Yamabushi no Shakko (aka "Risu")
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12093
    Shakko is the first true akatora we've produced. He's from the Nio x Haru litter. I think he deserves his own thread too...

    (ordered by age)

    Shakko - 8 Weeks Old

    Shakko

    Shakko

    Shakko - 10 Weeks old

    Shakko

    Shakko Walking

    Shakko

    Shakko

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  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    Posts: 2346
    Stunning.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita, Claire Matthews
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  • aykayk
    Posts: 1817
    He reminds me of Nio in the second to last pic. :-)
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5493
    OMG! He's gotten sooooo handsome!!! ~
    - Osy ~
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  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1183
    I'm a big fan of the Akatora Kai - they're very striking. I really like his face, too, in the last and second to last pictures.
    image
  • sjp051993sjp051993
    Posts: 1527
    He is maturing nicely. You don't notice the ear as much now.
    Stacey living with Tora, Kazue, Ritsu and Kuma the Shiba
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  • YandharrYandharr
    Posts: 200
    beautiful. maybe it's the pictures but he looks HUGE.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12093
    Thanks all! :o)

    @ayk - He reminds me a lot of Nio too. He has Nio's build and head.

    @Yandharr - That's the funny thing, he is tiny... Like very small. It's a bit troubling - hopefully he's just a late grower.

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    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2012-04-08 21:19:16
  • YandharrYandharr
    Posts: 200
    @brada1878 - hmm I guess it was just a small batch huh? lol I'm curious, how much does he weigh? Sister just hit 16 lbs. and about 15"
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12093
    @Yandharr - I'll have to weigh him and measure him. Mishi, their brother (litter mate), is a more normal size... So, I dunno, I guess we just got the runts. ;o) ... Nio is not a big Kai, keep that in mind. He's our smallest male.
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    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2012-04-08 21:33:08
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12093
    Well, Shakko might be our smallest male now...
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  • brittkbrittk
    Posts: 301
    he's very handsome! Definitely looks a lot like Nio
    Loving my Kai-ya :)
  • He is gorgeous!
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2261
    I really like his coat and build.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • ttddinhttddinh
    Posts: 1981
    His coat is amazing!
  • ceziegcezieg
    Posts: 937
    What a handsome little guy, his coat coloration is stunning! He does look pretty huge in his photos haha, it must be a NK thing because everyone who runs into Tsune and has never seen a Shiba in person think they're twice the size from the photos they've seen.
    If that last photo was a poster I would definitely put it on my wall, great shot :)
    Ren, Kai Ken (f)
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12093
    Thanks!
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  • ladynaokiladynaoki
    Posts: 58
    Shakko is so gorgeous.
    Signature
  • BradnJessBradnJess
    Posts: 168
    He is absolutely GORGEOUS. (Doesn't hurt that you take amazing pictures, either...)
    Brad, Jess, and Argos, our shikoku!
    Argos: 19 months old already! He has grown so much!
  • WhoBitMeWhoBitMe
    Posts: 1215
    Okay, not gonna lie. He is super cute. And I love his coloring.
    1 Human + 1 Border Collie = Partners in Crime
    With bonus Hokkaido....Meitou (co-pilot in training)!
  • musashimusashi
    Posts: 205
    Shakko FTW!
  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 2704
    are his eyes really that light? I can almost never see Juno's pupils.

    After seeing pics of Okabe-san's dog, Mao(?), I thought I knew at last what akatora looks like- I mean that dog's black IS brown- his nose is not black. and I see clearly that Juno (for example) is NOT akatora, but a chutora with a nice red-gold coat and black stripes. Can you discuss the finer distinction of 'true akatora' for us? Shakko is beautiful, and light in color, but he doesnt look like Mao, so now I am not sure I understand akatora anymore...
    photo forumthing_zps355635f7.jpg
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12093
    His eyes are light colored, not as light as Nio's tho.

    Akatora has nothing to do with skin pigmentation. Mao has a liverish colored pigment. Akatora is specific to the color of the brindle only, and should have little-to-no black in it.

    Juno is probably more akatora now than chutora, but she is registered chutora. Shakko is registered akatora.

    There is no clear distinction between a very red chutora and an akatora, it is up to the individual judge/breeder to choose the definition of "akatora". I tend to save "akatora" for only examples who show the extreme, like Musashi, Shakko, Mao... But, one could argue that Haru, Juno, and maybe Ayu are akatora too.

