Kaiju's Hips...
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    Well, I was SURE Kaiju had HD - I mean I was 99% sure of it - but take a look...

    Kaiju-Hip-1

    Kaiju-Hip-2

    They look pretty good, huh? No HD there, as far as I can tell.

    So, you know, once again this is an example of how much I have to learn. We'll be sending these to our Ortho expert for his opinion but I think his hips look pretty good.

    Why does he move like he has HD tho? He bunny-hops at times, he falls over a lot (he has horrible footing), and he seems to have pain at times. He's also pretty weak in his back-end - even with 2 walks a day and lots of free-play. His knees look good too, tho he is strait in his rear, but that's pretty typical of NK.

    So what do you think? Could there be another issue, or am I just hyper-aware (paranoid) of movement issue due to owning so many screwed up dogs? Why is his back-end so weak? He gets as much exercise as the rest of our NK and they all have very strong back-ends. Thoughts???

    ----
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2011-04-26 18:06:16
  • KevinKevin
    Posts: 346
    That IS strange. Tuula kind of bunny hops sometimes, but does not seem to have bad footing or pain.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    Could his weak back end be due to a neurological issue, not necessarily something serious but maybe a pinched nerve? Or maybe even a sore muscle or sprain?

    I remember talking with Kathi (of Bali Hai) about how Tetsu Waddles and my worry that it was from HD. She said that sometimes that is just the way the individual dog will walk, that not always does something have to be wrong for them to move odd.
    image
  • my money is on hyper-awareness compounded by so many traumatic puppies of past.
    Fuzzy Gang Signature
  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 590
    His hip sockets look a little shallow to me, I am not a doctor however. But, comparing them to x-rays of police dogs who come in for hip and elbow clearances for police work, they don't look as deep and seated as those. Jmo

    Now if you search normal canine hip xray images online, they look pretty comparable so they could be fine. Hmmm
    Kohji - Kai Ken
    Taj - Shiba Inu
    Post edited by kwyld at 2011-04-26 20:51:26
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    Yea, they do look shallow now that you mention it. Would that cause pain?

    ----
  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 590
    What does he do that makes you think he's in pain? And when you say weak in the rear, like wobbly, laying down on walks a lot, dragging his rear legs, knuckling over, ataxia, slowly moving his rear end down in the middle of doing something, trouble with stairs...
    Kohji - Kai Ken
    Taj - Shiba Inu
    Post edited by kwyld at 2011-04-26 21:31:15
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    Did the vet rule out pano?
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    I say pain because some times he favors one side or the other, also he is slow to get up sometimes, and he is uber-reactive. He will initiate play but then tip into a fight as soon as it gets too rough which, IMHO, is very indicative of a dog suffering from pain of some kind.

    As for his footing, in the house he slips really easily. Our floors are slippery but the only other dog I've ever seen slip and fall a lot like Kaiju is Kahuna (who has severe HD).

    Also, his back-end (hips) is narrow and the muscles on his legs are underdeveloped, which is common with HD. When he runs he bunny-hops.

    Having written all that, when he trots his movement is really nice.

    Vet didn't mention Pano, but it had crossed my mind.

    ----
  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 590
    I dunno, with all that said he could have mild hd, a luxating patella or it could be nothing. I wonder if that's why he was snapping at Ahi when she was near his rear in that vid you posted in the other thread.

    Taj also has underdeveloped muscles in her hind legs and hips, really straight back legs and slips like she's walking on ice in our kitchen which is bamboo (I'll see if I can get a video of it). She navigates carpeted floors and pavement just fine and can jump up and down off of things ok. I had one of our orthopods look at her a few years ago because I thought for sure she had something going on in the rear that could be contributing to the way she looks/navigates surfaces and the fact that she circles to the left when she gets worked up. The doctor examined her and said she was normal. Oh, and she looks normal when she trots too.

    I also had our ophthalmologist examine her because I thought she was getting early cataracts, and she said her eyes were completely normal.
    Kohji - Kai Ken
    Taj - Shiba Inu
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    Alright, someone help me know what to look for when looking at these x-rays. I've seen lots of x-rays, and I really have no idea what good hips look like versus bad hips. Is there a web page that shows the difference or something?
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
    image
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    @kwyld - That's interesting, sounds very similar to Kaiju. The video you mention, that is a perfect example of how he acts with dogs around his rear - very reactive. A lot of the time he will initiate play, but then it will tip into a confrontation because they knock him down in a way that makes him fall on his rear. Just seems like he is in pain and is defensive about it. He could just be an asshole tho. who knows. :oT

    @hondru - Here are Kahun's hips at about the same age...

    kahuna-Hips-1

    Note the gap between the ball and the socket (especially on the left). The ball of doesn't fit into the socket as tightly as Kaiju's x-rays... but also notice Kaiju's sockets are shallower than Kahuna's, so maybe that points to an issue.

