 months to fully integrate him with our four dogs. It took one year for him to accept Hachi the shiba that we often hike with/dogsit. But I can control him because he allows me to make decisions for him. I ask him to stop and look at me, and he will 100% of the time because I've earned it. He has easy, fluid movement when I have control over him, and he can act naturally and through those natural interactions I can help him gain confidence and social skills he's lacked in his first 7 years of life. He chooses to trust that I won't set him up to fail, that we take it slow, and that the dogs I have around him mean him no harm. His actions are consistent, even when I'm not there (I know because I come home to unrestrained dogs living together peacefully with no injuries). That, to me, is true control over a dog.
I've seen results in a five dog household using the earned control
I finally was able to see the video, and I've tog to say, that's some serious b.s. and I would not call it training. I can't see any justification for it, except to demonstrate that you can take away all of a dog's free will. The dogs looked nervous and shut down--there was a lot of panting and lip licking, and some looked like they were super uncomfortable and were avoiding looking around, but were afraid to even move.
Why would someone even do that to dogs? Says more about the so-called trainer than the dogs.