Shiba hunting pheasants
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2336
    While surfing youtube, I found this vid on a guy hunting Japanese copper pheasants with a shiba. I think this if my first time seeing a hunting shiba. Not the best quality but pretty cool stuff.

    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2336
    Ummmm how bout this.

    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    That's awesome! Thanks for posting the vid.
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  • Really cool to see a Shiba hunting...I know the history, and see the prey drive in action, but have always been curious about hunting with them went, so this gives me a taste, at least.

    Though of course, if it were labeled person chasing after off-leash Shiba, I'd believe that too! *lol*
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 4526
    My little Shiba (Nola) hunts birds... I do not really let her do it on purpose, but that girl is keen and FAST!

    Several times while hiking, she will dash into the brush and come out with a grouse or quail. It is a little disconcerting for me (being vegetarian and all), but it is kind of cool to see. With a little training, she could probably be a great bird dog! She would just have to be on lead because she has HORRIBLE recall. :-P
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
  • dlrobertsdlroberts
    Posts: 6552
    That's really interesting. I don't know too many western bird dogs that would really thrive hunting in that terrain. I feel like we just got a glimpse into the development of the Shiba. :-)
    dlrobertsdlroberts
    Dave, proudly owned by Joey (Shiba Inu), Tyson (Kai Ken), and PRG's Mason Julien McDieserton III, a.k.a. Diesel (Labrador Retriever).
    "My opinion may have changed, but not the fact that I'm right"
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3419
    What is that noise in the background?
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  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2336
    I have no idea. Its really poor quality but I saw a shiba in there a few times so I figure...
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2336
    Check these Shibas out

    hunting shiba 2

    hunting shiba
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 4526
    Okay... I was finally able to watch the video... Lindsay, I think the camera was mounted on some sort of self calibration device... It only made the noise when the camera was moving.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
  • KevinKevin
    Posts: 346
    Sweet. IF I could get a Shiba from hunting lines, I would consider it. I think it would be a lot like dealing with Tuula.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3419
    Awesome pictures! @ Kevin, me too. I have a very drivey girl out of a very sharp import. Of all the temperment types I have seen in breeding shibas, her sire has the type I would use for work if I hunted, but I don't hunt, so I can't judge what is best ability for that in a dog. I am hoping to put my money where my mouth is by having the puppy start early in performance events at least. I can't afford to lose her in the woods, lol, so no hunting likely, tracking hopefully.
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  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    Again, that's so awesome! I would love to hunt quail and/or pheasants with a Shiba. That sounds so neat.
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  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    This is soooo cool! I am totally going to do bird hunting with a shiba someday. I bet it's tricky to find the right pup for hunting these days, but wouldn't it be cool to start a line of actual working shibas in NA? They aren't worked too often in Japan either, are they, Shigeru? @TheWalrus Are there kennels for hunting shibas, or are they mostly pet/show lines?

    I'd totally be up for that kind of breeding program. It reminds me of the Basenji Native Traits thingy.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    Oh man, I'd be up for a hunting line of Shibas as well!
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  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1671
    Cool pictures, I hazard a guess this is how many of the Shibas of the past have been. It is possible to get the character in a Shiba, they are out there, but seems few and far between here in the U.S. I have not met anyone who hunts Shibas. Hunting drive may not be seen as a value so I think passed up in a program that does not see the merit. Maybe the breed is too hard to train in American/British fashion of hunting. If there are dogs that do not throw the hunting character they may be few and far between to pass on to the majority of dogs in the breeding population. Conformation seems to be the emphasis instead. I don't know of anyone who breeds specifically for hunting lines as in the other breeds, such as spaniels, retrievers etc


    Lindsay: Yep that line is very "drivy"!! It think this character is something that should be pulled through in the breed though. I would love to see the emphasis on that for sure. I have this same character in mine dog from that line as well and I would not trade it for the world. Air, land and sea with great retrieve.... Not common at all. Plus he has an off switch. He compares with the field spaniels in capability. He has a softer mouth for a Shiba but still harder than a golden or spaniels on retrieve or when in full drive. He also is bossy so working in a pair he will tend to push the other more experienced dog off its course if care is not taken to manage focus and keep separate. You can NOTclump him like a pack of spaniels who group like a school of fish. He watches carefully so he is learning. The "mine" factor has to be proofed worked around constantly, especially in new locations. Don't know how far I will take it though. No live birds yet just decoy and that retrieve is going ok 89 - 97% on land depending on the day. Water not so great or consistent. He is pretty good with gun fire and helicopters .... He will actually follow the ranger copter, which is kind of scary. We have only been out about 4 times. My shiba overheats quickly as well, so warm upland fields are tough on him without a cool coat. That is hugely expensive and I don't know I want to make the investment for just mucking about. Just testing out for kicks has been interesting though.... I thank the Field Sp. people for allowing me to do so. I am pushing more toward agility, nose work and tracking instead. We shall see where it all leads. Only so much time in a day or days off.....

