Bear Hunting

souggy

Since Gen and I are starting to hijack a thread about hunting bears and cougars, perhaps it's best to move the discussion in a topic of their own:

http://littleheelers.wordpress.com is mine.

It's mostly about Nordic spitzes, but sometimes I blog about my Shiba.

@souggy: Love the Blue-tick and Airedale bear dogs!

@shishiinu: Thanks.

I need to start posting about the different kind of dogs people use on bears and cougars up here. There is one guy who uses a pair of Border Collies, there's at least two or three I know of that uses Elkhounds, about three or four I know of that uses Akitas (all rescued from the SPCA-- so sadly they're neutered), one uses a Jadgterrier... Catahoula Curs, Dogos, German Shepherds, Pitbulls. There is so many variety, it's unreal. There's even a kennel which uses rez dogs (dogs that come from the Indian reservations.)

Most common is the Black and Tan Coonhound, but some people don't like them because they can be dumb when it come to cornering a tom in a cave. (The first Plott's imported to B.C. was about five years ago, I think-- even though they are the traditional dogs in Ontario.)

Holy crap that's amazing that there are so many varieties of dogs used. In the US its pretty much your typical hounds used for lion and bear. There are a few ridgebacks and airedales used for bear and hogs and there's a hog removal company in texas that uses labs for hogs. Good stuff! I'm really surprised to hear that the plott is fairly new to BC, they are the ideal big game hound out here.

From what I understand, the variation in the breeds used is largely dependent on what the owners expect from their dogs. Since Black Bears are easy to tree, since there are bow-hunters who charge at the bear to tree them, any dog that isn't afraid of a bear could be used. From what I read, not everyone wants to spend a couple of grands on tracking collars, a retro-fitted pick-up truck with a containment box and all the expenses associated with owning a pack of Coonhounds. Not everyone want to pursue their dogs for a few hours on ends-- and certainly some people don't' have the means to replace their dogs when things go horribly wrong. Hounds are really bad for not knowing what to do with a cornered cat or a bear taking the last stand. Some people are fine using their family dog because all they want to do is tree a bear, shoot it, go home as they don't want to spend all season having fun with the pack.

Riley, my Swedish Vallhund, has a natural bear-aggression as well. Well, given his breed is tenacious; and they are bred to guard the pastures and to keep the cattle within the pasture while the farmers are away, I am not surprised he has an inclination for this. However I am thinking of getting a second dog, because if Riley decided to chase a bear and the bear decided to stand his grounds, I don't want shit to hit the fan. Two dogs confuse the bear; one dog just gives them something to focus on.

Ideally, I would like a Karelian Bear Dog; but I don't live an ideal lifestyle where it is appropriate to own one given I live in middle of a metropolis. Besides, if one asks if they are good on Black Bears-- most of the houndsmen would laugh at you and say to get a hound or a Catahoula cur instead, because the KBD are bred for Brown Bears, or Grizzly in our part of the world; and that they are not bred to run long and hard. The one question I have though is: KBD are used for grouses, martens, European lyxnes anything that can be treed in their native homeland, correct? If the name of the game is to chase a bear up a tree, I don't see why the working behaviour of a Karelian can't be modified for the North American big games.

I means freakin' sakes, there was one guy in the Washington state sometimes in the '80s or '90s who had a pack of Pembroke Corgis to hunt bears before the people sitting around at Starbucks in Seattle decided it wasn't sporting to hunt bears; or cougars for that matter. I can tell you, a corgi can't run long and hard like a scenthound can; they tire out really easily and they don't run all that fast. That didn't stop him from using them.

Anyway, back to the topic. The reason why I have a bit of an obsession with the topic is because my Shiba Inu was a bear-runner. Yeah, he could tree anything, flush everything and catch rabbits-- but his moral enemy is that big ol' bear. Before, I didn't agree with hunting, but after owning a primitive hunting dog for 15 years, I don't see anything wrong with it because there is nothing better than watching a dog suddenly has his gears rotating and spinning once he figured out what he was born to do. And once they figure that out, it's extremely hard to break them of it.

