Victoria Stilwell or Cesar Millan: Who would you call?
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5510
    Thought I'd post this for those who haven't seen it on FB yet.

    Cesar is winning :(

    http://www.helium.com/debates/192868-victoria-stilwell-or-cesar-millan-who-would-you-call/side_by_side ~
  • RedAutumnRedAutumn
    Posts: 53
    Haha awesome :D I'd have never thought of comparing the two before. Interesting. Pretty close call so far considering the number of voters.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • Stillwell is winning now considerably.
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    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    As of right now, Stilwell is winning

    Stilwell
    59% 774 votes
    Millan
    41% 547 votes

    Total: 1321 votes
    image
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 2215
    The gap got even bigger.
    Stillwell: 61%
    Milan: 39%

    Jesse
    Jesse Pelayo

    Post edited by CrimsonO2 at 2010-04-29 14:31:05
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    This is so stupid. Who would you choose to train your dog? A dog trainer or a dog groomer? ... What a hard choice. *rolls eyes*

    I'm happy to see Stilwell is ahead now.

    ----
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    Posts: 4055
    I see the forum must have been voting there.....
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5510
    haha I knew we could put her ahead :p

    ---
    Last night she was losing by 100. ~
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • Most of the pit bull groups I belong to emailed me this last night. The word is out.
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    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5510
    Awesome!

    I refuse to let Millan win! ~
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1671
    Interesting there are so many varying notions for each. I found this rather inaccurate in regard to Cesar...."Victoria Stilwell is a well respected dog trainer while Cesar Millan is considered a dog behaviorist".

    To my knowledge he is not an officially recognized or certified behaviorist by ABS, unless something has changed and he has gone to undergrad or graduate school while doing the show.

    Snf
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    Oh, no, he's not a behaviorist - he's a "dog physiologist". LOL
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5510
    Wrong Brad.

    He's a "dog psychic." He'll read your dog's mind. :p ~
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    Hey Osy, don't insult the dog psychics, they don't sound haft as crazy as CM.
    image
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5510
    LOL

    You're right. I'd be more inclined to call the psychics then Cesar. ~
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • sailfloesailfloe
    Posts: 46
    Well, to be fair, it says that he's "considered" to be... which unfortunately does seem to be more true than I would like.
    Brian, dad to Violet & Bear (Shibas)
    Post edited by sailfloe at 2010-04-30 00:03:45
  • KevinKevin
    Posts: 346
    I don't mean to piss on anyone's shoes, but how many of you can walk twenty dogs at once and have them all behave? I don't give a damn what Cesar's credentials are; his results are good. Maybe you aren't a huge fan of his methods, and that's fine. I disagree with him on various points and get kind of annoyed by some of the fluff on his show. But I certainly believe he's accurate when he says we give our dogs way too much affection and not nearly enough exercise. To be honest, when I read some of the dog pseudo-psychology on this forum, I want to laugh at a few of the members.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • TeamLaikaTeamLaika
    Posts: 302
    As a funny aside, Terrierman has put some "Old School Dog Trainer" shirts on CafePress...bearing a quote on the back from Hostilius Saserna in 49 B.C.! Check it out for a chuckle. "Whoever wishes to be followed by a dog...should throw him a cooked frog!" Click. Treat.

    http://www.cafepress.com/OldSchoolDog.442407016#
    Post edited by TeamLaika at 2010-04-30 03:27:02
  • renaerenae
    Posts: 174
    Well I guess I'm the only one to vote for Cesar. Not saying that Victoria is bad or anything. She's a good dog trainer and I like watching her show, and sometimes use some of her techniques, but Cesar's methods make a lot more sense to me. I love how he uses many different training methods to solve the problem but it still revolves with his philosophy: exercise, discipline and affection & animal, dog, breed and name. I also agree with Kevin on about Cesar not having a degree or a certificate. He knows what he is doing. Everything starts some where and there is no degree in the beginning. I know there are places to get educated in dog behavior and training but some things you can't learn from school, but by living and experience in the real world. Something he did.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • So glad to see Millan isn't winning...As for him being able to walk all those dogs....so what? Anyone who chokes dogs until they collapse is not a trainer or a behavioralist, but simply an asshole, and an abusive one at that. And yes, I've seen two shows where he chokes a dog into submission with a training collar.

    It's all I can do not to scream when someone suggests I need Cesar Millan when I'm discussing behavior issues with my dogs.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2010-04-30 03:14:05
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    Kevin,

    Based on what happened to Jonbee the Jindo mix, I would say Cesar's results are actually very poor. Jonbee, if you might recall, appeared in one of the early episodes of season 2 and was probably the first of the sensationalist episodes whereby the producers filmed Cesar go head to head against "red zone" dogs. Putting aside criticisms of Cesar's methodology, I'll point out that his "good result" did not last to a happily ever after ending for the dog. After the television owners said on tape that they would keep him, they still ended up with problems and gave the dog up to Second Chance at Love Rescue. Last I checked the website, the dog is still looking for a home despite his celebrity status and his "rehabilitation."
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    personally I can't call anyone that misuses training tools (even those tools I don't like) anywhere near being recognized as an official dog trainer/behaviorist. Though I am not an advocate for choke chains, there is a right way to use them and a wrong way, Cesar often times uses them the wrong way. Choke chains are only to be used as a quick jerk, pressure for no more than a second. Never ever should a choke chain be tightened for an extended length of time, as this sort of misuse can lead to major health issues or even death. There are quite a few aversive training centers near me that would consider CM a bad advocate, as he's showing aversives as "looking worse than it really is".
    image
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    With choke chains, I've noticed that the initial correction may require the quick jerk with pressure, but then after, it's possible to ease off so that just the sound of the chain slipping will cause the dog to change its behavior. The sound becomes the marker or attention-getter, not the physical connection.