    --Oh forgot to mention....if one is not experienced with hunting dogs you will definitely need a mentor. Without the assistance of the FSP club I would have not been able to try it out. At this point I won't go the route of ear pinching etc to reinforce retrieve or force release so pretty much I probably am at a stopping point I imagine.

    --Oh has anyone had problems with their NK dog retrieving a nylon bumper? Plastic is ok but anything with nylon seems to be rejected for some reason. He doesn't seem to like the texture of the material, maybe the smell.

    Here is a link http://www.flickr.com/photos/shibasswim2/

    Snf
    Post edited by StaticNfuzz at 2011-06-03 19:13:27
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 2993
    Nice video and very nice picture of the shiba inu with their prize. =)

    I wouldn't mind owning a shiba inu with that type of drive I'd love it.
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    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12209
    Are there Shiba Inu out there who would not have the instincts to chase a bird? Is that common in Shiba?

    For a bird-dog Shiba I would think "willing to please" would be the most important factor. Obviously drive is important, but most of the healthy Shiba I have met would be more than happy to chase a bird.

    I think sharpness and the ability to take pressure is very important in a (large or small) game dog, but not so much a bird-dog. Actually, I would guess "sharpness" would get in the way in a bird-dog. And birds put very little pressure on a dog, so their ability to take pressure would probably not matter much for bird work. @dlroberts I think can speak to this with Tyson, who is a pretty sharp Kai Ken.

    My point is, the Shiba I have met (which is admittedly far fewer than Lindsay, Patrice, and others have met) had a nice prey instinct and loved to chase. Ours would work well for treats and seemed to enjoy OB if you kept it moving at their speed (which is super fast) and pretty much all the Shiba I have met had boundless energy (even Kaia with her issues - tho maybe not so much as she gets up there in her years)... Jeez, I can't stop rambling...

    Again, my point is, if I were to have a Shiba breeding program and wanted to focus on their hunting prowess I would mos def choose birds as my game and I would breed for a personality that produced high-stamina, easily trained, noise-tolerant, and focused pups... I might not worry as much about grit and sharpness, as that may end up detracting from their ability to perform well as a bird-dog.

    In the Shiba I have met, I've seen a lot of fear-biting anxious dogs, so certainly adding some "coolness under pressure" qualities (keep the "fight" in them, but suppress it a bit) in there would be an improvement and wouldn't hurt their ability to do the Shiba bird-dog thing. IMHO

    Now if I were to choose a non-bird game I would mos def select for grit and sharpness with lots of "coolness under pressure".

    ----
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12209
    I'll add: it would be really cool to see some Shiba breeders focus on producing "working Shiba Inu".

    Tho, there may already be Shiba breeders out there who are focused on that angle, I dunno.

    ----
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    Tojo was a very cool cucumber, I think he had many of the traits that would have worked for this. He performed really well in obedience class (better than the poodles!) and I had him off-leash a lot.

    I seem to remember a yahoo group for working shibas, but they focused mainly on agility. Although, agility would require many of the same characteristics.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1671
    Brad writes: I would breed for a personality that produced high-stamina, easily trained, noise-tolerant, and focused pups."

    I regard to your question. I don't know of a Shiba that doesn't like a chase. It's the follow through that is of issue. Some are full bore stalk and grab and others give up. Just depends on the dog.

    --Easily trained is relative. High stamina, usually that isn't an issue with a healthy dog. But there is a difference between what some perceive as stamina and just needless nervous energy.... Sometimes hard to distinguish and mistakenly labeled as drive. A fine line but important. Grit is another one where there is a fine line. Persistence is needed yet not over intense.

    Also a dog that has the capability to see and decipher outside of its visual reference line (ie. above, the ground, and far way when not on the same plane of vision) is awesome to work with and more flexible in terms of hunting. Not all dogs are able to take multiple perceptions and apply to their own vantage point. The best ones in any breed have this multiple adaptation without much training. These are the gifted ones.

    High ticket items in my book...Noise tolerance, ability to relax, and human focused early on, are elements that probably could be selected for and necessary to a greater degree. I don't know how easily "visual reference" dogs are able to pass along their character. I would hazard a guess that it too could be selected for.

    Most troublesome in my opinion is a hard mouth, as Dave mentioned in another thread.
    Snf
    Post edited by StaticNfuzz at 2011-06-03 18:52:44
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12209
    Yea, I agree, "easily trained" is relative... "human focused" is a better way to put it.

