Retained teeth in Nihon Ken
I'm curious to know what sort of dentition issues breeders are bumping into with the other NK? Are wry bites, over bites, narrow bases, missing teeth and retained teeth issues seen in the others with any frequency?
Without pointing fingers at breeders since things like this are a reality of working with rare breeds and people have been working for decades to improve it having only a handful of dogs to use, do you think this is the result of a gene that can be bred out, or the result of physical size limits. I know jaw width and structure are obviously inherited, but does anybody know if there are certain genes that cause retained puppy teeth, or does it mostly have to do with the inherited skull and mandible shape? I know smaller breeds in general, the Shiba included, have a much greater chance of retaining puppy teeth from what I thought of as simple lack of space. Has anybody seen bite issues and retained teeth in their larger NK?
Do you feel it is bad breeding practice to breed an exceptional outstanding dog of merit who had some retained teeth as a puppy that were easily removed by hand without surgery? Would it be different if the dog did require anesthetic to safely pull some deciduous teeth because it was too wiggly? Would you run for the hills if your breeder said there *may* be a chance of retained puppy teeth?
I agree that dogs with wry bites, under/over bites and missing teeth should be excluded from breeding in favor of the many dogs with correct bite if available, but I'm not sure where a retained puppy tooth falls in the grand scheme of reputable breeding practice. I am inclinded to accept this in an outstanding dog, as long as surgical intervention like braces are not required, especially in breeds with naturally smaller mouths like the Shiba.
I also tend to think that breeding for a super refined look inevitably results in shorter muzzles, and therefore less room for teeth to erupt. I'm curious if any of you Shikoku and Kai owners/breeders have seen retained teeth in your dogs given that these breeds are not as refined as Shibas and what have you had to do for it? What are your thoughts? Thanks!
Without pointing fingers at breeders since things like this are a reality of working with rare breeds and people have been working for decades to improve it having only a handful of dogs to use, do you think this is the result of a gene that can be bred out, or the result of physical size limits. I know jaw width and structure are obviously inherited, but does anybody know if there are certain genes that cause retained puppy teeth, or does it mostly have to do with the inherited skull and mandible shape? I know smaller breeds in general, the Shiba included, have a much greater chance of retaining puppy teeth from what I thought of as simple lack of space. Has anybody seen bite issues and retained teeth in their larger NK?
Do you feel it is bad breeding practice to breed an exceptional outstanding dog of merit who had some retained teeth as a puppy that were easily removed by hand without surgery? Would it be different if the dog did require anesthetic to safely pull some deciduous teeth because it was too wiggly? Would you run for the hills if your breeder said there *may* be a chance of retained puppy teeth?
I agree that dogs with wry bites, under/over bites and missing teeth should be excluded from breeding in favor of the many dogs with correct bite if available, but I'm not sure where a retained puppy tooth falls in the grand scheme of reputable breeding practice. I am inclinded to accept this in an outstanding dog, as long as surgical intervention like braces are not required, especially in breeds with naturally smaller mouths like the Shiba.
I also tend to think that breeding for a super refined look inevitably results in shorter muzzles, and therefore less room for teeth to erupt. I'm curious if any of you Shikoku and Kai owners/breeders have seen retained teeth in your dogs given that these breeds are not as refined as Shibas and what have you had to do for it? What are your thoughts? Thanks!
Comments
In Tetsu's case, I feel that that is something hereditary as his puppy tooth was obviously growing wrong. But with Tikaani's case, I feel that it was more environmental (not enough to chew on). Most of Tetsu's teeth came out when rough housing with Tikaani (same thing is happening with the girl, Tikaani's neck is covered in her mouth blood), but Tikaani didn't have the same kind of intensive rough play since he was playing with a smaller dog instead of vice versa.
Even though Tikaani isn't NK, I figure my experience with his teeth are still kind of relevant since he's approximately the same size and build to the medium sized NK. I think that there is always a chance for retained puppy teeth, and that it is more of a case by case basis as the whether it affects the dogs breeding status.
Ahi had a retained tooth which had to be removed. Other pups we have imported have had what we thought were retained teeth but eventually the baby tooth was pushed out and so there was no need of extraction.
We have not had any under/over shots or missing teeth. I was told by Shigs that missing teeth is a common issue in some of the NK lines in Japan tho.
IMHO, for breeding (in our breeding program), I think imports should be allowed some wiggle room. I might breed an import with some issue that I do not like simply because that import is an out-cross. So, if an import we brought in had retained teeth, that import would need to have other issues to push us to cull him/her. I probably wouldn't cull an import for something like a retained tooth.
However, that rule doesn't apply to dogs that are produced from my program. Meaning, if we produce a dog with retained teeth from "our lines", that dog would be culled. Dogs produced from "our lines" (which I consider to be 2 generation from the imports) will be held at a higher standard than an import when being selected as a breeding prospect.
Having written all that, I think the final decision would come down to the individual dog and his pedigree. If the dog had retained puppy teeth and was just a mediocre pick for breeding, and was not an out cross, then I would cull him. On the other hand, if he had some quality I wanted (like a great temperament or "A stamp" hips), but also had retained baby teeth, then I might consider breeding him to a dog w/o the issue.
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@TheWalrus, I think you are right to say that bite issues are more commonly observed in Shibas. I'm glad you check bite on the parents too!