    To me, it's when the pups are first born that tells their true color. Take for example Juno vs Shakko...

    Juno
    Haru_Winter-2011-Litter_Day3_Puppy1-Female_a

    Shakko
    Haru-WinterLitter2012-Pup1-Male-Day5a

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  • aykayk
    Posts: 1817
    I think there was something on facebook that mentioned the nose pigment on akatoras and so that's blurring the definition for us.
  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 2704
    Shakko is much redder at birth! In fact, the whole photo is redder. Its amazing (again) to see how much a dark pup can color up over time (Juno).

    Is the skin pigment unrelated to the black hair pigment, genetically? (I'm thinking of how you never see a chocolate lab with a black nose, nor a black lab with a liver nose. or in springers or pointers, liver spots: liver nose, eye rims + black spots: black nose eye rims.) In the end, is it all just a matter of degree? a spectrum, rather than an on/off thing. Must there be a liver gene in Mao, or other akatoras- or is any black a degree of overall red?
    photo forumthing_zps355635f7.jpg
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12093
    That sounds like a question for Ann @ayk :o)
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  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3183
    It's interesting. I really like his color. The now abandoned Shiba health database was looking at skin pigment and color due to fading issues in the breed. Is liver pigment not desirable?
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  • aykayk
    Posts: 1817
    In chocolate labs, the gene that changes a black coat to brown will also change black skin pigment to brown. It'll also change the eye color. In a pup, the eye color looks blue/grey but as an adult the eye color looks yellow.

    The color term is called chocolate- or liver-dilute in some breeds and denoted by "b." On the DNA level, there's actually several different "b" genes that cause this color.

    I don't know if akatoras are caused by one of the obscure "b" genes or just "an unknown reddening factor". A buccal sample to a coat color DNA lab might be revealing. I think Shigeru still has access to Mao. If not Mao, then his son Kibou can probably be tested in the US. If Mao is really "bb", then Kibou has to be carrying one copy of his "b" gene.


    Post edited by ayk at 2012-04-12 23:08:28
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1476
    I can go see Mao and get a sample if anyone is serious about doing a test.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12093
    Wouldn't we need a akatora sample from a dog w/o liver colored nose too for comparison?
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  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    Posts: 2346
    The dog at the top of this thread does not have a liver nose. I'm sure if people are interested they can do the genetic tests, but I think its barking up the wrong tree. I think the only difference between the "types" of brindle is a gene or set of genes that control the ratio of eumelanin to pheomelanin (causing more or less black stripes on the red field, potentially even "drowning out" the red field entirely).

    I have seen, in brindle Akitas, offspring which have significantly different red/black pigment ratios from their parents. As an example, @jellyfart's boy Toki and his littermates have a traditional amount of red/black for an akatora Akita. His father, however, has a very unusually high amount of red with large spans (some areas wider than my hand) without any black stripes. This is just one example of many that leads me to believe that this "stripe dispersion" is a polygenic trait, which thus causes it appear "random" because so many different components come from both parents and mix together differently.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita, Claire Matthews
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  • aykayk
    Posts: 1817
    @poeticdragon

    Unlike the JA, the stripes on an akatora Kai are dark brown against red. Even in the most lightly marked brindled JA, the stripes have always been black to my eye.

    I'll try to locate pics of the dogs in question. :-)

    Here are some:

    image

    image
    Post edited by ayk at 2012-04-13 00:06:50
  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    Posts: 2346
    Okay, so we're discussing the hue of the eumelanin, not the amount of it? If it is truly a different hue, it should be visible on the kurotora as well as the akatora. Maybe its a trick of the eye with the black and red hairs, and the coat length (Akitas being longer) plays a role?
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita, Claire Matthews
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    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2012-04-13 01:01:11
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1817

    The famous Mao:
    image
    image
    image

  • aykayk
    Posts: 1817
    @poeticdragon

    Since I've never seen a Kai akatora in person, I couldn't say if it's a trick of the sunlight. Honestly, I don't think that I could figure it out even in person.

    What I can say is that these dogs don't have the typical yellow eyes of a "bb." So I don't think it's "b" for even the brown-nosed, brown striped Kai akatoras. To test a black-nosed Kai akatora seems kinda out there to me.



    Post edited by ayk at 2012-04-13 00:23:31
  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    Posts: 2346
    Well, I see what you mean. Of course its harder to tell from photos, because the pixels themselves are "averages" of areas of hue (especially if its been resized). Do you have any high res photos of close ups of the coat, showing many distinct hairs?