    Cesar doesn't use the choke chain as a marker but as a restraint.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 590
    Regarding Ceasar, for you believers out there, punishment doesn't decrease anxiety or fear. It doesn't TEACH a dog anything, except to stop the behavior you do not want happening at that very moment. Positive reinforcement and TEACHING a dog a new learned behavior would be the appropriate way to work with your dogs behavioral issues. Not to mention whenever you hit, choke, flip your dog over, or whatever he chooses to do with his particular victim, it's making the dog NOT TRUST YOU ANYMORE. The bond you and your dog have and the fact that he trusts you is extremely important when you want your dog to do the things you ask of him. Not to mention, Caesar gets bit constantly. Dog BEHAVIORISTS know enough about canine communication to stop whatever they are doing before escalating a dog's patterns of communication up a ladder to the "bite". If you use violence with your dog, he will learn to become violent too.
    Kohji - Kai Ken
    Taj - Shiba Inu
    Post edited by kwyld at 2010-04-30 07:23:29
  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 590
    "To be honest, when I read some of the dog pseudo-psychology on this forum, I want to laugh at a few of the members."

    Kevin we have been reading and using information from Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorists for years. They are veterinarians, scientists, who do documented studies on animal behavior. Before making a comment like that, just take some time and read information that is available to you and really take it in and analyze it before rejecting it and using methods that seem like the easier and quicker fix. And btw, they appear this way because they are EDITED to look this way on TV. There's also nothing wrong with giving your dog "too much affection" (unless it's trying to hug and kiss and smother a sleeping Kai), that's what they are there for, to be your companion, your hunting buddy, your hiking buddy. They are your friend, and they want you to treat them the way they treat you.

    http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=77&Itemid=353
    http://www.dacvb.org/

    Check out these links, really read them, read some books they recommend, then tell me Ceaser's "quick fixes" still make sense to you.
    Kohji - Kai Ken
    Taj - Shiba Inu
    Post edited by kwyld at 2010-04-30 07:24:34
  • It saddens me deeply that there are still so many people that cannot seem to differentiate between intimidation/abuse and actual training.

    I have seen Mr. Millan's methods ruin dogs. We have a trainer here where I live who calls himself RI's Dog Whisperer. He follows Cesars methods to the letter. He has donated his services to a number of shelters here. I have watched him drag terrified dogs from their kennels, and alpha roll dogs. For the record, EVERY SINGLE DOG he has "helped" was put down with the shelters stating that they were far worse now than before this man came to them.
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    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    "To be honest, when I read some of the dog pseudo-psychology on this forum, I want to laugh at a few of the members."

    >> If this is true (and perhaps others feel this way too) I hope it is me that you are laughing at as I have a pretty thick skin. We are all just trying to do the best we can for our dogs and our situation, no need to laugh at any of us.

    ----
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2010-04-30 15:28:19
  • sailfloesailfloe
    Posts: 46
    I'm sure I've posted this before, but it seems appropriate to link here:

    A study from Penn Vet that shows that aversive techniques lead to bad behavior. (The full version, likely requires library/university access is at Applied Animal Behaviour Science, Volume 117, Issues 1-2, February 2009, Pages 47-54). Some of the criticism leveled at Stillwell and others seems to boil down to labeling them as hippy pseudo-psychologists, so I'd point out that this comes from highly respected vets / researchers at one of the better Veterinary Schools in the country. (Granted, I'm a Penn alum, so likely biased).

    Abstract:

    Prior to seeking the counsel of a veterinary behaviorist many dog owners have attempted behavior modification techniques suggested by a variety of sources. Recommendations often include aversive training techniques which may provoke fearful or defensively aggressive behavior. The purpose of this study was to assess the behavioral effects and safety risks of techniques used historically by owners of dogs with behavior problems.
    A 30-item survey of previous interventions was included in a behavioral questionnaire distributed to all dog owners making appointments at a referral behavior service over a 1-year period. For each intervention applied, owners were asked to indicate whether there was a positive, negative, or lack of effect on the dog's behavior, and whether aggressive behavior was seen in association with the method used. Owners were also asked to indicate the source of each recommendation. One-hundred-and-forty surveys were completed. The most frequently listed recommendation sources were “self” and “trainers”. Several confrontational methods such as “hit or kick dog for undesirable behavior” (43%), “growl at dog” (41%), “physically force the release of an item from a dog's mouth” (39%), “alpha roll” (31%), “stare at or stare [dog] down” (30%), “dominance down” (29%), and “grab dog by jowls and shake” (26%) elicited an aggressive response from at least a quarter of the dogs on which they were attempted. Dogs presenting for aggression to familiar people were more likely to respond aggressively to the confrontational techniques “alpha roll” and yelling “no” compared to dogs with other presenting complaints (P < 0.001). In conclusion, confrontational methods applied by dog owners before their pets were presented for a behavior consultation were associated with aggressive responses in many cases. It is thus important for primary care veterinarians to advise owners about risks associated with such training methods and provide guidance and resources for safe management of behavior problems.

    Conclusion:

    In conclusion, confrontational or aversive behavioral interventions applied by dog owners before their pets were presented for a behavior consultation were associated with aggressive responses in many cases. Owners of dogs aggressive to family members are especially at risk for injury—and their pets at risk of relinquishment or euthanasia—when certain aversive methods are used. Ultimately, reward-based training is less stressful or painful for the dog, and, hence, safer for the owner. It is important for primary care veterinarians to advise owners about risks associated with aversive training methods, despite their prevalence in the popular media, and to provide resources for safe and effective management of behavior problems.
    Brian, dad to Violet & Bear (Shibas)
    Post edited by sailfloe at 2010-04-30 16:03:24
  • Here is the intro and discussion...I thought they were interesting reads...Applied Animal Behaviour Science Volume 117, Issues 1-2, February 2009, Pages 47-54

    1. Introduction
    Dog owners presenting their pets to veterinarians for behavior problems have often attempted a variety of training methods prior to their visit. Because many owners do not initially seek advice from veterinarians with regard to their pets’ behavior problems (Lord et al., 2008 L.K. Lord, L. Reider, M.E. Herron and K. Graszak, Assessment of health and behavior for animals one week and one month post adoption from three shelters in the metropolitan Detroit area, J. Am. Vet. Med. Assoc. 233 (11) (2008), pp. 1715–1722. Full Text via CrossRef | View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (1)Lord et al., 2008), they are likely to have relied on “lay” resources for information and advice on behavior modification techniques. Many interventions involve confrontational, ‘positive punishment’ i.e., punishment using an aversive stimulus, such as pain, to decrease unwanted behavior, which can be threatening and fear-provoking in animals, sometimes leading to defensively aggressive behavior and putting owners who use them at risk of injury ([Mertens, 2002] and [Mills, 2002]). Owner safety is, thus, an important consideration in the management of canine behavior problems.