    ----
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2011-04-27 00:41:17
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    Posts: 4055
    He's fine. His hips look good.

    With that said I used to worry about Koda. He bunny hops and favors sides sometimes. He seems to have weak back legs. He will limp one day. Koda is extensively exercised and is an avid hiker with me. I jad his hips and knees checked and he's fine. His hips looked great in fact.

    I'm thinking you have the same situation on your hands. It still worries me at times but I trust my vet and the orthopedic surgeon.

    Koda was limping two days ago.
  • MirkaMMirkaM
    Posts: 1248
    Could it be Legg-Perthes?
    Kai will lay down its life to protect its master.
    photo banneri_zpsc6e1d74e.jpg
    Kennel Gekkoo No: http://gekkoonoen.webs.com/index.htm
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    Actually, to me Kaiju's sockets look deeper than Kahuna's
    image
  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 590
    Maybe it's not his hips, maybe it's his lower back. Does he carry his tail down a lot?
    Kohji - Kai Ken
    Taj - Shiba Inu
  • JennABJennAB
    Posts: 72
    Here is the OFA link showing the differences in hips, excellent to severe. http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html

    I had a shiba with moderate HD and he ran and moved so nicely ( I really should have had him tested again). I think it all depends on the animal to weather or not HD affects their living or causes pain. I hope Kaiju's hips are fine. Keep us posted.

    Jenn, family and the Shiba pack.
  • thanks for the OFA link....My old GSD had serious hip problems and arthritis, and his hips looked very much like the example of "severe" on that web page....shallow sockets, etc. And poor boy, you could see the arthritis spurs on his spine, and one some of this vertebrae looked fused together. He's gone now (about this time last year) but he had been in a lot of pain, hopped, was slow getting up, etc. But we could see all that in x-rays when he was about 4 or 5.

    Anyway, I hope Kaiju is ok.

    What is pano?
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • jujeejujee
    Posts: 724
    Wow what a difference in Kaiju's and Kahuna's x-rays.

    I do hope everything is okay with the little guy!

    thx @JennAB for the link!
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3008
    Hope things are Ok with Kaiju. =)

    Photobucket
    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    Response from our ortho specialist...

    "Hi Brad,

    These hips look very good from my point of view. They certainly do not definitively rule out hip dysplasia, though to argue that he is having a clinical problem in his hind end… such radiographs should show problems. In a juvenile, I would be looking for such problems as luxating patellas. I know it is a drive, though if you want a once over I am sure Scot or myself would be happy to see you."


    His patellas were cleared by our vet, but maybe we should have them checked by a specialist too. I think we will drive him to The Springs when he is closer to 1.5 years, he's so young now - things can change.

    ----
  • JennABJennAB
    Posts: 72
    So happy to hear!! Ya Kaiju.

    Jenn, family and the Shiba pack.
  • Seems like if it was the patellas you'd know...they move differently than you're describing with the patellas, and there is that distinctive mule kick effect....plus it is super easy to feel if it is sliding in and out of place...

    Anyway, hope this is good news, then, that even your Ortho thought the x-rays looked good.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • dlrobertsdlroberts
    Posts: 6552
    That's great news man. Of course it doesn't solve the mystery of his rear end issues, but I'd take the confusion over HD any day.

    Its probably Just a puppy thing he'll grow out of. A lot of puppies develop strangely and even out as they get older. Hopefully he's one of them.
    dlrobertsdlroberts
    Dave, proudly owned by Joey (Shiba Inu), Tyson (Kai Ken), and PRG's Mason Julien McDieserton III, a.k.a. Diesel (Labrador Retriever).
    "My opinion may have changed, but not the fact that I'm right"
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 4534
    I agree with Dave... Glad to hear that the ortho thinks his x-rays look great. Hopefully it is just a juvenile mis-proportion thing than anything serious.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
  • jenzjenz
    Posts: 65
    <<Why does he move like he has HD tho? He bunny-hops at times, he falls over a lot (he has horrible footing), and he seems to have pain at times. He's also pretty weak in his back-end - even with 2 walks a day and lots of free-play.>>

    This sounds almost exactly like my Clifford, who had Lumbosacral Stenosis in his lower spine. I'm not a vet but I would absolutely have them X-ray your pup's back... it sounds neurological/spinal to me... so sorry you have to go through this. :(

    Jen
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3008
    I dunno what this could be Saya bunny hops and only walks normal when she walks slow. Saya's xray at 6month showed there was something up with her spine so I think it's Neurological/spinal too. probably why she doesn't swim with her back legs just front..

