Training the Dogs to Beware Snakes
One of the major activities we'll be doing with our future pups is hiking.
Down here in Central Florida, we have a lot of venomous snake species. I've encountered corals, rattlers, & water moccasins / cottonmouths. We also have a ton of non-venomous species [ garters, corns, kings, & racers ], all that I've regularly encountered on hikes.
Now being a huuugeee snake fan, I usually know where to look & to make sure no one steps on any of these guys that might be basking on the trails. Likewise, all the snakes do a pretty good job of getting out of the way long before you get to them.
But...I'm still pretty nervous about one of the pups getting bit by a poisonous species! & on trails that span 13 - 20 miles, with 30 minute drive to the closest vet...it makes me all the more nervous.
That said...is there any way to train a dog to beware of snakes?
We do have our very own snake at home, Tiamat, who could help with training them to stay away...just not sure how'd I'd go about doing this while keeping Tiamat safe.
Would Tiamat in a clear-enclosure work? Or would the dog just learn to stay away from the enclosure?
How about a "toy snake" left in Tiamat's tank for a while to collect the scent?
Any ideas / suggestions would be great. I know there are also classes that teach "rattlesnake awareness" for dogs, but not sure how to go about finding one...plus, there are too many snakes other than rattlers that are more / just as much a threat. ~
Down here in Central Florida, we have a lot of venomous snake species. I've encountered corals, rattlers, & water moccasins / cottonmouths. We also have a ton of non-venomous species [ garters, corns, kings, & racers ], all that I've regularly encountered on hikes.
Now being a huuugeee snake fan, I usually know where to look & to make sure no one steps on any of these guys that might be basking on the trails. Likewise, all the snakes do a pretty good job of getting out of the way long before you get to them.
But...I'm still pretty nervous about one of the pups getting bit by a poisonous species! & on trails that span 13 - 20 miles, with 30 minute drive to the closest vet...it makes me all the more nervous.
That said...is there any way to train a dog to beware of snakes?
We do have our very own snake at home, Tiamat, who could help with training them to stay away...just not sure how'd I'd go about doing this while keeping Tiamat safe.
Would Tiamat in a clear-enclosure work? Or would the dog just learn to stay away from the enclosure?
How about a "toy snake" left in Tiamat's tank for a while to collect the scent?
Any ideas / suggestions would be great. I know there are also classes that teach "rattlesnake awareness" for dogs, but not sure how to go about finding one...plus, there are too many snakes other than rattlers that are more / just as much a threat. ~
Comments
Over there with the different types of snakes and larger numbers, I'd be a bit worried. Just running a search (as I'm sure you did), all the training seems to be done with E-collars. I'm not a big fan of them, but am not adverse to using them if absolutely necessary. This is one situation where I think the E collar and a proper trainer would work.
You might want to contact some local search and rescue dog groups and see where they go to get anti-snake training. Some bird-hunting gundog groups may also have some referrals. Sometimes pet stores and vet offices may have flyers as well when snake season starts up.
Here are some things to beware of though. In southern CA, there are several types of Rattlesnake Avoidance Clinics for dogs and some are rather loony. I'm most familiar to how Patrick Callaghan, the originator of rattlesnake clinics, had operated his before he died from a heart attack last year. His wife posted some things to ask of trainers on their old website:
http://www.patrickcallaghan.com/schedule.htm
(PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS)
I caught a nice size rattler and put it in the frige. Once the snake got sluggish I put a small mesh net over its face and secured it so it would not come off. Take the snake out in a grassy area and attach a training collar to the dog. You basically stimulate the collar every time the dog goes near the snake. Some dogs take just one hit and thats it but Hana took 3 hits to actually get the point. There are specificts on the distance of the dog to the snake and stimulation levels to take in consideration but I dont want some one to try it and get bit so I will leave it at that.
Usually during the months from May to November, there are tons of these nasty critters where I hunt so I need to make sure that the dogs dont get too curious.
In socal I think the best place is High On Kennel with Tracey. She trains bird dogs in North east San Diego and only charge $60 so its a decently priced clinic.
I'm really not keen on using an e-collar to train them [ & I agree, I would either bring a professional to the house to train with or go to one of the classes ] BUT...I think this might be a case, as Shigeru stated, where I'll have to cave into using this method.
I'd rather have the dogs learn to stay away from snakes with an e-collar, then get bit & possibly die while out when hiking.
Honestly, if we only had 1 type of venomous snake, I really wouldn't worry too much. But there are faarrrr too many all over [ even just in the backyard ], & that makes me nervous.