    I'm sure confirmation plays a large role in stamina too. Perhaps "working confirmation" (think Blue's lanky dry body vs a Neo's over-done large body) and not "high-stamina" is a better way to say what I was trying to address.

    ----
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 2993
    Saya is no hunter or anything, but I wouldn't mine working with her in tracking different game like quail or something like that. Saya is actually pretty good off leash in my back yard or field area.

    Today I fed her a whole quail I got off hare today and did some playing around sadly had no one to old her so she couldn't see where I dragged the quail to, but It was the best I could do.

    I got it on picture mostly and on video at the end wished I just did it on video oh well I got like 6 or so quail left. my next attempt I'll do better.

    Saya did pretty decent we did some scent work at her obedience class, but sadly I forgot how to train it, but she seemed to catch onto the scent pretty good maybe next time I'll tie her leash to a tree so she can't see exactly where it got dragged to.

    I did this for fun though since Saya loves following scents if a deer or rabbit went by.

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    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1671
    Question, so are those photos above from Japanese hunters? I wonder if there are any people seriously hunting Shiba in the U.S.?

    Snf

    Post edited by StaticNfuzz at 2011-06-03 19:07:33
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2336
    Yes those photos are from japanese hunters and their shibas. As far as I know the only people hunting with their nk's are just dave and myself. I don't think there is anyone hunting with shibas in the us but I can be wrong.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1671
    Great photos of Saya. I had no idea how much work it was until I met the spaniel people and spent couple of days trying to catch on. They live, eat, and breath it. The Japanese approach to training may be way different than here.

    Snf
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1977
    I remember a bird-hunting Shiba that was posted on the old shibasports website. I had the impression that the dog was owned by a US hunter. The website is long gone though so I can't confirm.
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1977
    Found this year old post on facebook:

    Monica Monroe
    "I live in kansas and have taken my 6month old shiba hunting 3 or 4 times this last season for quail and pheasant. He really gets in the zone and stays about 30ft in front of me. Retrieving is something we are working on during the off season using a block of wood we nailed quail wings to. Giving the dog a job and purpose like hunting definitely is an excellent way to focus energy that could become destructive and unpredictable."

    Maybe someone else can pursue this lead?
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2336
    Wow thats awesome!
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    I'd like to contact her. Where's this post from? There's (predictably) more than one Monica Monroe on facebook.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    Found her website! Check it out: http://moonbeamshibas.com/

    Awesome! Thanks for posting that. You're like a shiba detective.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 2993
    Wow neat! I wish she had a bit more with her hunting with her shiba inu.
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    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
    Post edited by Saya at 2013-07-12 13:18:54
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3419
    I don't know her at all. That's awesome she hunts her Shiba and she is the exception, like Gen and Dave.

    I don't hunt at all. I completely back my bitch line however in terms of working drive and she (Farrah) is what I am selecting for. She's doing great in Flyball lessons so far and holds a strong bite under pressure, great retrieve and doesn't give up. She is prooving to be quite a capable hunter for moles and birds. Her nephew is trying out for the team as well and her other nephew who lived with me for a bit also had incredible drive, and like Patrice's boy, it comes down from their shared sire/grandsire who is consistently producing dogs with outstanding drive, steady nerves and great type.

    I'm not sure how to even go about "training" Farrah to hunt since I don't have those connections that Patrice has and I don't want to lose my foundation bitch in the wilderness. I would love to know more about it however and if there are other, safer ways to prove ability.

    From the age of 4 weeks, with the breeders assistance, I have been working with her on drive, focus and confidence, and giving her as many opportunities to be successful in prey games (hunting quail wings, loud noise exposure, retrieves and bite work under pressure, etc) as possible. I don't really have to do much work with her aside from providing opportunity, as she is a natural.
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  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 3663
    This is really cool. It's so interesting to hear about Shibas hunting! Certainly my female has the drive, but unfortunately, she's pretty unsound in a lot of other ways.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • LambaréLambaré
    Posts: 1
    There existed two books about hunting copper pheasant using Shibas. Both are out of print now. I managed to buy one and trying to get another on online auction.
    The author of latter one took the video which shishiinu had post at top.

