Hunting With a Non-Working Line Dog?

Sangmort

If you can't tell, I'm getting more excited as life's plans have been settling, & God Willing next year I might be able to finally start looking into getting my pup! [ ie: Picking a breeder & Getting on a waiting list ] & the closer it gets, the more excited I get! [ well that's a lie, the more excited me AND my fiancee get LOL ]

So forgive me if you see a ton of Osy threads pop up withing the next 6 ~ 9 months, I just can't hold my questions in & believe you me, I have a ton of them!

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So, the more we think about it, the more we are seriously considering hunting with our nihon ken. We've both always been interested in hunting [ w/out dogs ] but being able to train a couple of dogs to hunt along side us, to work with, just seems all the more fun! &, all the more..."fulfilling." Hunting by yourself is a challenge in & of itself, training your dogs, being out there in the wilderness hunting...being able to catch something after that extra effort...oh I get an adrenaline rush just thinking about it! haha

SO...here's a question for you all. We are looking at getting a Shika & a Kai [ with possibly a 3rd nihon ken later down the line, still unsure of the breed ] however...I think I can comfortably say there are no "working line" Shikoku & Kai in the states.

SO...how important is it to have a pup from working-line dogs? Is it possible to train non-working line dogs to hunt efficiently? Is it going to take more work? Is it even feasible to [ successfully ] train & hunt with a non-working line nihon ken?

The other questions are...how easy is it to import working-line pups from Japan? Is it easier to contact a breeder, go pick one up yourself? or Contact a breeder, & have the pup shipped?

Are the working-line breeders [ of kai & shikoku ] even willing to let their pups go to a state-side home?

What are everyone's thoughts & opinions? Ne personal experiences?


Thanks guys, you know I love you my forum family ~

Calia

It's about time that Osy will get her hands on her own pups, instead of figuring out how to bag everyone elses

the_november_rain

This is really wonderful news.!!

shishiinu

Sangmort: It all comes down to the individual dog. Just as an example. My experience with working with fied trial bird dogs, you will have a perfect pup from parents that are champion field dogs but the pup cant hunt worth any thing. I had a flat coated retriever once that came from the pound. This dog hunted better then any champion field dogs I have ever seen.

Not every working line pup will hunt and the same goes with none working dogs. You'll get a pup from a none-working line that will hunt better then any working line dog out there. I read a great article in one of my hunting dog magazines. The question was wether to buy a puppy or buy a "started" or "finished" dog. You'll end up with two schools of thought.

One is the satisfaction of training yur own puppy from start to finish but gambling with the possibility of having a dog that won't hunt. Or paying more money for a dog that hunts like a pro but not being able to enjoy puppy hood. Puppies carry the genes from their parents and having the parent dogs that hunt will increase the odds of having a puppy that will grow and learn to hunt.

Training big game hunting dogs and bird dogs are a bit different. Big game dogs require more time with live animals and careful attention to the dogs ability to hunt. Alot of time a young dog requires a "mentor" or a older finished dog that can show the younger dogs how to hunt. I have seen disasterous hunts with people taking young half trained dogs out into the field but a young dog requires lots of time afield to build its desire to chase.

Many working line dog breeders will only cross the trued and tried hunting dogs together to increase the odds of having young dogs that will make hunting dogs. But with so many none-working line dog breeders breeding for physical perfection, this type of breeding strain out the hunting instincts out of the dogs. That is not to say that a puppy from the none working dogs would'nt hunt, the odds of ending up with a puppy that will not hunt is greater.

I hope this helps a bit in picking a puppy suited for hunting.

montanadoglover

Many working line dog breeders will only cross the trued and tried hunting dogs together to increase the odds of having young dogs that will make hunting dogs. But with so many none-working line dog breeders breeding for physical perfection, this type of breeding strain out the hunting instincts out of the dogs. That is not to say that a puppy from the none working dogs would'nt hunt, the odds of ending up with a puppy that will not hunt is greater.

Wouldn't you say, however, that breeding the hunting out of the dogs might be more true for those breeds that have been bred for a long time and have had that separation for a long time? In other words, maybe that it's not so true for a Shikoku or Kai or Kishu that hasn't been bred that long for the show ring or whatever, and so that instinct might be more hard-wired into them, maybe closer to the surface that with a Lab or Brittany, and thus more reachable with proper training? In more other words, maybe the nihonken are more salvageable than show-line Pointers, for an example.....

I don't know, I'm just asking. Hunting and hunting lines are not my areas of expertise. But I wouldn't think there are THAT many generations of nihonken bred away from hunting? Or is this just fantasy on my part?

shishiinu

One thing about the Nihon Ken's in Japan is that I believe there are more none working line breeding taking place due to the declining popularity in hunting in Japan. Hunting in Japan has been taking a hard decline as there are less people wanting to hunt. Thus the need for working nihonken has also declined. Especially after WWII when firearms became illegal to own other then for the use of hunting and sporting.