How do I know? I've caught most of them LOL [ I usually catch them & release them away from the populated areas ]
---
I've tried searching for such places to take the dogs to...but can't seem to find any in Orlando!!! I keep getting "articles" & clinics in other states. Looks like I'm going to have to ask around
Thanks guys!
& if you could think of any ways to do this without an ecollar...that'd be awesome too. ~
There do exist trainers who believe that they can teach snake avoidance via positive only methods that involves higher level thinking. Sort of similar to how guide dogs will refuse to cross if there are cars around. I just don't believe in that it'll be very successful for higher prey driven dogs. I can be proven wrong though if you want to try. :-)
[BTW, I probably mangled the behaviorial terminologies in this post, but I hope evreybody can still get the gist of it.]
""No! no! no!" reaction from the dog even if it means disobeying you."
over this:
""Osy is leading me towards the snake that I can smell but she can't see. She must still know what she's doing so I'll follow her."
As good as I am at seeing them ahead of time, I'll trust a dog's nose over my instincts any time!
---
I just don't like the use of e-collars in general. *sigh* ~
Good luck on finding your training place for this.
That said, as much as I hate these collars, I suppose this might be a case when it would be the lesser of two evils.....my dogs catch snakes quite often, and luckily, they have never been poisonous, but I could see how it could happen.
My vet lost one of her fox terriers to a rattlesnake bite....Bit the dog in the mouth...
This is my thought process exactly. ~
But the Shibas? I do think their "success" in killing snakes before might encourage them to go after it anyway. So it does worry me.
But it's one of the things I just hope doesn't happen, I guess. Our encounters with snakes have not been so often that I feel I need to train them in avoidance, though perhaps I'm being overly-optimistic here.
There are two trials. The first is with a intact rattler (still has his rattles) and the second trial is with a snake with his rattles removed. We were told that a rattlesnake has a very distinctive smell, unlike other snakes, and that is the reason for the rattles being removed. They rest the dog for about 5-10minutes between trials. We took Tenji back the next year and we were pleased to see that he had remembered everything and did not get anywhere near the snakes. Since his initial training Tenji has found four rattlesnakes and has warned me of their presence. We have a date to take Fuji next weekend and are hoping for her to learn as quickly as Tenji. When we take our daily walks with the dogs we are on trails that we share with lots of wildlife. Tenji will stay on the trail but Fuji is interested in going off exploring. Next weekend can't come quick enough. Both dogs have received their first rattlesnake vaccines and are due for the second, and final, shots next Monday. Just can't be too careful. The vet told me that she gets two rattlesnake bites every week beginning in late May. We live in Ramona, CA.
Or at least that is what I read.
-Taping the rattles usually muffles it enough.
-Approaching downwind of the snake so that the scent is carried over to the dog without alarming the snake.
-Selecting snakes that appear less aggressive/less alarmist than others. (Yes, some snakes just are grouchier than others and have a lower threshold.)
-Wetting the area around the snake to strengthen the scent.
-Using 'ode de snake' to increase the smell of the snake.
Luckily, once I got a good look at the snake, I realized it was not a rattler, and the rattling sound was this hog-nosed snake hissing like crazy and trying to make itself look dangerous. (and maybe they can be--they can bite of course--but at least are not as bad as a rattlesnake). I have a little fenced in herb garden quite near, so I picked up the snake with the broom handle (it cooperated thankfully) and put it in there to try to figure out what to do next. I had to keep blocking the snake from coming out of the garden because I knew Toby would be right after it again. Finally, I was able to tempt Toby in the house with some turkey sausage, and in that time the snake made it's get away (I actually think it lives near that garden, because Toby kept sniffing at some rocks very near there and backing away and barking, though there was not other snake there, but perhaps it smells of snake).
It scared the hell out me, and of course, could have been very very bad if it had been a rattle snake instead of a fairly docile if large and scary snake.
I don't know though. I'm worried about the whole idea of using e-collar, but obviously there are a lot of snakes around here, and I couldn't bear to lose him to a rattlesnake bite.
ugh.
In the meantime, I'm still shaky from all of this!
I'm glad Toby is safe & sound
Hog-nosed snakes are OK not dangerous or anything usually they'll try to appear as they are a rattle snake to scare predators away or play dead and emit a foul smelling smell..
Hog-nosed snakes eat mainly frogs, mice and things like that I believe also they are venomous forgot the type, but their fangs are way in the back so it can't hurt people or dogs I don't think I know it's OK to keep them as pets in some areas.
I have two corn snakes used to be three but he died he was 13 or 15 years old. The corns would rattle their tails while they are eating and I put their tank top back on. They are pretty docile never bitten me when I handle them they rattle when I clean up after them or take their water dish out.