    Interestingly enough, a quick google for liver brindle images didn't reveal very much. Now I am curious. BRB investigating.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita, Claire Matthews
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  • aykayk
    Posts: 1817
    Check out these pics from the KKA Tenrankia 2010 show. The dogs are mostly in the same light.

    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/6000/kka-tenrankai-2010-fall/p1
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12093
    This image shows Mao's nose better...
    http://www.yamabushikennel.org/apps/pedigree/uploads/1324078976.jpg
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  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12093
    PS: Shakko will be at the expo for review.
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  • ttddinhttddinh
    Posts: 1981
    ooohhhh! I like him alot! i get to see him in vivo!!! :)
  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    Posts: 2346
    Interesting. His gums and nose sure look liver. But his stripes look more black in that photo! Damn brindles for being different every time you take their picture.

    Nonetheless, the eumelanin hue modification (whether it is liver "b" or something else) would affect the other types of brindle as well as the akatora in the same way. This picture seems to support that, as these dogs both look like liver to me: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30674599@N04/5156411803/

    For what its worth, I was/am defining kurotora and akatora by the genotype not the phenotype; the ratio of eumelanin and pheomelanin pigment. A dog that is almost entirely eumelanin would be kurotora, while a dog with roughly equal or greater amounts of pheomelanin would be akatora and chutora is in between the two. However, if the kurotora or chutora was genetically liver, its phenotype would be overall a brown color that would probably make it branded as an akatora. I wouldn't consider this dilution gene to be a requirement to be a "true" akatora, however.

    As a side note: liver does not (or should not) exist in the Akita gene pool for either breed. So that would explain why you haven't seen any with stripes like these kai, @ayk.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita, Claire Matthews
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    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2012-04-13 01:40:15
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1817
    I'll have my friends Nichole and Linda look at Shakko vs. HoSu. The two are a lot more versed in coat colors than I because they work with fancy rats/hamsters/mice.

    Hate to break this to you, but there's one more brindle in the Kai. Kurotora. A dog that is almost entirely eumelanin would be a kurotora. Halfway seems to be both chutora and akatora but with different (subjective) levels of hues. In the pic that you posted, the dog on the right would be considered a poor akatora because the stripes are almost completely lost.

    Post edited by ayk at 2012-04-13 00:58:18
  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    Posts: 2346
    Ah you're right, I had forgotten about that one. I fixed my previous posts.

    And yes, that left one might be labeled akatora, but it looks to me like a liver kurotora. As you said, it lacks very many stripes; most of its body is dilute eumelanin.

    I am attempting (perhaps failing) to have some consistent and less subjective labeling at least for the purpose of this discussion. I know its not necessarily the proper colors/labels the dogs would be given by the breed clubs.

    • mostly eumelanin pigment: kurotora
    • half or more pheomelanin pigment: akatora
    • "somewhere in between" pigment ratio: chutora
    • black to brown dilution: liver (likely labeled akatora regardless of pigment ratio)
    • red to cream dilution: chinchilla (likely labeled shirotora regardless of pigment ratio)
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    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2012-04-13 01:27:39
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1817
    There's no shirotora in the Kai. There's no urajiro desired in the Kai. Dark red in between the stripes has been selected for.

    There is "e" in the breed though, with varying shades from white to dark cream.


    Post edited by ayk at 2012-04-13 01:38:38
  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 2704
    I need to back up- cause i'm a neophyte :)
    so stripe density is factored differently than stripe pigment, right?
    So you could have a dog with little red (like a Kurotora) but where the 'black' is brown, and we'd call him akatora? We can also see the really light dogs with few stripes (fewer, but black = chutora, fewer but brown= akatora), because Eishin looks actually a rather dark dog (in density) but browner (in pigment)
    am I getting it?
    photo forumthing_zps355635f7.jpg
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1817
    @Wryly Brindle

    "so stripe density is factored differently than stripe pigment, right?" - Yes.

    Using the Japanese terms is a bit tricky because we don't know how to define the non-typical coat appearances. And even then, borderline dogs jump from one color ot the other. I remember Haru was called an akatora and then a chutora and now an akatora.

    That's why @poeticdragon is trying to use genetic terms to at least understand the inheritance.


    Post edited by ayk at 2012-04-13 10:15:44
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1817
    I shared the headshot pic of Mao on the canine genetics list and the coat color guru there thinks he's actually d/d. (!?!) If she wasn't the guru, I would think she was crazy. :-p She can't determine if Mao is also b/b based on the pics though.

