In what way do you not understand? I feel that a gentle owner is one that does not raise their voice and yell at a dog, but will say commands in a matter of fact, confident way. In no way is force used.
Yep, firm does not always have to mean being rough or violent. It's having rules and sticking to them. For example, if you don't want the dogs in the kitchen (especially while cooking), consistently removing them from the kitchen will teach them that they aren't allowed in. By never breaking that rule, you are remaining firm on your expectations and rules.
Being gentle is simply that, to be kind and non-violent when working with your dog. Instead of yelling or smacking them for stepping into the kitchen, you can just use your body to "push" the dog out simply by taking up space near the dog and "herding" them to where they are allowed to be.
I do understand it perfectly but I must admit that in 8yrs of owning a dg I have made mistakes while trying to figure out the firm an gentle . I just wanted to know how others do to be firm and gentle,in actuality with their dogs.
My biggest challenge ,often, are people rather then dogs. What to do when another person in the family, my inlaws that we visit often and love and respect , does not follow the rules that I have set up? My dog loves them and they love him but as far as sticking to basic rules ,out of the window goes my hard work
oh I think we all make mistakes and it is so hard to remember not to loose your patience or over react about something... one thing I noticed is some people are loud when teaching their dog a command, like they think the dog will listen better. So annoying, I usually use a tone and volume that matches the intensity of what is happening. No need to yell, the command sit at a dog standing next to you, his hearing is way better than ours. Once you train them with yelling then you always need to yell, makes no sense to me.
[My biggest challenge ,often, are people rather then dogs. What to do when another person in the family, my inlaws that we visit often and love and respect , does not follow the rules that I have set up? My dog loves them and they love him but as far as sticking to basic rules ,out of the window goes my hard work]
this is a tough one..... around here I have made it clear these are the rules concerning the dogs and if you dont follow them you dont come around, but thats just the way we do it
You can try putting a leash on the dog when they come over and keep the dog right with you and tell them he is in training and not let the dog have a chance to be lead astray.Only allow them to come over and pet him when he is doing what you want him to do. With the dog right by your side their is more chance that company will try to understand exactly what you are doing and will follow the basic rules.
In giving a gentle "no", i think it has a lot to do with body posture as well. Broad shoulders, standing, confidence voice, like you mean it. That is the only way Toki really responds to "no".
If you were to not be so gentle with an NK, say doing traditional adversive methods of hitting, spanking or forcefully shoving your dog off of you, ect...would you eventually get bit?
I feel like negative reinforcement, while should never be used, is tolerated better by breeds like golden retrievers, and an NK breed just isn't going to stand for that and will resort to biting. (though, I have very little experience with any other breed, so please correct me if I am wrong!) IMO, an Akita needs to have a gentle but firm leader, not an adversive one.
I actually disagree on the yelling part. I think it is sometimes necessary to reprimand a dog, and doing so by yelling is the gentle way to do it. Here's an example. Yesterday I walked into my bedroom to find Diesel in the processes of destroying a dog bed. Was it my fault he got in there unsupervised? Absolutely. Did he make a bad decision by destroying the bed? You bet. I yelled. Diesel is a happy-go-lucky dog with an energy level that makes a Shiba puppy look like a geriatric St. Bernard. He likes to behave and he likes to listen to commands, but sometimes his energy and happy nature make it so he doesn't hear. At that point, yelling gets his attention quickly and gently, so I can give him commands in a more conversational tone.
I also think there are ways to be physical with a dog and gentle at the same time. Body posture is one way. But there have been times where I've had to restrain a dog without a colar on it. Grabbing a dog by the scruff can be done gently and it can be done harshly. When I've had to "scruff a dog" I've treated it like I was holding a live bird, enough pressure to make sure it doesn't get away, but not so much as to cause pain or harm. And I definitely would never shake or manipulate a dog by the scruff. The dog knows I've got a hold of it, but doesn't react to being touched. That's a gentle way to physically restrain a dog.
@jellyfart I think you misunderstood the meaning of negative reinforcement. "Negative" in the learning theory just means removing something from the environment and does not necessarily mean it is bad. Just like "positive" is not all good. "Positive" just means adding something to the environment.
Most are familiar with the term "positive reinforcement", which is adding something to increase the chance of certain behavior happening in the future. "Negative Reinforcement" means removing something to increase the chance of certain behavior in the future, so an example of negative reinforcement could be stop all interaction/attention by turning you back to a jumping dog (assuming the dog jumps to get attention), you are removing the attention to the dog to increase the chance of the dog staying all 4 feet on the ground.