    Previous studies have evaluated dogs’ responses to different obedience training methods. In one report, dogs that were trained using rewards (‘positive reinforcement’) for desirable behavior had a significantly better response to obedience tasks compared to dogs trained primarily with punishment (Hiby et al., 2004). Another found that dogs that were trained using only positive reinforcement were less likely to develop future behavior problems, while others that had been trained using punishment were more likely to develop fear-related responses (Blackwell et al., 2007). While these studies have compared the effectiveness of and stress response resulting from different training techniques, no study has evaluated owner safety in using such methods or reported the recommending source.

    The purpose of this study was to describe the frequency of use, the recommending source, and the owner-reported effect on canine behavior of interventions that owners of dogs with undesired behaviors had used on their dogs. This study also aimed to report aggressive responses from the dogs subsequent to the use of aversive and non-aversive interventions.

    4. Discussion

    Owners attempted a variety of behavioral interventions, many of which elicited an aggressive response, with their dogs prior to their appointment with a referral Behavior Service. As we expected, the highest frequency of aggression occurred in response to aversive interventions, whether direct or indirect. In contrast, reward-based training elicited aggression in very few dogs, regardless of presenting complaint.

    Although dogs who are historically aggressive to familiar people might respond aggressively to any intervention, whether or not aversive, owners of such dogs in our study were at greater risk of injury when attempting the “alpha roll” and “yelling no”. The aggressive response to the “alpha roll” was not surprising as dogs will roll onto their backs as a means of threat avoidance or social appeasement, and may progress to defensive aggression if the threat persists, as it would when an owner continues to manipulate the dog (Shepherd, 2002). Such interactions present a substantial risk for owners who seek advice regarding the management of aggressive behavior; punishment may increase fear and arousal, particularly in an already-defensive dog, and perhaps teach the dog to bite without warning (Landsberg et al., 2003). Studies have shown that most dog bites to humans are inflicted by familiar dogs as opposed to stray dogs, making it even more crucial for owners to properly handle their own pets ([Berzon and DeHoff, 1974] and [Moss and Wright, 1987]).

    The use of such confrontational and punitive training methods has been presented and popularized in books, on the internet, and on television ([Ross and McKinney, 1996], [Monks of New Skete, 2002], Millan et al., 2004 Millan, C., Emery, S.P., Sumner, K.B., 2004. MPH Entertainment (Firm), Screen Media Films (Firm). Dog Whisperer with Cesar Milan: The Complete First Season.[Millan et al., 2004], [Millan and Peltier, 2007] and [Millan, 2008]). Their common use may have grown from the premise that canine misbehavior or aggression is rooted in social dominance (to the owner), or, conversely, to a lack of assertiveness or dominance by the owner. Advocates of such theories suggest that owners need to establish themselves as the “alpha” or “pack leader”, using physical manipulations and intimidation in order to do so, thereby forcing the dog into a subordinate attitude.

    While the use of confrontational training methods to subdue hypothetical dominance is commonplace, the current scientific literature suggests, instead, that canine aggression and other behavior problems are not a result of dominant behavior or lack of the owner's “alpha” status, but rather a result of fear (self-defense) or underlying anxiety problems, important for an understanding of the motivation and treatment of aggression ([Guy et al., 2001a], [Guy et al., 2001b], [Mertens, 2002] and [Luescher and Reisner, 2008]). Techniques such as forcing a dog down by the collar or by pushing on its neck and back—as, for example, in the “dominance down”—are associated with increased physiological stress (Beerda et al., 1998). Frightened animals are often self-defensively aggressive; it would not be unexpected, then, that dogs respond aggressively to such provocative handling.

    The use of electric collars is controversial ([Polsky, 1994] and [Cheetam, 2003]). Shock collars were used infrequently in our study; however, use of shock might have contributed, indirectly, to aggression in other contexts. For example, dogs in one study that were shocked inconsistently and those who were shocked as a result of incorrect obedience response were at higher risk for increased stress than were dogs shocked for approaching a specific, easily identifiable and avoidable object (Schalke et al., 2007). In another study, dogs who were shocked via remote control for obedience training showed an elevated stress response which persisted in the presence of the owner even outside the context of training (Schilder and van der Borg, 2004). These studies suggest that using remotely activated shock is likely to increase stress and fear of owners, and may put dogs at risk for compromised welfare and defensive aggression.

    Sources of recommendations for the interventions evaluated in this study were varied. Owners listed “self” or “trainers” as the most frequent sources for all but three interventions (Table 2). Assuming that the average pet owner lacks training in behavior modification and management of aggression, it may, therefore, be dangerous for them to be handling such problems without professional help. It was not surprising to find that trainers were the source for many recommendations. As reported in a recent survey, owners of dogs with behavior problems are likely to consult trainers rather than veterinarians (Lord et al., 2008). This lack of veterinary intervention is problematic as the lack of standardized oversight of many training programs has resulted in a range of competence and ethical practice of behavior modification and owners may be at risk of receiving unsafe advice.

    The recommendation made most by veterinarians was use of a muzzle, which may be attributable to the fact that most of the dogs in this population presented for aggression, and most veterinarians will muzzle biting dogs for safety during an examination. We did not differentiate or specify how the muzzle was used; in-clinic muzzling may have led to over-reporting of its use, as veterinarians may not have specifically recommended a muzzle for training outside the veterinary clinic.

    Television was the most frequently reported source for the “schhhtt” sound correction and abruptly “jabbing the dog in the neck”, both of which have been demonstrated on a popular dog training program (Millan et al., 2004). Because respondents were not asked to provide the names of specific television sources, it was assumed by the authors that owners listing television as the source for the two training techniques were referring to this popular show, although only one owner cited it specifically. Both techniques are potentially provocative and, therefore, may trigger defensive aggression.

