Solid Black Kai?
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5510
    OOC, are there any solid-black kai? [ as in, NO brindling whatsoever, not just a "light brindle" ]

    I know with Dutchies & Mals, if it's Brindle [ even a slight brindle ] it's Dutch, if it's Fawn / Sable it's Mali, & If it's Solid Black it's a Black Mali...

    Just curious if Kai tend to produce puppies with no brindle whatsoever. [ I know sometimes there's brindling, & It's just hard to see or only appears in certain lighting, but I'm strictly talking about a solid black kai ]

    I know there are cream kai, so I'm wondering if solid black kai are ever produced.

    [ I guess this is more of a gene thing than anything else tho? ]


    Likewise, there are Cream Shibas, Shikoku, Kishu, Hokkaido, & Akita...are there any solid blacks that show up in these breeds tho too? ~
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    Posts: 4055
    hmmmm good question. I don't think so, but I met one that had a red undertone that was so difficult to see.

    There is a big difference between Koda's brindle and Maymay's. Hers is less defined and has more big stripes. I found a guy in Taiwan online who has a Kai with her same coloring. His comes from hunting lines. I'm sure that makes no difference at all. But his dog and Maymay seem to have similar personality traits. Moreso than Koda and Maymay.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 3430
    There are black hokkas, very rare but they do exist.
    -Rina
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1558
    Yes, you will get solid black Kai. Breeding Kai with little brindle over successive generations will eventually produce Kai with no visible brindle.

    I'm sure Ayk or someone with knowledge of genetics can explain whether it's a genuine black, or whether the brindle is just so dark that it's not visible. Truth is they're out there.

    Just like white/cream, it's a fault, and they are disqualified in the ring. However since brindle in Kai can show up as they get older, it's permitted to show solid black in the puppy/juvenile classes.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5510
    Thanks guys!

    It was just sort of a mild curiosity. We talk about brindle kai [ aka-tora, chu-tora, etc. ] & cream kai, but I've never heard mention of solid black kai so it sparked my curiosity ;)

    Didn't know there was black Hokka, I wonder if the "solid black" shows up in any of the other NK. ~
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    Here's my current theory about the Kai's coat colar genetics. I added on a few more items since the Mai Tai and Kaito thread.


    ================================================================

    With regards to brindle genetics in dogs, it's known that there are 3 alleles on the K loci that controls dominant solid black, brindle, and normal. The priority goes this way:

    K > Kbr > ky

    K = dominant solid black
    Kbr = less dominant brindle stripes
    ky = recessive normal color (no black added)

    There is some unknown modifier that makes the brindle stripes appear differently from breed to breed though. Thin, defined stripes vs. wide, blurry stripes for instance.


    In the Kai, there's most definately the Kbr gene in the breed. I'll bet that they have the K gene in the breed. I'll venture that there may be ky in the breed but rarely found homozygously.

    These are my newest guesses on the genetype/phenotypes in the Kai :

    K K = solid black
    K ky = solid black
    K Kbr = mostly black with slight brindle
    Kbr Kbr = more even distribution of brindle
    Kbr ky = red brindles

    ky ky = red with no stripes (Assumed to be possible, no pics yet)


    Example of a possible K K or K ky:
    image


    Examples of a possible K Kbr:
    image
    image


    Examples of a possible Kbr Kbr:
    image
    image


    Example of a possible Kbr ky:
    image
    image
    image
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    BTW, there now exist DNA tests to determine if a dog is carrying dominant black (K), brindle (Kbr), or no added black(ky). If one was really dying of curiosity to know if their black Kai was carrying a really weak brindle or no brindle, they can look into doing a DNA test. It's an easy enough thing to correct through selective breeding though. One generation should do it.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    This is a Kai, could this be an example of ky ky?

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    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2010-05-08 20:28:33
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    Posts: 4055
    Very very interesting. Roberta told me that Marian pretty much had this all figured out as far as genetics and family history and how to throw red brindles in litters.