    In Japan Police is quite strict to hunters for keeping licenses and guns. The average age of hunters is getting older and older every year.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3419
    I read a really cool Shiba book the other day, produced in Australia of all places and geared toward lineage and tradition of Shiba Inu in that country. Well, being the wild outback, there was quite a nice section on hunting with the breed. The author recomended the breed for copper pheasant, small game birds and rabbits. Training should start at 4 months. The dog should be started on a sock filled with feathers (or fur) of the intended prey, and learn to retrieve with that. Eventually, the dummy is hidden further and further from the dog and the dog learns to seek that scent where ever he goes, and then the dog is put on to real game. Apparently it is bad to cross train the dog to rabbit and fowl, since the tracking is very different, and when the dog goes out to hunt fowl, it will try to also hunt rabbit and mess up the hunt. The author then writes that a correctly trained shiba can be taught to point as reliably as any western dog, but of course the training process is more difficult/longer.
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  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    @Lambaré and @lindsayt

    What are these books called? I want them!
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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    Post edited by Heidi at 2011-06-19 11:42:53
  • dlrobertsdlroberts
    Posts: 6552
    Almost any dog can be taught to stand for game. Most pointer enthusiasts would scoff at the notion that a dog like a Shiba will "point" though. I'm on the fence about it. When you see a real pointer slam onto point and hold it for 5 minutes, it's a pretty impressive sight. It's not quite as impressive when a natural flusher stands for game.
    dlrobertsdlroberts
    Dave, proudly owned by Joey (Shiba Inu), Tyson (Kai Ken), and PRG's Mason Julien McDieserton III, a.k.a. Diesel (Labrador Retriever).
    "My opinion may have changed, but not the fact that I'm right"
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    Dave, would you consider hunting birds with a shiba? You seem to be in a good position to try something like that.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • dlrobertsdlroberts
    Posts: 6552
    I would hunt for birds with any dog that really enjoyed hunting for birds. I'd rather hunt for birds with a Shiba that loves it than a pointer that doesn't. To me, bird hunting isn't about getting game, it is about watching a dog do its thing. I'd rather hunt over a well trained, enthusiastic dog and find nothing in 8 hours than a dog that quits after 2 hours but finds 10 birds in that time. So, @hondru, the answer is yes. I would definitely hunt birds with a Shiba if it was the right Shiba.
    dlrobertsdlroberts
    Dave, proudly owned by Joey (Shiba Inu), Tyson (Kai Ken), and PRG's Mason Julien McDieserton III, a.k.a. Diesel (Labrador Retriever).
    "My opinion may have changed, but not the fact that I'm right"
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    Awesome.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3419
    @hondru

    "the Shiba Inu" by G.A.A. Lane
    ISBN: 0-646-02169-9
    November 1990
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  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    Thanks! I ordered a copy. Now if only the postal strike would end so I can get it in this life time.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    Yes those photos are from japanese hunters and their shibas. As far as I know the only people hunting with their nk's are just dave and myself. I don't think there is anyone hunting with shibas in the us but I can be wrong.


    *waves*

    Except, um... this one doesn't hunt anymore. Old age and all. Good all-purpose dog. Haven't met another Shiba of the same calibre though.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2011-08-13 13:47:02
  • This thread is old but it seemed the most appropriate place to add this query. Sorry for the long post.

    Has anyone seen shibas do a hunt non-solo? I ask because small animals have recently been making their way into our yard, and usually around our dogs' midnight constitutional, I've had the pleasure of frantically trying to get my shibas to stop hunting while trying to throw clothes on and finding a flashlight. While I enjoy watching them, it's rather cruel to the other animals (especially the outdoor cats).

    What piques my interest really is that they fall naturally into hunting as a pair and the pattern has remained consistent. First they sort of bay, which is how we were alerted every time; the bark they use for prey is very distinctive. Then our boy (bigger, stronger, of equal or slightly slower speed, but less focused, less smart, and less drivey) takes the main spot in pinning the animal down in location. Our girl (smarter, more drivey, more tenacious, of equal or slightly faster speed, more agile) takes back-up. They close the circle in slowly and our girl will dart around cutting off avenues of escape every time the animal in question tries to make a break for it. Once they get close enough they dart in and out a bit, taking turns striking until victory is achieved. Our girl has no interest in tearing the animal apart, but our boy does (which necessitates a very late night bath).

    I usually see talk about nk hunting solo and not being good in a pack, so the fact that they naturally fall into this cooperative pattern without distracting each other is very interesting to me. For those who have seen they dogs' prey drive inaction, have you seen something similar?

    For background, we live in a city, in a pretty urban area with a small yard. I am told by long time residents though, that there is strangely a lot of wildlife that wanders even into our area. Both my dogs come from show lines. Their sire is a Japanese import, but one that I always understood to not be sharp (perhaps I am mistaken, @lindsayt is more familiar with the sire's lines than I am). Their dam's lines are american in origin and also as I understand it, not particularly sharp. My breeder was breeding for slightly softer, more people oriented dogs though with instincts intact. My two are full brother and sister from different litters. The boy is retired from conformation. The girl is a bit of an outlier from my breeder's program as she is much sharper, more drivey, and far less people oriented than the other dogs in his program. They are very bonded with each other.