@alban With relatives, if they don't listen to what I tell them, they don't get to interact with the dog at all. If they still ignore me? I explode in their face. Probably not the best way to go about it but I've had it with people ignoring my rules and undoing MONTHS of training in one day. Same with strangers. Don't listen? Bug off, and that's putting it nicely.
I agree with Dave about yelling. When Juneau is in a full-on chase, the only way to get her attention is to yell, very loudly. If I don't do that she will continue to chase whatever animal she's after and potentially get lost or hit by a car. But yelling at her because she did not sit, or did not come fast enough, is stupid.
Interesting questions that I feel is subjective and skewed often to meet individuals own interpretation in training.
I concur with others "I think firm = consistan and unfaltering... while gentle = kind and with out aversives (think "LIMA" - least invasive, minimally aversive)."
It is tough though, there is a learning curve and none of us is perfect, learning as we go. Frustration can be a big factor in how we address the unexpected infractions.
Sorry to say, but the "yellers" in my classes have been male or hard of hearing older people. I find that male trainees/students in a class have a tendency to push the voice button a bit more as well as tapping into the physical ruff up switch when really there is no need for it. Even if a dog is ripping up a dog bed there isn't a need to yell. A more assertive tone such as "Hey - enough" gets the point across with a low "enough" tone and a swift gesture to a crate ends a mid-chew on pillow as effectively if not more so in my opinion. I guess it depends on the dog, honestly if the dog is that "hard of hearing" or selectively listening then I would be revising or revisiting the consistency of the training. Some dogs are more malleable than others and have a higher sound threshold so maybe no harm done, but over time yelling can be stressful for some. I know for a great many Shibas and spitzy crosses etc the yelling or discord among humans gets you two steps back in the training dept. particularly indoors.
Oh, I am certainly not perfect. I've been known to yell at our dogs when I get frustrated. Also, we've been known to not be consistent too... Anyone who ever meet Ahi learns that pretty quickly, she is super rude. LOL
I think you have to strive to stay consistent, and try to keep your cool. I think that if you can do it the same most of the time, and stay cool most of the time, you are doing well. We aren't robots, we cannot do things the exact same every time, there has to be a margin of error...
That IMHO is where it comes back to positive renforcement: if you mess up when training a dog using positive renforcement the end result is less of a concern (and less damaging) than messing up using positive punishment.
But, yea, when Blue watches me walk out the door, and then barks at me through the window as if he didn't know I was there - I yell "knock it off Blue!"...
@brada1878 Ahi is my favorite dog at your home!! I loved her. She's so in your face fun. If I had to match my personality to any dog it would be Ahi! Which says a lot about me. ha ha ha.
No one is perfect. I rarely yell at a dog, but I have been known to if they are doing something that is unsafe. Like Mei used to bolt over the fence and run for the street. Since I don't yell much, when I do it would stop her dead in her tracks. I don't think I've ever yelled at Koda. I've raised my voice so he can hear me, but that's about it.
Yep, I'm also with the "least invasive, minimally aversive" school. I'm not nearly as consistent as I should be, so I feel that a lot of the "bad behavior" (more annoying behavior than bad) of my dogs is my fault, not theirs, as I've not been consistent enough in their training. So I'm certainly not willing to "punish" them for what I haven't worked on enough. And when I do use "punishment" it tends to be negative reinforcement (something gets taken away).
There's not much yelling at the dogs in our house (though my husband is German and a bit hard of hearing and talks really really loud sometimes!), so when there is, it gets there attention! It's usually used to interrupt a behavior right now, and even then it's more raised voice than yelling, so like yesterday, when I saw Toby counter surfing and I called out "na na na" no reward marker, from the other room (of course, he first turns and looks at me--is she really watching?--before casually getting his paws off the counter).
Real yelling has only been in emergencies, when I worry about a dog getting hurt, and it happens so rarely, that it really gets their attention. It can be useful, which is why people shouldn't use it all the time or the dog gets accustomed to it.
eta: Dave, just saw your cool video! I don't consider the verbal correction yelling. I consider it a slightly raised voice, which is different to me. (as in my Toby counter surfing example). It was really cool to see Diesel too! he's coming along really well!
@dlroberts - I would not consider that yelling. Just a correction, to which Diesel responded well and didn't seem to be upset by it. He is doing really well!
@dlroberts Nope not yelling at all. You are giving commands from quite a ways away for a 4 month old to be following you so well. I would expect you to have to raise your voice.
I yelled at Mei! It was loud and scared her enough to stop her from potentially running into a busy street. She's tough. She can handle it.