    Brad, did you ever pick Marian's brain on this?
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    No, I never had a conversation with her about it, and I don't see any Akatoras being produced in NA anymore either. :oT

    ----
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 3430
    They're so pretty though :(
    -Rina
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    Brad,

    If the red dog has black whiskers or black hairs, then yes, that would be an example of ky ky. (Technically Ay ? , ky ky.) The same as a red Shiba.

    If the dog has red whiskers, then the dog is like a very dark cream. Similar to Irish Setters, Golden Retrievers. The genetics behind this would involve the E loci, not the K loci.


    Are akatoras completely gone from NA? I remember not too long ago, Marian had produced this pup.
    image

    I searched for the original post and this pup was produced in 2007 out of DAIICHI AKA TORA and EN NO INOCHI. Brad, have you seen Daiichi in person? Does he have black whiskers?
    Post edited by ayk at 2010-05-08 22:11:50
  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 590
    Daiichi is kohji's dad, I met him at a dog show and if iirc, he does have black whiskers! His mom was Suki No Inochi who looked solid black from the pic on Marian's website. Suki's pic isn't up on her site anymore tho
    Kohji - Kai Ken
    Taj - Shiba Inu
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    Yes, I met Daiichi, I have no idea about the whiskers - so I'll yield to Kelly on that.

    Daiichi is Kona's grand sire, too.

    I think the red Kai above, who is Mochi's grandmother, has black whiskers.

    As for Akatora in the US, if any are still being produced since 2007 then I have not seen them. I could be wrong, but I know for sure that they are not easy to come by.

    I think the line-breeding the kennels have been forced to do, due to the lack of new bloodlines, has pretty much killed the chances for vary many Akatoras to be produced - that's just my guess tho.

    ----
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12220
    I dunno if it is interesting to you, but I have Kona's ped online: http://kai.yamabushikennel.org/males.html
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    I wish I could see pictures of the dogs in Kona's pedigree. Looking at Kohji, I'm thinking that there must be some potent modifiers, making black lines very thick, in order to explain how Suki could come off as appearing solid black but obviously still carrying brindle to pass onto Kohji. Wonder if my theory needs to swap K for Kbr+modifier.


    Daiichi is still a mystery to me. It's not typical for a red dog (Ay ?, ky ky) dog to start off as nearly cream as a pup and darken to such.

    imageimage

    There are some other light red dogs on Marian's webpage. Hiko looks similar to Daiichi but Sam looks more like a cream with his light nose?
    Post edited by ayk at 2010-05-09 21:23:30
  • MirkaMMirkaM
    Posts: 1248
    @ayk So is Kais "true" colour sable?
    Kai will lay down its life to protect its master.
    photo banneri_zpsc6e1d74e.jpg
    Kennel Gekkoo No: http://gekkoonoen.webs.com/index.htm
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    Brad produced one pup that was a black-masked, yellow pup.
  • there's another Nazo in a litter in Japan last year, too.
  • cdenneycdenney
    Posts: 961
    I want to see nazo as an adultß
    image
    image
  • MirkaMMirkaM
    Posts: 1248
    If I understood this right all Kais are Ay (dominant yellow aka sable) and then they also have dominant brindle gene Kbr. So in fact there isn't solid black Kais (because they all have Ay), their brindle pattern is just so thick? And Nazo is, genetically speaking, sable and don't have Kbr gene. Jeeez, I now understand why we only speak black, brown and red :D.
    Kai will lay down its life to protect its master.
    photo banneri_zpsc6e1d74e.jpg
    Kennel Gekkoo No: http://gekkoonoen.webs.com/index.htm
  • NavyDogNavyDog
    Posts: 388
    So then is Nazo ky ky? If so wouldnt breeding him to a dog that is K Kbr have the chance of producing the brindleless black Kai (K ky)? That is of course if ayk is correct. Side question: does anyone know if Nazo is going to remain intact?
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    I've been told by the boxer-corgi geneticist that kbr gene is a blend of Kb and ky. Explains why some brindles in some breeds tests out as Kb.