    We don't hunt, but we allow them to tree animals on leash. The boy tends to barrel through and our girl tends to stalk until she's within striking distance on leash and then sprints (she calculates leash length, but I always quietly pull the leash a foot short during the stalking process, I don't want her to kill needlessly). If our girl didn't have such a high exploratory drive we probably would think about training to hunt with her. She's naturally very focused, highly adaptable, unfazed by new things or noises, very strategic, and very tenacious and has been that way since ten weeks old.

    I'm from NYC so absolutely no experience hunting. B has done it as a teenager with his grandfather, but with scent hounds. Their pattern to me, doesn't sound like the norm for western hunting dogs, but is it more common in NK? Do they usually cooperate like that? I also wonder if the pattern is the girl's doing since she's executed some complicated strategies (with other goals) in the past and my boy....not so much. I suspect the boy may just be doing his normal charge ahead thing and my girl doing her normal observe and strategize pattern, thus playing back up.
  • sjp051993sjp051993
    Posts: 1605
    I have seen it with kuma. He hunts very well in conjunction with my Kai. If he and tora are together, you can hang it up. They won't stop till they lose the scent, kill it, or get tired.
    Stacey living with Tora, Kazue, Ritsu and Kuma the Shiba
    www.suteishiikennels.com

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  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2081
    Conker gets competitive more than cooperative. He'll butt the other dog out of the way or start a snarkfest if they get something first. But the other dogs aren't Shibas...
    Anyways, he makes a pretty good squirrel/flushing dog for one with little formal training.
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  • ttddinhttddinh
    Posts: 1990
    Bea was only ever cooperative with Kaiju (shikoku), though most of the time, she hunted by herself. She NEVER let Kilbun (pup) hunt with her.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 2993
    Saya has treed squirrels four times this year.

    Once the snow was bit deep so she was able to catch up to the squirrel and get it. The squirrel was able to get away, but Saya pursued and barked at it while it was in the trees chattering away.

    Saya kept it on the tree for good while I would have had a good shot of it too if I had a gun, but it wasn't squirrel season at that time.

    Saya would listen to me so she wasn't ignoring me just into the game..

    I only have one shiba so no help on this.

    I let her chase after a rabbit in the field it got into the woods and Saya continued to follow, but eventually lost it and returned to me. She got tons of her home made treats for listening.

    I do have her chase the Canadian geese that comes to my pond she helps a lot with keeping them from staying. She leaves the geese alone unless I tell her to chase the geese. She just runs at the geese and they run into the pond then fly off or fly off from land.

    My rule for the dogs is no chasing deer as that's big no no also no neighbor cats or livestock.

    I do work with her to leave it and come when she sees rabbits and stuff so she isn't too uncontrollable.

    She is pretty good at finding animal dens. She's found at least four dens while on our woods off leash walk in winter. One was a coyote or fox one I think from looks of it.

    I always tell her to leave it so she doesn't sniff it for too long.

    Saya striking her squirrel pose. She spotted one while on our short walk.
    photo DSC_0212_zps4c5dcccd.jpg

    Another pic Day it was taken she had chased a squirrel up a different tree, but the squirrel came off the pear tree before she saw it then went after it.

    I took the picture later on as I was taking pics of things in my yard and I noticed her sniffing by the pear tree then she sniffed the tree and looked up for a bit so I got the pic.

    She didn't see the squirrel when it came from the pear tree so she must smelled it and wanted to check in case it came back I dunno.
    photo a-5_zps59339a07.jpg

    I use squirrel pelt as a flirt toy she'll chase it and stuff also if I toss it she'll go fetch it for me or if I go lay it somewhere and tell her get the squirrel she'll go get it and bring it to me. Fetch is her favorite game to play that is for sure.

    photo DSC_0205_zps2dbebed2.jpg

    I have a bag of quail feathers which have the scent on it so I plan make another flirt pole type toy with that.

    I also have a groundhog pelt to tan which I plan to make one as flirt toy and scent training. Saya already knows groundhog scent and she detected it under my shed before I knew it was there.

    I used to do scent stuff with quail, but ran out of quail so I need buy some more.

    Saya is mainly my companion, but I do try satisfy her prey drive with pelts and scents of quail and stuff.