Edit: Moved topic to "Hunting and Working"

shishiinu

Wow sounds like BC is has a completely different hunt scene then the US. Once thing though I have hunted with hounds and because their primary duty is to just bay, you wont see a lot of catching going on with hounds like red bones, blue ticks, and B&Ts. Plotts are almost in a different category of hounds, they are originally bred as bear dogs so they have more feist in them so you'll see plotts getting much more aggressive toward game. Also one of the reason hounds are used so much here is because of their cold nose, they are much more inclined to follow a scent that may be days to weeks old and they travel really far. Many of the NK and euro spitz are hot nose and sight hunters.

The California Fish and Game use KBDs as bear trackers are used to track and chase bears. I've seen them run quite a bit and travel prety far, seen some act like hounds. Kevin whos on here hunts with a KBD (Tuula) and he's been putting the hurt on game with his dog.

souggy

I don't think it's so much it's a different scene. I means, I remember someone from West Virginia tell me one of the bear hunters got tired of losing his Plott Hounds to the bears, so he trained a pack of Jack Russell Terriers to swarm; I think like 20 of them? There's one slight problem with this though: even though he never lost a terrier to a bear fight, he had a few Jacks that would latch onto the bear as it climbs the tree. You can see how he lost a few in this scenario. But he loses less Jacks than he lost Plott. However there are Plott Hound people who never lost a dog in 15 years. So I am wondering if the training methods are different and the expectations are different. It's just people who use different dogs don't really talk a lot.

The thing is, I like generalist dogs-- the type that will do everything for you, the "gi' her dune," if you ask them to, even if they mediocre with it. I am not too fond of idiot savants which people seem to worship-- you know the "superdog" that is only good for a few things. Probably because with that, people have this inherit bias where their dogs are the "ultimate" dog for a particular sport, game or work, when the truth is: what one person think is a good dog is not worth the kibbles to the next; and a lot of these people don't seem to understand the concept of "context," as in certain dogs make sense in certain context. So I am biased in deliberately seeking these accounts out.

You, as someone who went out of his way to get Kishus, probably would understand that. I means, you could easily could had went with Pitbulls and Catahoulas as your "hawgdawgs"-- but you didn't.

But if I recall correctly, people used to hunt cougars with farm collies on Vancouver Island, probably the Old-Time Scotch Collie or English Shepherd, who knows, before Coonhounds were imported in the 1920s and 1930s. Ever since then, along with the Airedales, they [Coonhounds] became the main "bear dogs" up here. They [Coonhounds] still are the vast majority-- to the point where they seems to be the ONLY dogs we have at first glance.

I am sure if one looks hard enough in the States, they will find just as many variety of dogs. (Edit: Thought so... found Blackmouth Curs, Mountain Curs and Catahoula Curs doing the same work.)

souggy

The California Fish and Game use KBDs as bear trackers are used to track and chase bears. I've seen them run quite a bit and travel prety far, seen some act like hounds. Kevin whos on here hunts with a KBD (Tuula) and he's been putting the hurt on game with his dog.

Funny you mentioned that. A Finn almost lost his dog (KBD) that way. For some reason a Brown Bear decided to run, and it ran toward the Russian border. He had to drive about 3 hours to pick up his dog. Thanks to the GPS collar, he found the dog holed up underneath an abandoned fence-post about 50 meters away from the border!

We use KBD for "bear-shepherding" here too in Banff and Jasper. There's a few other places I can't recall. For some reason, Animal Control and Conservation Officers prefer to use Coonhounds; the park rangers prefer KBDs. But I guess... they have completely goals in mind: one is to remove the nuisance; the other is for "hazing."

MirkaM

These things happen every year that someone's hunting dog cross the border. Sometimes the dog has to stay in the quarantine but usually not.

souggy

@MirkaM: While doing predator work in Finland, do people worry about losing their dogs?