    Owners felt that most of the listed interventions had a positive or lack of effect on their dogs’ behavior. It was not specified in the survey, however, whether the effect referred to the dog's reaction to intervention, or to the behavior problem itself. Contrary to expectations, not all owners reporting an aggressive response to a particular intervention felt that the training method had a “negative” effect on their dog's behavior. For example, “hitting or kicking” led to the highest frequency of aggression for owners who attempted it (43%), yet only 35% of owners reported a negative effect.

    Because of the risk of heightened fear of the owner as a result of their use, leash corrections are not typically recommended by positive-reinforcement-based trainers and behaviorists (Mills, 2002). However, in our study, 63% of owners who used leash corrections felt they had a positive effect. It is possible that the correction temporarily inhibited reactive or other undesirable behaviors, thus appearing that the behavior had improved and that the technique had had a positive effect. While it may be effective as a momentary interruption, correction or punishment alone does not selectively reinforce desirable behavior and is an inefficient way to train an animal to perform a specific behavior (Mills, 2002). In addition, owners may not have recognized non-aggressive fearful responses to the correction and may have felt the technique was, indeed, helpful in that particular context.

    There were several limitations in our study. First, the dog owners surveyed were recruited from a population of owners making appointments at a referral behavior clinic; in many cases, the behavior problems were significant. The frequency of aggressive responses and effectiveness of training methods might have been different if we had sampled a general population of dog owners. Next, the survey did not request a temporal description of these interventions and many of them may have been applied well before the presenting behavior problems occurred. It is, therefore, difficult for us to determine whether owners attempted specific interventions to alter aggressive behavior or whether aggression developed as a result of their use. It is also possible that owners misinterpreted the meaning of the “effect” section of the survey. The terms “positive”, “negative”, and “no effect” are subjective, and judging a technique's effectiveness based on theses options may not be accurate. Next, owners’ self-reporting may have led to recall bias and/or poor answer reliability. For example, each owner may have remembered the outcomes of various treatment techniques differently and some owners may have felt reluctant to admit to a veterinary professional that they used physically aversive methods on their dogs. Finally, the retrospective nature of the survey prevented the possibility for direct comparison of safety and efficacy between aversive and non-aversive techniques. It would, however, be unethical to put dog owners at risk for injury for a randomized, prospective comparison between the two categories. This study is the first of its kind to investigate several commonly used behavioral interventions and the potential for aggression as a result of their use. A larger scale study with a more general population of dogs would be the next step towards evaluating the effects of the various behavioral modification techniques and their associated risks.
    Post edited by the_november_rain at 2010-04-30 16:29:37
  • akitariseakitarise
    Posts: 180
    lol i couldnt resist :p
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • lol!!
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 3663
    From JessicaRabbit: "It saddens me deeply that there are still so many people that cannot seem to differentiate between intimidation/abuse and actual training.

    I have seen Mr. Millan's methods ruin dogs. We have a trainer here where I live who calls himself RI's Dog Whisperer. He follows Cesars methods to the letter. He has donated his services to a number of shelters here. I have watched him drag terrified dogs from their kennels, and alpha roll dogs. For the record, EVERY SINGLE DOG he has "helped" was put down with the shelters stating that they were far worse now than before this man came to them."

    This! Thanks! It makes me sad too, and angry (obviously, or I wouldn't have reacted in the way I did) because I think dogs get hurt by these people.

    Thanks too for those who posted the article...

    One of the more horrific Millan episodes, that I probably actually found through this forum, is the one where where he hangs a dog from the choke collar....I remember even the fairly traditional (ie. somewhat aversive) training I took my GSD to 9 years ago thought that this was so bad they would not allow it.

    I've talked elsewhere about how bad aversive training can be, but it might be worth saying again. I really am ashamed of some of my early dog "training" though I know at the time I didn't know any better, and neither dog had any lasting harm (though they could have!). First, when I was young and had an AA, a nervous girl who actually looked more like a JA than an AA but was from a backyard breeder. I'd been told to punish dogs as a method of housetraining, so I did it. It didn't take too long til she began to pee in fear as soon as we came home. Of course she did! She'd been punished for accidents. It took her a couple of years to get over her fear peeing. It makes me sad to think I made a nervous dog even worse with stupid training methods that I'd been taught (in this case, not by a trainer but simply through "conventional wisdom" that wasn't wise at all).

    But the example more relevent to this conversation is that I trained my GSD through somewhat Millan-like methods. This was way before Millan, but the trainer I saw did the usual things--training collar (which is not always bad I know, and this trainer did explain how to use it correctly), emphasis on always being "dominant" over your dog, alpha rolls, etc. When my GSD, who is a very soft dog as it turned out, did not do what I asked him to do, I was told he was being stubborn/dominant and I should use the alpha roll on him. I did. A lot. Now I realize he was simply very anxious, and certain parts of agility (esp. the tunnel) scared him. I'm appalled that I forced my dog to do something was supposed to be "fun." He got so he simply did not want to go to class, and he became very anxious anytime we started "training." Of course he did, poor dog. The thing is, he is a soft dog, and somewhat anxious, but not terribly fearful....I could see, however, that my behavior could have made him very timid. Or aggressive. Because a couple of times, when he was anxious and whining and refusing to perform the task didn't work, he'd grab my hand in his mouth. Not hard. And he'd look at me. And I listened to people that told me he was being "aggressive" and "dominant" when in fact I realize now he was trying as best he could to tell me that something was wrong and he was simply afraid. My male Shiba? He's not that patient or handler-oriented: he would have bit, hard, if I tried to force him to do something like that.