    She's good walking buddy too. Amazing how well she does since she is a shiba.. She'll be exploring the woods area by my yard while I pulled wood and branches out of the woods so it'd be bit nicer to walk in and she'd stay in the area and would come to me when called or come to me on her own.. She is an odd bird.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    Is there any way to get in touch with the owners of those photographs, @shishiinu ? They no longer work.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2336
    I found those on google so I have no idea. I believe those photos were taken in the 80's.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    Thank you. :)
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3419
    This link has some names:

    http://yokohamaatsumi.the-ninja.jp/page005.html
    info@hokkaidoken.org
    www.hokkaidoken.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 503
    @lindsayt, I love this quote -

    In 1994, Mr. Ichihara acquired 50 days old shiba pup. He named this red bitch "Koro". Koro was not an easy pup to train and he could not call her back very well until she was full one year old. On several occasions he had to leave her in the mountain and retrieve her the next day. Otherwise, she had a very good quality to be an excellent hunting dog, easily maneuvering in and out of bushes and streams. By the time Koro was three years of age, she became a wonderful companion for Mr. Ichihara in the mountains of Tanzawa.


    Makes me think my Shiba could have been a good hunting dog. He certainly has the drive for it!
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    I went to the Taber Pheasant Festival here in southern Alberta a couple years ago, where they planted some pheasants and them provided shotguns and equipment for beginners to hunt with mentors. There were a lot of different dogs there to demonstrate as well. Most of them were springer spaniels and some GSPs, but there was one shiba inu!

    The shiba belonged to the wife of an experienced pheasant hunter, and then when she got into it with her husband, she would just bring her dog along. She said they didn't train the shiba much. They also had a very well-trained pointer and they took them out together and the shiba stayed fairly close and flushed naturally, much like a spaniel. She said the shiba was a very good hunter, but not so good with the retrieving. Pretty good, considering they didn't select the dog with any hunting characteristics in mind and didn't train her much either. It was really, really cool.

    I would totally hunt pheasants or other small game with a shiba. I think it'd be really fun.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
    image
  • I think bird hunting with NK is like that- I did *some* training with my Kai, but it was mostly around exposure to the gun. Other training was stuff we did anyway- like recall and exposure to wild birds and habitat and praising them for tracking and scenting and celebrating flushes. They both had at least 2 years of finding and flushing grouse before I decided to capture what they do naturally, buy a shotgun and join them. They wont be like pointers- I agree that they hunt like spaniels, like Heidi said. I wouldn't attempt to overtrain them for it, or train the traditional western bird dog ways (force retrieves, pinching and barrel-standing, plank work), nor would I go out and get a 'better' bird dog to bag more birds- I don't love hunting in that way- but I do love this land, these dogs, and doing something natural together.

    photo Picture 3_zps4y5sotml.png Kai to the Core!
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    My dog (West Siberian Laika) didn't receive any formal training. He has good nerve, so noise-habituation wasn't required like it is with dogs with weak nerves. But for flighty breeds like many gun-dogs, I would still recommend gun-shot conditioning.

    The only thing I used was a whistle and a shotgun; and time. The training manual I used was: http://www.spj.fi/en/online+journal/from+puppy+to+hunting+dog/

    The only thing I did special which other dog-owners don't do is take him for a walk in the woods every day. Secured permission from landowners who have forested lots for the days where I couldn't drive out onto public lands.

    I didn't worry so much about him venturing too far away since he was only 11-12 weeks old and only began exploring his independence which only kicked in at 8 months old.

    So why a whistle? To teach him to head in the same direction I go in. Using voice scares the game. So, any time I turned left, I would whistle and use a hand signal pointing in the same direction of travel; and if I turned right, whistle and a signal indicating. We crisscrossed to teach him the proper way to find game. At some point, the whistle wasn't really required but a mere pointing.

    Of course, as he got older, he gradually started going further and further away. But because I change directions, he learns to check in once every 15 minutes. His typical range, according to GPS, was 50 to 200 meters. Once he went 1 kilometer after a coyote, then intersected a moose after he killed the 'yote.

    There's a few times when he bayed up the wrong animal. So, what I would do is set up camp and build fire and wait him to break and come back. With patience, he stops pursuing junk. This may not be an option for people who can't let their dogs chase livestock or deer; so this is where shock collar becomes valuable-- when the law mandates any dog chasing ungulates or livestock can be shot.

    I don't recommend "disappearing" on your dog like what gun-dog owners do to keep their dogs "sticky"-- unless your goal is to keep them within 50 meters at all time. Someone once found my dog and tied him to a post. Then someone else had the wisdom to untie him and let him lead back to me. After that incident, he became really clingy and took a few months to regain his independence.

    Shotgun came in when it was hunting season and he treed a few grouses. Sneak up, shoot, find another bird, repeat.