    I asked about tests and she said most if not all labs are able to determine d, and even though there are several b types, the labs will catch 3 of them and call it b.

    While searching for testing labs, I noticed a note that in French bulldogs there is a 4th "b type" that provides brown coat color but black noses. There's no test for this yet.

    I would honestly hold off on testing until that 4th "b type" is identified. (I'm cheap with my money. :-) That looks like a good candidate for what might be causing some akatoras.
    Post edited by ayk at 2012-04-13 11:42:07
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12093
    Chrys - I think those examples you asked about would not be considered "correct" KKA Kai Ken coats. For example, it calls for a well defined brindle pattern... and in your brown kurotora example that wouldn't be the case. The other example you gave are diluted colors and wouldn't be considered "correct" either.

    This is all very interesting. Thanks for the info guys! :o)

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  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    Posts: 2346
    @ayk After a while of looking I was able to find some "liver brindle" photos on google. Not many good enough to share, unfortunately. They did look significantly different (although much shorter hair) from these Kai. There was no mistaking that it was chocolate and fawn stripes. Also since they were all bully breeds with butterfly noses, it was difficult to judge nose pigment at all - when it was included in the photo.

    It is interesting that french bulldogs have this 4th type of b, since it was only bully breeds I was able to find photos of.

    Here's the best photo of the bunch. (Also happens to be the first result, heh)
    image

    I think this dog has some dilution d as well as liver b, since the red is very honey colored and the brown is very light.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita, Claire Matthews
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    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2012-04-13 12:59:21
  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 2704
    what's a butterfly nose?

    and

    Does Kurotora (say, Kona- wait, bad example- you said KKA. ) have "well defined brindle pattern?" Maybe I am (erroneously) thinking of Kuros as like many of the UKC kai which are almost entirely black. Bo is a kurotora I've seen close up IRL- he is basically a black dog with some red hairs, but it didnt really make stripes per se. But again, he's UKC and I dont know what their standard says about stripe definition. Are the KKA Kuros much less black and more stripey than UKC kuros? I think all your (Brad's) darker KKA dogs have clear stripes...but what a great excuse to go look at Brad's Kai photos one more time! :)
    photo forumthing_zps355635f7.jpg
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3183
    Chrys, I like this kuro a lot:

    http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/30674599@N04/5157031632/

    It is Boss, Nio's half brother. He has really visible red stripes.
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  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    Posts: 2346
    A butterfly nose is when there is "splotchy" pigment. Its common on dogs with certain types of white flashing/genes. It should not be confused with a snow nose, which has areas of light and dark pigment but it is not spotty. Snow noses also lighten and darken with the season (and possibly, vitamin intake). Snow noses are what the AKC Akita standard incorrectly calls liver.

    Here is a butterfly nose (it also happens to be liver):
    image

    Here is a snow nose:
    image

    Here is a liver nose:
    image

    It is possible for a dog to have any combination of all three. For example, my American Akita has a butterfly nose and a snow nose. Her nose has bright pink (no pigment) under the nostrils and dark black spots around the edges; these never change color. But the main part of her nose leather is made up of mottled purple and greyish pink splotches, which become more similar or more contrasted as the seasons change.
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    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2012-04-13 14:48:57
  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 2704
    Ah! My sister's yellow lab has a 'snow nose' then. What is a Dudley nose?
    photo forumthing_zps355635f7.jpg
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12093
    Chrys - Yes, all KKA Kai colors *should* have well defined stripes - tho, not all of them do... just like not all of them have proper tails or proper coat length.
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  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    Posts: 2346
    A dudley nose completely lacks pigment. Here's an example.
    image
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita, Claire Matthews
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    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2012-04-13 15:24:39
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1817
    My guess is that the dudley lab is actually e/e + b/b though. The nose is pink in the center with chocolate rims?


    Post edited by ayk at 2012-04-13 15:35:28
  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 2704
    Thanks! I've learned a lot!
    :)
    photo forumthing_zps355635f7.jpg
  • @brada1878 is Shakko still living with you? I didn't see him on your website when I was browsing.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12093
    @AndrewT1993 - Nope, he was placed, and then lost, in NorCal, unfortunately. :-S
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  • @brada1878 :( thats really unfortunate such a beautiful dog
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12093
    @AndrewT1993 - agreed. :(
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