    I'm lucky that i had dogs that overcame my mistakes. I'm lucky that I learned how to listen to my dogs better, and learned how to motivate them rather than force them to do things. And frankly, I think it is a lot harder to try to listen to them and understand them and then learn what best works in terms of training, then it is to try to force them into things. I suppose that's why some aversive training methods are still popular. Or maybe it's just a desire to dominate in some people. Either way, I have no doubts that it hurts dogs, and there is plenty of evidence to bear that out.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • ala-chanala-chan
    Posts: 93
    Well.. To be honest I did think postive about Cesar Millan until just a few minutes ago, because I had not seen the "important" videos...
    Via Youtube I had seen some short clips about him making a dog trapped in cage "surrendering", by just staying with the cage, two videos about "claiming your space" (one was about a little dog barking furiously at the door and one about an Aussie jumping at his handler) and a video about a dog being aggressive when people went into his territory - Millan just stayed by him.
    These are "techniques" I considered (and still consider) good and helpful and so I thought of him being a good trainer. (I use the "claim your space"-method as well to prevent Etsu from greeting "my" visitors before me.)
    And THEN I took a look at the videos about Jonbee and Emilie the pitbull and I was like... Oh... My... God... How could I have ever thought, that this was a "good trainer"? A trainer at all? What he did in those videos was breaking the dogs by force!
    Jonbee was NOT a totally aggressive dog! In the garden they could do all there ridiculous "alpha-roll-games" without any problems, the dog just became aggressive in the house... Well... A dog that has only been kept in the yard becomes aggressive when being forced to roll over inside a house - an area it is not really used to- , so it has to be forced to do so... Spot the mistake... What about just giving the dog some time, helping it to relax inside the house and NOT doing stupid alpha-roll-games with it?
    And Emilie... Right... A dog that doesn't have leaders, but servants its whole life and didn't make contact to other dogs starts to get aggressive about other dogs... Where I come from this behaviour is called "protecting your pack"... If they had just put up some rules and tried to be good dog-leaders, the dog would have started to trust in their leadership and wouldn't have considered "protecting the pack" its task. One would still have had to try to somehow socialise the dog with other dogs, but the walks would have become quite easy. But NO, Millan has to smash the dog on its side everytime it tries to fullfill "its task" and then take it away from its owners to "rehabilitate" it...
    The problem ALWAYS is at the other side of the leash, but Millan seems to not like this.
    Of course it is easier to just force the dog into "surrendering" than to help the people how to gain the dogs trust and respect...
    That is sooooo poor.
    My opinion of the "dog-wisperer" has totally turned around. What he does is not "dog-whispering", but "dog-crashing".

    Etsu and I had some problems with ressource-aggressions when he was about 9 or 10 months old and I had no other option then to make absoluteley clear, that I do not tolerate him claiming ressources and "protecting" them from other people by biting. (He never did that to me, because my position was clear, but to friends and visitors.) Whenever he did that, I took him in the neck and put him outside for a few minutes. That happened three times and that were the only situations I ever had to use force on him. I NEVER did alpha-rolls or ridiculous stuff like that, my male can sleep in my bed (under my blanket sometimes), on my sofa, he can walk out of doors in front of me or eat at the same time with me, but he absoluteley respects my leadership and trusts me.
    Trust is - in my opinion - the most important factor in a human-dog-relationship and the only basis for lasting results. Breaking a dog with force may stop the behaviour, but it does not reach its source.

    So, Cesar Millan gets a big NOT!
    (I want to add that I think that a GOOD dog trainer does not need any devices other than body language, treats and toys to make a dog do what he wants him to do. Except for REALLY bad cases maybe.)


    Edit: What I found most horrific about the videos was when he brought Emilie, the pit-bull, to his own dogs, went inside the kennel and forced the dog to let all the other dogs come by and make contact. That is pure animal abuse. Every human and every animal has a certain area around itself (in German this is called "Individualdistanz" - individual distance?) where it does only accept dogs it likes, because it does not feel comfortable with dogs it doesnt like being so close. Violating the dogs natural desire of having its personal space like that is absolutely... I don't know.
    It is something about respect of a dogs wishes and personality, that Millan proves not to have. It is as if dogs were just machines and if you pushed the buttons they would "work right". This is... I can't find words for it.
    Post edited by ala-chan at 2010-05-01 09:36:17
  • MyloMylo
    Posts: 552
    As soon as I read this thread title I thought "Oh Osy, you know that's going to get heated." lol.

    Kevin, I'm sorry if people have offended you, but in all honesty, you kind of bated them with "...when I read some of the dog pseudo-psychology on this forum, I want to laugh at a few of the members." You seem to have been a member for a little while, but I don't think you fully understand the people here. The Nihon Ken Forum is about mutual respect. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but as soon as you chirp members (either specifically or generally), be prepared to get it back ten-fold.

    As for the Cesar Salad vs. Queen Victoria debate, I think people have voiced some very valid opinions posted above. I don't really have much to add, except to re-enforce the importance of TRUST.

    My Shiba, Mylo, is a rescue from NYCSR. He is very dog reactive (i.e. if approached by another dog, he will REACT as though that dog has already hurt him). He has the mentality that "If I get you first, you can't hurt me". I have worked with him over the past 2 years to gain trust in me and my commands. He knows that as long as I am with him, I will protect him. Granted, he will still react to an off-leash (don't even get me started on off-leash rants) dog who approaches him, but I give him a break. He's had this mentality for the last 9 years, and I'm not about to change that completely. If my dog becomes unhappy by something, I'm not going to force him to do it. I'm going to appreciate that he is uncomfortable, and work around it. We don't go to dog parks and there is NEVER ever another dog allowed in my home, whether Mylo is home or not.

    When I first got Mylo, he would get extremely anxious and pull on the leash and show body language that showed his terror whenever there was another dog in close (across the street) proximity. Now, when we walk by other dogs a simple "leave it" in a pleasant voice will turn his attention straight forward and his body language remains confident. I didn't get this result from shoving him in a room full of other dogs and "shocking" the fear out of him. I gave him TRUST. I've let him know time after time that I will keep him safe. How? By associating seeing another dog with something wonderful like treats or ATTENTION. That's right. I give my dog positive attention when other dogs are around. There's nothing wrong with that. It has created the amazing bond we have today. Some might think that given two years, any person could create a bond with a dog, but that's not true. My boyfriend has lived with Mylo and I for as long as I've had him. My boyfriend plays with and feeds Mylo as often as I do. But sure enough, whenever Mylo gets anxious when we have a few too many people in the apartment than he is comfortable with, he comes to me. He trusts me to keep him safe and calm.

    In conclusion: Suck it Milan. Your "techniques" would have absolutely ruined my dog and our relationship would have been based on fear, rather than trust. I love knowing that my rescue dog has an owner that he trusts and loves, rather than fears and obeys. Can Cesar fans say that? No. No they can't.