@dlroberts, I agree with everyone, not yelling. I yelled at Bea for chasing after our neighbors Maltese, she didn't listen, but she rarely does when she doesn't want to.
So, in my mind that is yelling. Probably because that's as loud as my voice ever gets. lol. If nobody else seems to think that's yelling, then I'll revise my opinion to say it's not necessary. :-)
Dave I have to laugh about the term "yelling", I think it was you that mentioned "yelling" in regard to destruction of dog bed (LOL). In my mind yelling is literally yelling (drill sergeant ), so I took you at your word. Human reactivity/panic/startle often puts peoples voice up an octave, usually in women and lower guttural in men. Depends on culture and individual. A dog picks up on those tones and depending on the situation all hell can break loose in dog - people partnership at that moment.
Interesting that the term "yelling" has different interpretations depending on who is asked though. In class there was a husband wife team, and he was discussing with the wife and pointing out an technique she missed. The wife thought he was "yelling" rather than helpful criticism that was actually in a low tone LOL.
Thanks for the clip. In that particular training context seen in the video for retriever training your tone seems normal to me for an outside environment and it appears Diesel thinks its normal. Your partnership with Diesel is super actually. He is doing an awesome job and you should definitely be proud. Honestly you appear far more relaxed than you use to be based on previous issues with Joey.
Question....do you by chance have video with Tyson attempting the same tasks with the whistle and contact points? I am curious to see the difference in the two boys of different breeds. It would be so helpful if you have that footage to share.
Oh by the way my boy was going bonkers hearing that whistle. Had to turn off the sound *Grin*.... Gotta love a dog with drive. I took him out of field work in summer after being stung by bees. : ( Now that it's winter it's better but the leaf mold has allergies kicked up after two hrs in the woods. Just sucks.
Thanks for the compliment Patrice! I wish I could take credit, but Diesel is just so easy to train. :-) Unfortunately I don't have a video of Tyson on the platforms. I've been meaning to try with him again, but he loses interest so quickly that I haven't spent much time with him on it. I definitely should though.
Take an antihistimine and get back out in the woods with your boy! :-)
Comments
I think firm = consistan and unfaltering... while gentle = kind and with out aversives (think "LIMA" - least invasive, minimally aversive).
Being gentle is simply that, to be kind and non-violent when working with your dog. Instead of yelling or smacking them for stepping into the kitchen, you can just use your body to "push" the dog out simply by taking up space near the dog and "herding" them to where they are allowed to be.
My biggest challenge ,often, are people rather then dogs. What to do when another person in the family, my inlaws that we visit often and love and respect , does not follow the rules that I have set up? My dog loves them and they love him but as far as sticking to basic rules ,out of the window goes my hard work
[My biggest challenge ,often, are people rather then dogs. What to do when another person in the family, my inlaws that we visit often and love and respect , does not follow the rules that I have set up? My dog loves them and they love him but as far as sticking to basic rules ,out of the window goes my hard work]
this is a tough one..... around here I have made it clear these are the rules concerning the dogs and if you dont follow them you dont come around, but thats just the way we do it
You can try putting a leash on the dog when they come over and keep the dog right with you and tell them he is in training and not let the dog have a chance to be lead astray.Only allow them to come over and pet him when he is doing what you want him to do. With the dog right by your side their is more chance that company will try to understand exactly what you are doing and will follow the basic rules.
If you were to not be so gentle with an NK, say doing traditional adversive methods of hitting, spanking or forcefully shoving your dog off of you, ect...would you eventually get bit?
I feel like negative reinforcement, while should never be used, is tolerated better by breeds like golden retrievers, and an NK breed just isn't going to stand for that and will resort to biting. (though, I have very little experience with any other breed, so please correct me if I am wrong!) IMO, an Akita needs to have a gentle but firm leader, not an adversive one.
I also think there are ways to be physical with a dog and gentle at the same time. Body posture is one way. But there have been times where I've had to restrain a dog without a colar on it. Grabbing a dog by the scruff can be done gently and it can be done harshly. When I've had to "scruff a dog" I've treated it like I was holding a live bird, enough pressure to make sure it doesn't get away, but not so much as to cause pain or harm. And I definitely would never shake or manipulate a dog by the scruff. The dog knows I've got a hold of it, but doesn't react to being touched. That's a gentle way to physically restrain a dog.
Most are familiar with the term "positive reinforcement", which is adding something to increase the chance of certain behavior happening in the future. "Negative Reinforcement" means removing something to increase the chance of certain behavior in the future, so an example of negative reinforcement could be stop all interaction/attention by turning you back to a jumping dog (assuming the dog jumps to get attention), you are removing the attention to the dog to increase the chance of the dog staying all 4 feet on the ground.