    Nowadays, he ranges 100 to 500 meters with hunting experience under his belt.

    He was gun-shy once because of my father deciding to blast bottles for fun, and he ran right into the line of fire expecting to find a carcass. But that quickly went away when we shot another bird for him the week after, then he was no longer gun-shy.

    With older dogs which haven't received off-leash experience since they were puppies, I would recommend a toning collar to keep them in check from wandering too far. Seen a lot of older dogs ranging in excess of 1 kilometer when owners finally decided to "train" them for bird-works.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-09 17:42:49
  • You are not the only one who gets their dogs off leash in the woods every day.
    photo Picture 3_zps4y5sotml.png Kai to the Core!
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    The more I learn about training techniques in different countries, the more similarities I see. Yes, there are different ways of explaining the techniques largely due to the usage of the language and the inadequate translation of explaining those concepts. However, once seen in person, the principles are more or less the same.

    Now I am more of a believer in the idea of cultural disconnect. The lack of hunting has to do more with lack of land access. With no land access, people don't breed for those traits anymore because there is no reason to. There isn't any knowledge lost or anything. Hence why I am a strong advocate of public lands, and against strengthening of trespass laws. If we lose those, then we lose the purpose of the dogs.

    One of the old-time hunters in Finland told me registration of small-game hunting spitzes is declining not because the game is decreasing or the lack of interest in the sport; but rather more and more people are moving to the cities and finding gun-dogs easier to train and easier to live with in apartments. Spitzes are still vastly popular amongst rural hunters, but not so much amongst "city-hunters".

    And the same trend is occurring in North America. As more hunters are living in cities, less people are buying hounds and curs and instead are buying more HPR breeds like Deutsch Drahthaar and Münsterländer.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-09 19:05:14
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2336
    I gotta a disagree with ya a little Dave. The biggest loss in hunter numbers right now, at least in the US and Japan, is due to firearm restrictions and the cost to go hunting. There's still quite a bit of public land around the country although the better hunting is found on private property.

    In California, surveys have shown that the decline in hunter numbers are due to hunting restrictions and license cost. Recently a major lead ammo ban was passed in my state which have affected ammunition sales. There's a lot of public access here but older hunters are giving up or going out of state.

    I have read that in Japan, the average age of hunters there is 65yo or so. Hunting is very expensive and there are major firearms restrictions that make it difficult for people to obtain guns. There's a lot of hunt able land in Japan although it maybe fewer than what we would see here.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    I am willing to concede to those points, but they certainly don't explain why gun-ownership is very high in remote areas in countries with strict gun-laws; or why hunting is very low in areas with high urbanization but laxed gun laws. The decline in hunting is world-wide and there's only one factor with unify all the countries in the world.

    Hunting has become very expensive, especially when the commutes are becoming longer and longer. I know around Edmonton, if one want to find a huntable land for deer, they would have to drive at least two hours mostly because land-owners are not very happy with city-hunters constantly knocking in their doors asking for permission, so the policy nowadays is to say "no" to everyone except friends and relatives; and lots of people are avoiding nearby public lands because they're over-crowded by other hunters. They want that peace and solititude without running into someone else.

    I share that frustration with the local hunting scene at the moment. It wasn't bad 15 years ago when the city only numbered 30 000. But now with 55 000, it seems like every quad and off-road recreational users are out there to ruin my hunts. I would like to see licencing reduce the number of people using those vehicles because my elk shouldn't be spooked 30 meters right in front of me just because someone behind me decided to see what I was doing. I can't count how many time I wanted to throw my stuff on the ground.

    At this point, I am considering just booking time off from work to commute to remote areas rather than going on weekends in my own area. The further away I am from those yahoos, the less likely they will spook my game.

    Private property is no good for me because a lot of the truly wild-game such as grouse, mule deer and caribou are gone from those areas. Only pheasant, white-tailed deer and moose remain on private property.

    On the other hand, pheasant shoots and high-fence hunts are becoming more popular because of that: less commuting. I certainly understand why someone rather spend a few thousands toward an outfitter near their home rather than driving to public lands.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-09 21:07:14
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2336
    I should have worded it more on hunting restrictions instead of firearm restriction in the US. The HSUS has been a major pain in our rear end and because of them hunters have lost opportunities. Our recent hound hunting bill spearheaded by the HSUS literally ended hunting for thousands of Houndsmen. These hunters either had to move out of state, sell their hounds, or retrain their dogs to hunt other game. It's really sad but the anti hunting groups ar working day and night around the globe to shut things down for us.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
    Post edited by shishiinu at 2014-12-09 21:03:02
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    Not familiar with what happened in California; but I do know here in Alberta, hounding ended because the politicians want to keep deer-hunters happy. Yes, anti-hunters contributed to convincing the non-hunters that hounding is inhumane, but it was the deer-hunters who slew the houndsmen by making the stance only still- and stalk-hunting were ethical.