    One final thing to mention, that I always think to myself when comparing training techniques: "If this were a person, how would they react to this method?" Just think about that, and the debate between Victoria Stilwell and Cesar Millan is done.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • MyloMylo
    Posts: 552
    LOL "I don't really have much to add". Sorry... apparently I had quite a bit to add.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5510
    "As soon as I read this thread title I thought "Oh Osy, you know that's going to get heated." lol."

    Actually, I didn't think we had any Cesar fans on here at all LOL ~
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3016
    Hello I watch Cesar Millans shows from time to time I also watch it's me or the dog shows every time I get the chance if it's a new episode or one I haven't read.

    My opinion on both people while Cesar Millan's methods look great, quick, and easy to me if I did this to Saya and Bella they'd both be horrible dogs to be with and they'd be afraid of me.

    I used positive reinforcement to train my dogs and guess what! Bella is my first boxer who actually heels and loose leash walks! There are times she still pulls like a deer up ahead, scent of rabbits, and birds, but she's getting better with each walk.

    My past dogs were trained by my dad in more adverse methods the usual choke collar and jerking and pulling the dog back if it pulled saying again my dad did this. The training with my past two boxers were by positive methods siting for treats, comes gets special treats etc. Sadly I didn't know much on dog training when I was young.

    My past two boxers were horrible I loved them dearly, but they pulled like a monster was chasing us and they got into fights over the smallest of things.

    My dad worked as a K9Army trainer way back when he was 20 or so years old and he did adverse methods, but my one year of reading the internet and taking Bella to an positive reinforcement training class has done more wonders to Bella than CM methods would ever do.

    Bella doesn't listen to my dad only to me and my mom I'm guessing since we are the only ones who feed, walk and work on training her I can get her to lay down no problem even without a treat and my dad he says down and if she doesn't go down he forces her into a down which worries me because he might hurt her back or legs I dunno, but it looks like unnecessary force.

    From my experiences with Bella and Saya I believe positive reinforcement is the way to go with things I'd never thought I'd have a boxer who would walk on a loose leash and is heeling and getting better by the month!

    Saya has a bit of a fear of kids, but slowly she is making much improvements check out Saya's page I got a picture up of her being petted by Molly she used to run away from her, but now after working with her she now walks right up to Molly and licks her and is happy to see her.

    She now sees kids as a good thing she gets special treats when in the presence of kids and if I find a well behaved kid around I have him/her lightly toss her treats. I think if I used CM methods by forcing her to kids when she is not ready she would be a nervous wreck, but at least now I can walk by kids and she'll look at them excited and waging her tail not tail down and ears down.

    I didn't like the Jonbe episode and the one episode where he was horrible to this husky I cried watching that episode.. =(

    I guess I'm weak hearted, but hey look where dad's methods got him he lost my trust the day he threw his dinner plate at me claiming that I fed Bella table scraps at the table.
    Adverse methods just don't work not for me and not for my dog.

    After that I still don't like him or trust him heck with the way he treats Bella and Dink sometimes I always put Saya in her crate unless my mom is home to watch her one time he tried to Sht and poke her in the neck for nipping when she was a puppy. I don't want Saya to get hurt emotionally by him trying to alpha roll or anything like that.
    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
    Post edited by Saya at 2010-05-02 21:55:06
  • renaerenae
    Posts: 174
    "Actually, I didn't think we had any Cesar fans on here at all LOL ~"

    I think I'm the only Cesar fan on here.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • KevinKevin
    Posts: 346
    You know what? I should have just kept my mouth shut. I respectfully disagree with several of the above assessments, but I ought to know better than to get carried away. Sorry, guys.
    I'm still learning. I'll try to be more learnable. I guess my exposure to dog psychology has been primarily through Cesar, and because I'm more interested in learning about how a dog thinks than in getting it to do stupid tricks, I tend to gravitate to him.
    I must remember, also, that my experience with dogs has been with relatively 'hard' dogs--not hard to train, but hard in the sense that Brad has mentioned--you can throw them around and they bounce back for more.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • JessicaRabbitJessicaRabbit
    Posts: 4749
    If you are really interested in HOW a dog thinks or WHY a dog does something than I would strongly encourage you to read any one of the following authors
    Jean Donaldson
    Patricia McConnell
    Ian Dunbar
    Pat Miller
    Turid Rugaas

    All of these are actual behaviorists. Cesar is pure flash. His methods are based purely on intimidation and force, not actual psychology.

    Having spent my life working with damaged and abused dogs, his methods would have gotten me killed. The above authors methods not only kept me safe but saved a lot of dogs.
    Fuzzy Gang Signature
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • no problem Kevin, you should always be able to voice your opinion. and what Jessica said, lol! Books like Culture Clash, The Other End of the Leash, For the Love of the Dog, etc. They are great reads worth your time.
    Post edited by the_november_rain at 2010-05-04 02:42:28
  • RedAutumnRedAutumn
    Posts: 53
    "One final thing to mention, that I always think to myself when comparing training techniques: "If this were a person, how would they react to this method?" " This is great :D that's what I usually think about when it comes to my family's animals.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • akitariseakitarise
    Posts: 180
    I think I'm the only Cesar fan on here.- nah Ur not ..I like Cesar as well and voted for him too. its a damn shame that Daddy passed away. I liked that pit bull so much..
    Post edited by akitarise at 2010-05-04 10:23:26
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1613
    I found Cesar's show interesting at first. So much so that after watching a few I ordered his book (my wife bought the first season on DVD too). I've seen some interesting bits and pieces, but realized after a few of the harsher episodes that this wasn't going to work, with my dogs anyway. It would most likely break my dogs. I haven't yet gotten around to reading any of Victoria's stuff, guess I should.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • KevinKevin
    Posts: 346
    If this were a person, how would they react to this method?
    That's my issue. Dogs aren't people. I think some of the behavioral issues we see in dogs stem from the fact that we treat them like people or expect them to reason like people.
    Daddy died? That's sad. He was a sweet dog, and I don't even like pits.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • JessicaRabbitJessicaRabbit
    Posts: 4749
    Careful what you say about pits.

