Karelian Bear Dog
So, my friend recently got a KBD. She is 7 mos. She is super agile and a little mouthy. I had to laugh when she was following my friend from the living room to the kitchen and she decided to climb over the couch instead of walking around it. She was super cute at bed time - just goes straight to her kennel and curls up. I am excited to see how she matures.
Comments
Pictures!!!!!!
Dave, I will. I always feel bad taking pics of a dog when I first meet them, so I will catch her on round two. The owner is a good friend, so I am sure I will have some more opportunities.
I texted him about her breeders this evening, and he said she just knocked the couch over. She's a decent sized girl. He also said she gets bored easily and seems to do best outside where she has room. She follows everyone around the house. Doesn't seem to be a big chewer or anything though.
I was super excited when he got her because she could be a good possibility for a future playmate for my future nihon ken. Most of my other friends have smaller dogs (like pugs and such). You never know though - the dogs could have a very different opinion!
Many of the KBD breeders I have talked to have described their dogs as same sex aggressive - but you know I don't subscribe to that concept so I provide that info to you at face value.
I prefer the REL because, from my research, I have learned that they are a more social breed when compared to the KBD, and that is something that I find important. Perhaps its from the Russians mixing in the other Laika breeds that helped create a more social dog. I dunno.
I have nothing against the KBD tho, I still really like the breed (a lot) it's just that I talked to 8 (or so) US KBD breeders over the course of a year (back before we got the Ovcharka), and I was so turned off by the breeders' responses to my questions... And their (excluding Renee Van Camp) general lack of dog behavior understanding (lots of alpha/dominance crap) that I just gave up on the breed entirely.
I have a real hard time purchasing a dog from a breeder who lacks an open mind, a deep intellectual connection with their breed (or dogs in general), and a drive to expand their knowledge-base.
Tho I am not in a rush to own one, if someone knows of a KBD breeder who meets my above mentioned criteria, in the US or abroad, I'd certainly be interested in connecting with them.
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I have read and heard that RELs are more aggressive too, but most of the breeders I spoke with said their dogs did fine living in a group but were reactive to dogs outside their "pack". After raising a litter of 9 COs I dunno that how much littermates pick on each other is a real reflection of how they will be as adults. Our last CO litter were pretty nasty to each other but all grew up to be pretty tolerant with other dogs. This current litter, on the other hand, is pretty chill with each other.
The KBD breeders I talked to made it sound like their dogs *might* do ok in a male/female pair but couldn't "exist" with any other dogs. Us having other males just made them right us off as "irresponsible". To quote one of the KBD breeds from an old email...
"I know you are at home as well as your wife, but Karelians know Karelians, and will not exist with other dogs."
I doubt that statement is true, but, in regards to their breeding stock, I think it's pretty telling.
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I can see why a KBD/REL maybe more suitable with dogs similar in characteristics, but to say that they won't exist with other dog breeds is cuckoo.
You are probably right about the litter thing. I thought is was interesting how much they growled and picked on each other.
We eventually decided that we would rather them learn those social behaviors with their littermates and Masha around than to separate them and send them to a new home having not learned those things (like bite inhibition, etc).
I kept calling Stacey in a panic, and showing her videos of them, or letting her hear it over the phone and her response was always: "That's nothing, I've seen a lot worse." lol
There was a learning curve for us for sure.
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I have too many horses too and too many cats ;-)
"Animal hoarding involves keeping higher than usual numbers of animals as pets without having the ability to properly house or care for them, while at the same time denying this inability. Compulsive hoarding can be characterized as a symptom of mental disorder rather than deliberate cruelty towards animals. Hoarders are deeply attached to their pets and find it extremely difficult to let the pets go. They typically cannot comprehend that they are harming their pets by failing to provide them with proper care."
"An animal hoarder is distinguished from a person who keeps an unusually large number of pets, but who cares for them properly. A hoarder is distinguished from an animal breeder, who would have a large number of animals as the central component of his or her business..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_hoarding
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Kadmos, are you trying to stir things up? Or perhaps you're not a native speaker of English and things come out sounding different than you mean? Because that comment about animal hoarding sounded accusatory.
Tuula exhibits some of this dog-sharpness. She is definitely wary of new dogs, despite good socialization. She loves new people, but takes a while to warm up to new dogs. I think a more proactive approach on my part would mitigate this, but even so, I think she would trend toward dog-sharpness. She tends to be the instigator of our dogs. She takes things from the others and is just sort of bratty. Last week, I watched her hide Darcy's bone under the couch and then sit back and watch as Darcy frantically searched for the bone. This was just hilarious.
As for dogs recognizing their own breed, that's idiotic. Uneducated elitists say things like "Karelians know Karelians and will not exist with other dogs."
Brad, I can't imagine the sound of the COs "killing" each other. Tuula and Darcy make some of the most awful noises when they tear around the house and yard fighting. Even when they're properly exercised, those two just love to fight. Watching them reminds me of the old cartoons where two guys roll around in a cloud of dust and occasionally you see a boot or a fist or some stars come out of the cloud. Come to think of it, that's kind of how my brother and I must have looked growing up.
I think I read something like "Karelians do well with dogs they are raised with, but may be reactive to new dogs".
Brad - My friend mentioned the breeder having some interesting opinions. The pup is sweet and seems sound though, so that is good!
I read the KBD/REL American mix story as well. Does anyone know if this is true for all N. American breeders? Or just some of them? And how can you tell if they are "pure" or a KBD/REL mix?
http://www.universalkennel.com/List_of_Recognized_Breeds.htm#Kangal Dog.
North American breeders with pure breed Karelians or RELS will register their dogs with the FCI, Canadian Kennel Club, United Kennel Club and for Karelians, they will have registration and records from the Finnish Kennel Club. These clubs recognize KBD/REL as two separate breeds. I believe the price for the mixes is lower as well, (except for California Karelians probably). You can get foundation stock from the AKC for pure KBDs.
For hunting/alarm/bear deterrent purposes you can't go wrong. Both are exceptional and mixing them "might" make the dog healthier.
Because the RELs were originally mixed with other Russian Laika, they seem/can have less of a standard look, more leggy, more white all over the body and thinner or short or much longer coat, bigger or taller ears, longer snout, less stocky body, etc. The differences are usaully subtle.
Here are pure KBDs websites in North America.
http://www.simplesite.com/runningbeardog
http://www.grawpawsbeardogs.com/
http://carelianbeardogs.com/KarelianBearDogs-Recognition.html
And these guys have mixed dogs.
http://www.karelianbeardog.us/
http://www.mountainviewkarelians.com/
http://www.jackknifemountainkarelians.com/
The Wind River Bear Institution has mixed pups cause they have done a lot of rescuing, but I believe they brought in some pure KBDs from Finland in the past year or so.
http://www.beardogs.org/
They also have their two separate North American Clubs.
http://web.mac.com/ourcoons/iWeb/aKBDba/Home.html
http://www.kbdcoa.com/
There are more mixed breeders in America then purebreed breeders.