    :/ Hopefully the same thing doesn't happen in British Columbia, because I see more and more so-called "locavore" hunters posting on forums saying they disagree with hounding. Wouldn't be surprised if hounding became banned once the locavore hunters and anti-hunters gang up on the old-timers.

    Not sure how to feel because it's the recent locavore movement which reversed the decline into an increase of hunters. But the other hand, it is also bringing a lot of people who want to debate about ethics to the table.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-09 21:26:22
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2336
    The HSUS doesn't discriminate, they hate all hunting so they haven't teamed up with deer hunters here in the US.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    This article made me laugh:

    http://fairbearhunt.com/media/editorial-real-sportsmen-don’t-need-bait-hounds-or-traps

    Only because Ontario had to legalize hounding a few years ago when the "ethical sportsmen" couldn't cull 10% of the population as required by the government's quota. Then people started complaining about problem-bears.

    I think one study showed stalking harvests only 1% of the population, when most states require 5-10% to keep them under control: http://www.meepi.org/bears/bearreport.pdf

    I would hate to think how our problem-bears would increase if baiting is not allowed here.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-09 21:43:16
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2336
    Yeah spot and stalk alone cannot effectively control bear population. It's definitely evident here in Cali. Since hound hunting closed, the number of problem bears increased by three times and it's only been almost two years.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    I don't wonder.

    Looking at the "case studies" on that website, namely: Oregon, Washington and Colorado; I am under the impression hunting participation is higher in those states than say... California. Same for why Montana doesn't need hounding.

    The only explanation I can think of for places like Maryland and Connecticut is urbanization and fragmentation which would limit bears' carrying capacity anyway. But West Virginia did ban bear-hunting and limited hounding for a long time until the bears came back; and now Plotts are a tradition there.

    But the other states obviously need hounding or baiting for numbers of different reasons.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-09 23:31:48
  • souggysouggy
    Posts: 247
    Anyway, regardless of public land access, we still see how rural people prefer one type of dog while urbanites prefer another type.

    Scandinavia is still mostly privately-owned, but they still see the decline of one hunting group and the rise of another, even though hunters' registrations have not dropped. Urbanization changes the demographic.

    But we don't have the hunting clubs like they do in Scandinavia which collectively pay the rent for the usage of private properties.

    Well, we sort of do in the eastern part of the continent, but the squirrel-dog hunters told me they're being outbid by deer-hunters and pheasant-hunters from the big cities; and those hunters don't want dogs scaring their bucks or interrupting the birds' nesting. The properties they used to hunt 15, 20, 30 years ago are no longer accessible because of stronger trespass laws, and the only squirrel-dog folks left hunting are who own their own property; or they live close to public lands.

    Otherwise, the landless squirrel-dog hunters pretty much gave up because they don't have the financial means to compete with big-game hunters or pheasant hunters in securing leases. When they were children, anyone could hunt across anyone's property. That's no longer the case anymore with posted property-lines.

    I know a few people who ended up buying retrievers because it's easier to join a hunting club centered around pheasants and waterfowls than it is to secure a lease for squirrel-hunting.

    But even then, I notice a big difference between urban hunters and rural hunters. The rural ones have more beagles, more curs, more hounds. The urban ones tend to have more gun-dogs. The former tend to have properties or live close to areas where they don't have to commute; the latter group pays for access and fill their time with classes and workshops.

    One of my co-workers on Vancouver Island told me how much he pays to join a hunting club for exclusive rights to ducks, and how much they have to contribute per year to stock pheasants. It was mind-blowing. But he's a programmer with lots of money.

    At least he only have to drive half an hour from his house. I know a Karelian Bear Dog person from the same area who have to travel at least 2 hours to be able to find an area to let the dog loose on bears because all the property-owners are either neo-hippies, live-off-the-land type or they're asking for monetary exchange. Not sure why that person choose to live in the city though. It would be a lot easier if she lives in Port Alberni or some other town famous for hounding.

    Ironically, the old-timers told me that access didn't use to be so difficult when they were younger. No one asked for compensation, nor did the real estate industry snapped up all of land surrounding the city. So if one want to hunt, it's either to pay or travel further. In some cases, it's the latter because the the real estate turned all of that hunting land into residential areas. What used to be a ten minute bike ride turned into an hour drive.
    Blog: Prick-Eared - now featuring primitive dogs
    Post edited by souggy at 2014-12-10 05:16:16

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