    I have dedicated my life to rescuing them.....
    Fuzzy Gang Signature
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • KevinKevin
    Posts: 346
    Ha! As a rule, they are not my breed of choice. My girlfriend has a little pit mix--about 5 months old--that she rescued from a shelter. She's ornery, but is the sweetest little pup I've ever met. She's goofy looking, too. Probably because she's mixed with what appears to be some kind of hound. I always tell her I love her even though I didn't mean to.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • akitariseakitarise
    Posts: 180
    Yeah he died in February. He was 16 years old and had cancer and successfully underwent chemotherapy. He lived a good life:) Cesar's got Junior now and he is a gorgeous pittie :)
    Post edited by akitarise at 2010-05-04 11:46:44
  • JessicaRabbitJessicaRabbit
    Posts: 4749
    I don't have a lot of nice things to say about Cesars training methods, but I will be the first to say that because he has such a media following, I do appreciate that he is a pit bull advocate.
    Fuzzy Gang Signature
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • akitariseakitarise
    Posts: 180
    yeah everyone has different views on him. I like him and am grateful that hes an advocate on all the "dangerous breeds" . Believe me when you have websites like this http://www.dogsbite.org/ Im glad someone takes a stand against stereotypes
    Post edited by akitarise at 2010-05-04 11:55:09
  • JessicaRabbitJessicaRabbit
    Posts: 4749
    That website makes me sick. There "statistics" have been proven to be false on more than one occasion. One of the organizations I work closely with has a legal team dedicated to just keeping them in line.
    Fuzzy Gang Signature
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • akitariseakitarise
    Posts: 180
    GOOD!! I hate that website myself..
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    That site is a riot, I can't believe they can get away with writing such BS...I bet they get most of their statistics from the media (if not off of their own site), as the media will make the pit bull the default breed for a dog attack if they don't know the actual breed or want to get more ratings.
    image
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    I've been ignoring this conversation, because, TBQH, its getting old for me. I'm sick of this argument, and this "Why Cesar Millan is great/shit" topic. But here I go again...

    I don't think Cesar is purposely doing harm to the dog community, and I would be a fool to try and argue that. I believe he does love dogs and does want to do good for them. I don't think Cesar is a bad person, however I do think NatGeo and Cesar's corporate army is driven purely by greed and money and cares nothing for the dog community.

    Every technique Cesar uses is *not* incorrect, and most of his techniques (whether he knows it or not) are based on Learning Theory, as are 99.99999% of all training methods, and Learning Theory is pretty much the base for the training of almost any living creature (with a relatively complex brain). So, while I am not a fan of his compulsion-based training techniques, and I prefer not to use them, I cannot argue that his training techniques are incorrect, because that would be arguing that some parts of Learning Theory are incorrect.

    The issue I have with Cesar is how he explains his methods (via his "alpha", "dominance", & "pack leader" mantra), and what he says his methods are doing. The information he basis his "methods" on, and what he calls his "dog physiology", are incorrect and outdated concepts. This is what bothers me with him, he is a (very) public figure who is actively promoting a compulsion-based training mindset, while basing (and describing) his methods on an incorrect understanding of a wild canine social structure.

    The current, and most accepted, idea in the behavioral community is that domestic dogs do not form a rigid dominance social hierarchy, which is the core belief Cesar basis his "dog physiology" on.

    The most recent study of wild wolves have lead most wolf researches to stop using the terms "alpha" and "dominance" when referring to the wolves social structure and behavior - this is primarily because they have found that a wolf "pack" is actually made up of a "mom & dad" (a "nuclear family unit") and their progeny (aka a family). Only the "mom & dad" breed, the offspring stay around until they are old enough to look for a mate - then they leave the current pack to join another pack or create their own. Some adults never leave - just like some people never find a spouse.

    So, the issue with using the terms "alpha" and "dominance", or imply domestic dogs live in a "pack", when referring to dog behavior and canine social interaction is that it implies dogs adhere to a rigid social structure - which, per the latest ideas (by latest I mean since the 1980s), is incorrect and misleading.

    Here is a study on domestic canine social structure: http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html

    There are some really good articles out there on this subject too...
    http://www.apdt.com/petowners/articles/docs/DominanceArticle.pdf
    http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx
    http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/advanstar/vm0908/#/32
    http://abrionline.org/article.php?id=254
    http://abrionline.org/article.php?id=225
    http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/cesar-millan-and-merial/

    David Mech, who was one of the main contributors to the early alpha/dominance concepts, now admits that the use of "Alpha" and "Dominance", when describing how wild wolves fight within a pack to gain "dominance" is "outmoded" (to use his exact term)...

    "Schenkel’s Classic Wolf Behavior Study Available in English

    Below you can download a pdf version of Schenkel’s 1947 “Expressions Studies on Wolves.” This is the study that gave rise to the now outmoded notion of alpha wolves. That concept was based on the old idea that wolves fight within a pack to gain dominance and that the winner is the “alpha” wolf. Today we understand that most wolf packs consist of a pair of adults called “parents” or “breeders,” (not “alphas”), and their offspring."

    source: http://www.davemech.org/schenkel/index.html

    Here is Mech's recent ideas on "Alpha Status, Dominance, and Division of Labor in Wolf Packs"...

    "Labeling a high-ranking wolf alpha emphasizes its rank in a dominance hierarchy. However, in natural wolf packs, the alpha male or female are merely the breeding animals, the parents of the pack, and dominance contests with other wolves are rare, if they exist at all. During my 13 summers observing the Ellesmere Island pack, I saw none.

    Thus, calling a wolf an alpha is usually no more appropriate than referring to a human parent or a doe deer as an alpha. Any parent is dominant to its young offspring, so "alpha" adds no information. Why not refer to an alpha female as the female parent, the breeding female, the matriarch, or simply the mother? Such a designation emphasizes not the animal's dominant status, which is trivial information, but its role as pack progenitor, which is critical information."

    http://www.mnforsustain.org/wolf_mech_dominance_alpha_status.htm

    But Mech is talking about wolves, we are talking about domestic canine (which are very different from each other) and in domestic canine, and their interaction with each other (and humans), the idea of a dominance hierarchy has been debunked by most of the modern day behaviorist (see links above).