    There was an article somewhere how brindle Japanese Akitas actually have the dominant black gene.

    Methinks that their kbr just has more Kb attributes than other breeds.

    Methinks something similar could be going on with the solid black Kai. But AFAIK, no one has done a coat color DNA test on any Kai to confirm or not.

    Just to make things more complicated, I'll throw out there that I have a dark brindle Jindo pup out of a red dog and a red brindle dog. My friend tell me that in mouse show lines, the difference between dark "sooty brindle" and "clear brindle" is whether the mouse has any additional darkening genes such as grey. I have sable-grey on the dad dog's side and the mother dog tests as Ayaw.
    Post edited by ayk at 2015-01-26 09:22:50
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    Forgot to answer the direct question. Yes, Nazo is kyky.
  • I see a lot of similarities in the way white markings and brindle are passed on to offspring. When you breed two JAs with white socks or neck markings together, the offspring tend to have more white than the parents. When you breed two medium-striped brindle JAs together, the brindle offspring tend to have heavier black stripes than the parents. White begets more white, and brindle begets more brindle.

    King Ghidora (medium-heavy red brindle) x Bijo (red) had red brindle pups that were heavy, medium-heavy, and medium black stripes. One darker than the father, two about the same, and two lighter.

    King Ghidora x Karin (medium-heavy silver brindle) had red brindle pups that were all heavy black stripes. One silver brindle pup also heavy stripes. All darker than the parents.

    Since the Akita black/brindle study was brought up, my dogs that I have tested for K Locus came back as Kbr not Kb. King Ghidora and Karin are both Kbr,ky. Mosura (not yet bred) is Kbr,Kbr.

    ETA: There was a stillborn red male in the litter from King Ghidora x Bijo, which confirms that he carries ky and the DNA test was right.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2015-01-26 15:54:30
  • Onyx Flowers Crop1

    I am no expert. I don't know the lineage of my dog, however I would like to share that she had the most soft, beautiful all-black coat I've seen, without any noticeable brindle. I guess I fell in love with her, not because of her beautiful appearance, but because of her independent attitude but positive, adaptable demeanor, and ability to become a great companion. We were best friends; because of her good behavior we went everywhere together.
    I know she was a unique individual, however I would like to open my home to another canine friend with similar attributes. I find this discussion interesting because I got Onyx from a rescue so I did not believe she was a purebred, therefore I thought her solid black color to be an unusual trait from a mix of breeds. Then I saw this interesting thread. How to find another dog with features like hers? Any suggestions?
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2015-08-10 12:08:59
  • Sorry, the photo in in the link still does not appear in the post, however it appears when you "click" on the photo. At least when I click on it. It shows as "public" in the Flickr account. I'm not sure what's wrong at this point. Argh. My apologies.
    But clearly, she looks like the photo posted long ago by Sangmort, I think.
    Ultimately, I my goal is to find another young black Kai with a positive disposition like Onyx's when one comes up. If a good dog in another color comes up, I would love her for her own personality ;)
    Post edited by Friend_of_Onyx at 2015-08-11 18:59:15
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3974


    image

    I am no expert. I don't know the lineage of my dog, however I would like to share that she had the most soft, beautiful all-black coat I've seen, without any noticeable brindle. I guess I fell in love with her, not because of her beautiful appearance, but because of her independent attitude but positive, adaptable demeanor, and ability to become a great companion. We were best friends; because of her good behavior we went everywhere together.
    I know she was a unique individual, however I would like to open my home to another canine friend with similar attributes. I find this discussion interesting because I got Onyx from a rescue so I did not believe she was a purebred, therefore I thought her solid black color to be an unusual trait from a mix of breeds. Then I saw this interesting thread. How to find another dog with features like hers? Any suggestions?


    image
    Post edited by Calia at 2015-08-11 20:33:14

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