Hog snakes are neat little guys only snakes in my area are rat snakes and garter I haven't seen any other kinds yet.
Oh and did I mention that snakes taste like the best chicken, yes I as much as I love to see snakes I love eating them (rattlesnakes). I was in a survival class once and during the 3 days in the woods with nothing to eat, I caught rattle snakes for food.
Snakes are cool....and this one did let me pick it up with the broom handle and move it to safety! But I am worried that if the dogs continue to kill snakes (and they usually get 1-2 a year) they will be more likely to attack a rattle snake....and get bit! I'm glad this one got away, and I hope it doesn't come back when the dogs are out! all that said, we've had so many problems with wood rats, that I certainly don't want to chase away another predator--I just don't want my dogs to kill it either.
RE: hognosed snakes being venomous, here is an odd link: http://www.herpnet.net/bite/
Fascinating, but I guess you have to be really enthusiastic about snakes to let one bite you so you can document the effects online
I love reptiles when I lived in Louisiana we had cotton mouths in the area in the canal which was by my backyard. We also had alligator snapping turtles I've only found the baby ones which was pretty snappy for young also a alligator got washed into the canal after a bad storm it was young enough so they were able to relocate it.
Up here in Indiana I've only found box turtles, red ear turtle, skinks, newt, many types of toads and frogs, garter snakes, and rat snakes we also have a common snapping turtle too man when I poked at it's back it jumped at me. lol
I was a little tomboy catching anole, turtles and snakes as a kid..
Sorry to go off topic like this. =)
I found these posts about it from a forum: http://bbs.sitstay.com/showflat.php?Cat=1,2,3,4,9&Board=outdoor&Number=250396&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=2&vc=1
and further down on this forum, someone posted their experiences: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/farmlife/msg081549035733.html
and am going to look for others. I'm interested in hearing how well it works.
I really might need to consider this for my Shibas, esp. the male. I NEVER again want to deal with the kind of months of bad health he had from necrotic tissue after a dog fight--it worries me that a dog that is so clearly interested in hunting snakes could get bit. I live very close (5 mins away) from my regular vet, but they are often out of town, and I'm 30 mins away from the emergency vet....
I asked my vet about the people who do the "snake proofing" here, and she said one place here doesn't even do the e-collars, but just shows dogs a snake (I wasn't even sure if it was a live snake) and yells at them. that would certainly NOT work for my dogs. I'd still prefer not to do anything with e-collars, but I also really want to keep my dogs alive, so I've got to think about that, and to think about the rattlesnake vaccine too.
If anyone has heard anything about the vaccine, I'd be interested in hearing it.
There are way more details (and some arguments against the training, of course) in this thread on the Shiba side: http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/11660/rattlesnakes-in-california#Item_28
But I will say this, it was well handled, and both dogs and snakes were handled humanely (snakes were muzzled), and the timing was excellent as far as I could see. I won't know if it worked unless Leo sees a snake, but he got the point in the class.
And....he approached the juvenile snake immediately, and put his face right down there. He got three shocks "from" that snake, and after that, he avoided the snake. He had one shock because he did not avoid the snake skin, but after that, he would not go near the shed snake skin, the hidden snake (for sound), and when he saw the adult, he was done, and wouldn't go near it. He was a little nervous afterwards (no surprise there) and stuck close to the handler at first and then me, but within 20 minutes (the time it took us to get home) he was back to his happy self. It looked like the shock part was not too much either--he jumped back from the snake, but didn't whine or cry, or even jump up in the air like I've seen on some videos. It looked to me like he very clearly thought the snake was the thing doing this, and he kept his eyes on the scary thing (the snake) but distanced himself from it.
I liked that the handlers were knowledgeable and humane and did not recommend the use of the e-collars in any circumstances except for this (though one guy was a hunter and used them with his hunting dogs in training recall). They also were careful about the appropriate setting for the size of dog, and asked about the dog's temperament, etc.
And they thought Leo was a Jindo mix! They were very interested in his actual breed, and both had heard of Kai Ken but never met one.
So, while I don't know for sure if it worked, I went in a little anxious about it, honestly, but willing to do it, because last year Leo was bit by a rattler in our garage, and it was super scary, and I was afraid (apparently quite correctly) that he would approach another snake again. So I decided I would try this. I feel pretty good about this company, and would recommend them if anyone is looking for a company to go with. (Again, no guarantees on how it will work, but what they did yesterday looked good).
Oh, and it was $65. The whole thing took about 10 minutes.