I know Russians say lynxes can be very nasty and can tear a laika up; but since Grizzly Bears are protected here, we don't hear a lot about dogs being used on Grizzlies. Their closest counterparts are Polar Bears, which are known to eat sled dogs, and the Eurasian Brown Bears.

shishiinu

@souggy: Thats really cool about the Jacks hunting bears, I can just picture a pack of yapping Jacks chasing a big old black bear up a tree and dangling 15 feet above the ground. The whole "my dogs are the best" thinking is extremely big in the US boar dog scene. I have people ak me why I went through all the trouble of getting dogs from overseas when I could have one of their "best hog pups". And usually the same people will almost always tell me that my dogs will never hunt like theirs.

I dont think there are too many people using pure cat and cur dogs anymore since most hog hunters I see mix a number of different dogs to achieve the one dog can do it all deal. With the direction the economy is heading, I have heard more then once of hunters down sizing their packs so I see more bullyXcatXhound type of dogs running around. Almost always I see bull dogs since many hog hunters think by having a bull dog mixed in some where, their trike dogs will be decent catch dog also.

I'm just more into the Kishu because I really like the way they hunt and the fact that I dont have to have 4 dogs to complete a hog hunting pack. They can be a excellent strike dog, either bay or catch once they find a hog its the one gun one dog hunting that I really like. Although I would love to hunt with a pack consisting of Kishu, Kai, a hongawa Shikoku, a ainu, anda jagd terrier!

souggy

I know what you means.

My dream dog is Ayka:







[Images: Potokera RR]

Diplomas : I protein, 2 - I grouse, I grouse, I duck, II marten, II mink, II deer, II boar free, II polecat, II blood trail

(They say a dog good on boars is equally as good on bears)

MirkaM

@Souggy: Hunters biggest concern in Finland is to lose your dog to the wolves not cross the border. Wolves kill every year several hunting dogs while the hunting season. In the very small city where I'm from every year 3-10 dogs is killed by the wolves when they are hunting like baying a rabbit. Here in Finland hunters are using more and more "wolf jerkin" to their dogs which gives protection against wolf attacks. Unfortunately those are quite expensive. I don't know the acute number of dogs who are killed by wolves but the number is getting higher every year. Reason for this is that wolves are protected.
Lynx aren't so big threat but I know that they can be dangerous. Few years back in our neighbour city the lynx literally torn dog alive through cage

ayk

What's a wolf jerkin?

MirkaM

It protect dog from wolf attacs. This is "Swedish" model http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l248/moonneito/vargvast_1_s.jpg and this Finnish http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l248/moonneito/susiliivit.jpg. Finnish version use electric shock.

souggy

@MirkaM:

Sorry for not clarifying it. I meant in regarding to baying predators.

The biggest concern we have here is wolves as well. People lost their Pointers and Spaniels to the wolves. Sometimes the occasional beagle will be lost-- although no one know who's the suspect. Bears are afraid of dogs, because a wolf will attack a bear, so they don't attack dogs unless provoked.

To be honest, if you are going to worry about wolves and stay at home, you might as well never take your dog outside. Cougars are known to go into people's backyards to eat their precious poodle without regard for the presence of the owner(s); coyotes are bold enough to attack Maltese while people are walking them on a leash.

Never seen that device before. I have seen it on Livestock Guardians in other countries, but those collars are banned here.

ayk

Thanks for clarifying what a wolf jerkin is. I was imagining a big wolf-killing dog that would escort the hunting dogs.

shishiinu

That is a gnarly looking vest! Thank God there are no wolves in socal but we do have to deal with cougars though. Riki was a pro at treeing bobcats, I think he loved chasing bobcats more then any other game. He has a big scar on his snout from getting scratched by a bobcat the first time he went after one. So far Taro and Yuki love chasing rabbits and squirrels until they bust a hog out and then its on like donkey kong.