    So, the use of the term "dominance" when applied (or referring) to any part of domestic canine interaction is incorrect - no matter how it is used (as a descriptor or to imply social structure), and that is the issue I have with Cesar and his show - and I am not the only one, the APDT is an organization that was started with one of its primary focuses to combat the use of the dominance/alpha concepts - before Cesar ever had a show!

    ----

    Then there is this, and I write this a lot, but I really think it makes a great point...

    If presented with 2 options to achieve 1 training goal for your dog, why would you choose the potentially relationship-damaging compulsion-based method over a positive and safe reward based method?

    You can achieve the same results either way, just one involves "happy talk" and treats while the other involves force and potentially damaging physical contact.

    Why would you take the risk? Cesar does in every single one of his shows, I wouldn't let that man near any of my dogs, no matter what good he does or how much he likes dogs.

    ----
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2010-05-04 23:13:36
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5510
    Well said Brad. ~
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    This couldn't be anymore accurate...



    *Excuse the language.

    ----
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • akitariseakitarise
    Posts: 180
    Eh like i said everybody's got a different view on him. I like him and Victoria both but to me they're both just tv shows. Any idiot who believes that they can change their dog in 30 min obviously deserves a head check. I like the message Cesar sends about being a pack leader,everything else is just entertainment to me. And Cesar acknowledges that there are many different training methods and suggests using the one that the owner feels most comfortable with and that works for them and their dog. My dogs are trained the way i wanted and i have no problems with them. anyways that's the way i think.
    thought this was pretty interesting :)
    http://www.americanhumane.org/about-us/newsroom/news-releases/dog-training-symposium.html
    Post edited by akitarise at 2010-05-05 15:36:34
  • ahaha, that was good!
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1671
    LMAO!!!!! Thanks for the clip....
    Snf
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • ala-chanala-chan
    Posts: 93
    Brad, the clip hit the point! *lol*
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    @akitarise - You wrote: "I like the message Cesar sends about being a pack leader,everything else is just entertainment to me."

    Did you happen to read/see this link from my above post?
    http://www.apdt.com/petowners/articles/docs/DominanceArticle.pdf

    ----
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 590

    Kohji - Kai Ken
    Taj - Shiba Inu
    Post edited by kwyld at 2010-05-05 22:15:08
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3975
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 3663
    You guys are cracking me up on the (non) Cesar Clips...Hilarious! (And also they pretty much all get at the problem with Millan). And I love the actor in the second ones....He was on the Wire! And Southpark--we always used to say that if my male Shiba was a character on South Park, he'd be Cartman...*lol*
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • JessicaRabbitJessicaRabbit
    Posts: 4749
    @akitarise
    I asked my girlfriend who is part of the AHA's behavioral team about that post. She said they were delighted that he is open to discuss why they are so disapproving of his methods, but that they IN NO WAY endorse his training techniques at all.
    Fuzzy Gang Signature
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • akitariseakitarise
    Posts: 180
    @jessicarabbit
    I am not implying that AHA endorses his methods. I posted it due to this -Recently American Humane met with the National Geographic Channel and Cesar Millan, with whom we have had some sharp differences of view in the past, to discuss issues of concern to both parties. We are pleased with the collaborative conversation that resulted, and while we do not agree in all areas, we are surprised with the many areas of mutual interest we find that we do share.Millan has indicated an interest and intent to participate in the symposium.- Im pleased to hear that he plans to attend the symposium. Perhaps he will learn why so many people have a problem with his methods and develop different techniques that will be less controversial.

    @ Brad1878
    i read the article. It was very interesting as i am new to all the different training methods that are used on this forum. But to be honest I still don't consider Cesar to be a horrible person.The Pack leader and leadership term mean the same thing to me. I don't agree with treating a dog for everything. I don't agree with alpha rolling a dog either. So I am still learning about the different methods at this time. I trained my own dogs without problems by making them work for what they want. I used shht ( which i used long before i ever heard of Cesar) by tapping the dogs on the nose when they mouthed me too hard and i dont have fearful dogs. They are happy dogs to me.
    Post edited by akitarise at 2010-05-12 10:52:50
  • TeamLaikaTeamLaika
    Posts: 302
    Has anyone read this article? So much for being the Pack Leader...

    http://jeandonaldson.com/jeans-blog-mainmenu-51/64-are-dogs-pack-animals
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • JessicaRabbitJessicaRabbit
    Posts: 4749
    I <3 Jean Donaldson. I could read her articles all day. I swear I will take her dog training program just to spend more time with her.<br />
    But Sarah I guess you're right, so much for pack leaders! LOL
    Fuzzy Gang Signature
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • KevinKevin
    Posts: 346
    Okay, I can't even lie. That Charlie Murphy video was hysterical.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 3432
    Oh my God, thank you for that link. I gave it to someone on another forum who was recommending Millan to fellow forum member.
    -Rina
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • shinigamishinigami
    Posts: 12
    All i know victoria Tells a dog about 50 times to sit...sit,sit,sit,sit,sit,sit,sit,sit,sit,sit,sit,sit,sit,sit,sit..Come on which sit do you want the first or last..
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • JessicaRabbitJessicaRabbit
    Posts: 4749
    Actually she often correct owners for giving a command repeatedly.
    Fuzzy Gang Signature
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • shinigamishinigami
    Posts: 12
    I dont know about that..The last episode i watched I was pretty sure that i heard her say Sit at least seven time...Any its not only in that one episode...To each his own...
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    I have noticed some technique slip-ups on Victoria's part too... But, I'll take a few technique screw ups over hanging a dog by his leash any day.

    No one is perfect. Repeating a queue a few too many times while training a dog, or having poor timing with a clicker when capturing a behavior will not hurt a dog. Can't really say the same for some of the other TV trainer's techniques.

    ----
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 3663
    Yep, I totally agree with Brad here. Good post.

    As for saying something seven or eight times....huh, does she have a Shiba? *lol*
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • ala-chanala-chan
    Posts: 93
    I agree with that too... There's a difference between doing something not perfect and hurting a dog on purpose...

    But repeating commands too often is really not good especially with a stubborn Shiba, that only learns "I don't have to obey the command now, she'll give it six times more anyways!"... ;)
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00

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