I agree with Dave about yelling.
When Juneau is in a full-on chase, the only way to get her attention is to yell, very loudly. If I don't do that she will continue to chase whatever animal she's after and potentially get lost or hit by a car. But yelling at her because she did not sit, or did not come fast enough, is stupid.
I knew that actually and should have thought better. I guess just meant negative as in bad, is what I meant.
I concur with others "I think firm = consistan and unfaltering... while gentle = kind and with out aversives (think "LIMA" - least invasive, minimally aversive)."
It is tough though, there is a learning curve and none of us is perfect, learning as we go. Frustration can be a big factor in how we address the unexpected infractions.
Sorry to say, but the "yellers" in my classes have been male or hard of hearing older people. I find that male trainees/students in a class have a tendency to push the voice button a bit more as well as tapping into the physical ruff up switch when really there is no need for it. Even if a dog is ripping up a dog bed there isn't a need to yell. A more assertive tone such as "Hey - enough" gets the point across with a low "enough" tone and a swift gesture to a crate ends a mid-chew on pillow as effectively if not more so in my opinion. I guess it depends on the dog, honestly if the dog is that "hard of hearing" or selectively listening then I would be revising or revisiting the consistency of the training. Some dogs are more malleable than others and have a higher sound threshold so maybe no harm done, but over time yelling can be stressful for some. I know for a great many Shibas and spitzy crosses etc the yelling or discord among humans gets you two steps back in the training dept. particularly indoors.
Snf
I think you have to strive to stay consistent, and try to keep your cool. I think that if you can do it the same most of the time, and stay cool most of the time, you are doing well. We aren't robots, we cannot do things the exact same every time, there has to be a margin of error...
That IMHO is where it comes back to positive renforcement: if you mess up when training a dog using positive renforcement the end result is less of a concern (and less damaging) than messing up using positive punishment.
But, yea, when Blue watches me walk out the door, and then barks at me through the window as if he didn't know I was there - I yell "knock it off Blue!"...
----
No one is perfect. I rarely yell at a dog, but I have been known to if they are doing something that is unsafe. Like Mei used to bolt over the fence and run for the street. Since I don't yell much, when I do it would stop her dead in her tracks. I don't think I've ever yelled at Koda. I've raised my voice so he can hear me, but that's about it.
There's not much yelling at the dogs in our house (though my husband is German and a bit hard of hearing and talks really really loud sometimes!), so when there is, it gets there attention! It's usually used to interrupt a behavior right now, and even then it's more raised voice than yelling, so like yesterday, when I saw Toby counter surfing and I called out "na na na" no reward marker, from the other room (of course, he first turns and looks at me--is she really watching?--before casually getting his paws off the counter).
Real yelling has only been in emergencies, when I worry about a dog getting hurt, and it happens so rarely, that it really gets their attention. It can be useful, which is why people shouldn't use it all the time or the dog gets accustomed to it.
eta: Dave, just saw your cool video! I don't consider the verbal correction yelling. I consider it a slightly raised voice, which is different to me. (as in my Toby counter surfing example). It was really cool to see Diesel too! he's coming along really well!
I yelled at Mei! It was loud and scared her enough to stop her from potentially running into a busy street. She's tough. She can handle it.
So, in my mind that is yelling. Probably because that's as loud as my voice ever gets. lol. If nobody else seems to think that's yelling, then I'll revise my opinion to say it's not necessary. :-)
Interesting that the term "yelling" has different interpretations depending on who is asked though. In class there was a husband wife team, and he was discussing with the wife and pointing out an technique she missed. The wife thought he was "yelling" rather than helpful criticism that was actually in a low tone LOL.
Thanks for the clip. In that particular training context seen in the video for retriever training your tone seems normal to me for an outside environment and it appears Diesel thinks its normal. Your partnership with Diesel is super actually. He is doing an awesome job and you should definitely be proud. Honestly you appear far more relaxed than you use to be based on previous issues with Joey.
Question....do you by chance have video with Tyson attempting the same tasks with the whistle and contact points? I am curious to see the difference in the two boys of different breeds. It would be so helpful if you have that footage to share.
Oh by the way my boy was going bonkers hearing that whistle. Had to turn off the sound *Grin*.... Gotta love a dog with drive. I took him out of field work in summer after being stung by bees. : ( Now that it's winter it's better but the leaf mold has allergies kicked up after two hrs in the woods. Just sucks.
Snf
Take an antihistimine and get back out in the woods with your boy! :-)