    I hope it's just growing pains, but who knows still good to check it out I guess.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
    Post edited by Saya at 2011-04-29 13:04:59
  • AjaxAjax
    Posts: 105
    Reviving an old thread since the description of Kaiju sounds a lot like Ajax with the exception that Ajax's back end is jacked and he doesn't have a weak hind end.
    He's clumsy, has horrible footing, stiff walk, really nice trot, but funny gallop, often favors a leg and swims 3-legged so I'm not imagining it.

    Vet cleared his hips and knees. The hip x-rays look good, had his patellas checked, also took X-rays of both knees (i really thought his problem was in the right stifle). Every thing looks good. Could it just be growing pains? The vet said there was no sign of pano and his growth plates are closed. I seem to remember some talk of mysterious joint pains afflicting young male Shikoku's. For reference he's a year old now and 47.5 pounds.

    image

  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 3216
    if the structure is fine, then the weird movement is not neurological, I hope? :(
  • AjaxAjax
    Posts: 105
    I sure hope not. I'm still leaning to that he has some right knee pain (that's why we had the knee x-rays). He has hit it three times, first time on concrete jumping up, second time on the edge of the coffee table while jumping down, and third while colliding with a 90 lb female Rottweiler friend. Each time was hard enough to go on three legs for a while, always the right leg and its the right leg that he doesn't swim with.

    Of course I may just be paranoid. We were at the dog park today and Ajax was playing with a little beagle/shepard mix and her owner commented how his dog was running all out, but Ajax has a lackadaisical big boy run. I'm not quite sure what he meant, I thought it kinda looked like he was favoring a leg.

    As for the clumsiness that has slowly been improving. Now he occasionally performs feats of agility too. I was lying down on the the sofa the other day and he was standing on the other side of the sofa arm. From a standstill, he jumped straight up and landed with all four feet balancing on the sofa arm in order to suffocate me with kisses. :)
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    @Ajax - Any chance you could share a video of his movement? I'm curious.
  • AjaxAjax
    Posts: 105
    I haven't been able to get a good video yet. I took him to the woods today for a good 2+ hour romp and he was moving great. He's out for the night now. When the lake reopens in the spring I'm hoping he'll swim with all four legs. BTW do you sill have any video of Ahi's limp. I was looking in old threads, but the video links were dead.
  • brennamwkbrennamwk
    Posts: 51
    This may sound crazy, but our shiba was showing hind end weakness for a year after a slight injury. We tried everything and got multiple vet opinions, but everything looked great and they couldn't tell what had been injured and why it the symptoms kept coming back. In desperation, we went to a homeopathic vet thinking that maybe we should try every approach for our little guy. She started him on an acupuncture therapy and some chiropractic work. Now, he's been great and the hind end weakness has disappeared. I never believed in acupuncture until Kuma tried it, but there's no denying it strengthened his hind end back up to where it should be after multiple vets had no idea why he was having problems.
  • AjaxAjax
    Posts: 105
    I'm all for trying every option but I have trouble seeing anyone who advertises as a "homeopathic" vet as anything but a snake-oil salesman let alone trusting them with my animal.

    True homeopathy is literally selling you water. You end up dealing with dilutions so extreme it is statically unlikely that even one molecule of the "active ingredient" is in the final product.

    Sorry for the rant, since the placebo effect does not work in animals I find applying this to animal medicine as morally reprehensible. (I've read one study in which they did, but those dogs where given actual medicine before switching to a placebo and was designed to help the dogs form the association with eating a pill and then feeling better, not much different from classical conditioning really.)

    I'm glad that it was successful for Kuma. :) And for the record, acupuncture, chiropractic work, herbal remedies, etc. are not homeopathy. While I'm highly skeptical of the mechanics of chi in acupuncture and the "straight philosophy" of chiropractors, I will concede that they are at least doing something physical to the body and may be working by some mechanism that isn't understood.

    One of my co-workers is a big fan of acupuncture, but she warned me that there is a big difference between those who are actually skilled at the practice and those who are just sticking pins into points defined in a book. I don't think I know enough to judge a good acupuncturist from a bad for either me or my pet.
    Post edited by Ajax at 2017-04-01 16:25:36

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

In this Discussion