I think it all comes down to the dog but getting a puppy from working line parents will increase the odds of getting better hunters IMHO. My lab Hana came from working parents and thus she has turned out to be an excellent bird dog with very basic training. I feel that if I had a lab from none field dogs, my work would have been harder to turn the dog into a field ready dog.

Another example is my kishu Riki, his parents came from a wild pig farm. With basic training Riki was able to trail and catch hogs within his first year. Becuase of his eagerness to hunt, it was easier to put him on new game like bear and bobcats.

I really believe that the genes to hunt and work are instilled from the parent dog. If you have a parent dog that came from several generations of none working dogs, the out come will be a puppy that does not have the genes to hunt.

I'm not a scientist but this is just from my experience working with hunting dogs of my own and other people.

dlroberts

I'm not a geneticist either, but I don't think "hunting ability" can be "closer to the surface" or not. It is either present in a reasonable level or it is not.

I cite the Russian Silver Fox experiments:




All it took was 10 generations of selecting for "softer" temperaments and there were profound physiological changes in the foxes. Granted dogs are not foxes, however, I don't think its a far stretch to conclude that a comparable number of generations in dogs could produce similar results. In this case, selecting for a particular look independent of temperament could produce a significant change in temperament. Can the missing temperament be recovered? Absolutely! But it requires focusing on producing the best hunting dogs possible and ignoring the looks of the dog. As long as there are some dogs that have the characteristics desired for hunting, you can always get them back. It just depends on what else you're willing to give up to get it. I don't think that's unique to the Nihon Ken. I think Labs or Pointers can be recovered just as easily with careful breeding, perhaps even more easily due to the relatively large numbers of those breeds.

dlroberts

"I think Labs or Pointers can be recovered just as easily with careful breeding, perhaps even more easily due to the relatively large numbers of those breeds."

So, I was thinking about this while I was walking the dogs this morning, and I think perhaps that isn't totally true. The reason it may not be true is that Labs and Pointers are bred to have altered prey FAPs whereas hunting dogs like hounds or the nihon ken are bred to have intense, but complete, prey FAPs. Again, this is a naive opinion, but it seems the creating an altered FAP is far harder to accomplish than selecting for an intense, but complete, FAP. So perhaps it may actually be harder to recreate working lines in Pointers or Labs than it would be for nihon ken. If that's the case, then it would be a function of the number of generations since an intact FAP was present in the breed (as well as effort to select away from the working temperament.

Again, this is all speculation though.

shishiinu

what a great topic to talk about. Like I said before it all comes down to the puppy that is being trained. I have seen both bird and big game dogs which came from show pedigree hunt their heart out and I have seen pups from champion field hunting pedigree which would be better off watching the kids at home.

I figure there are some science involved in the selection of puppies for hunting use but it is a gamble. Luckily I have not been stuck with a dog that does not hunt (except for my wife's rottie) and I hope I never do end up with a dog that does not hunt. Its a life long commitment and puppy selelction is probably the hardest thing when looking for that perfect little hunter.

TheWalrus

I'm not sure of the science behind genetics/hunting, some of it's training, but a lot of it is just instinct. From what I've seen, a lot of it does seem to be hard wired in, and is passed on in 'hunting lines'. Of course you will get the occasional pup that is not interested, or doesn't have the drive, but just like breeding for anything (show/hunt/obedience) not every dog from a 'line' is going to be right for the job. But, if you for instance wanted a show dog, you might want to increase your chances of it growing up to be showable by selecting from a 'show line'.

Most dogs end up being mediocre. That's not to say the dog is, just means they end up somewhere in the middle, and probably won't end up winning gold in the canine Olympics. If you're looking to experience hunting with your Nihonken, almost all of them will enjoy being outdoors, and most will probably put on a good show of tracking/chasing things. Just running around in the outdoors testing yourself and your dog is in itself extremely rewarding. But if you're a serious hunter, you do end up needing a more serious dog, and that dog needs the whole package to be able to be useful on a 'real' hunt.

Haru is not from a working kennel. A lot of dogs from the kennel have gone to working homes, so I guess it goes to show that there is still a lot of the 'working' genes left in the line. In truth though, she's from a 'show' line. So although I don't know what kind of hunter she'll end up being, I don't hold too many high expectations. She's doing great so far, and we're working to iron out a few kinks here and there.

I got a bit of a chewing out yesterday from a hunter friend of mine about expecting too much, pushing too much, putting a pup in too many positions where it could end up failing on the hunt. Haru is still a pup, and has a long way to go, many more things to experience before becoming a 'finished' hunting dog. I'd sort of jumped up a few rungs of the ladder w/o really thinking about it, when training a pup needs to be a planned deliberate experience for hunter and pup. All the work and effort is totally worth it though. I had the most amazing day yesterday on the opening day of hunting season here in Chiba. Terrific fun, tired out pups, it's all good.

Last words of advice to anyone thinking about hunting: GET A GARMIN ASTRO 220! The peace of mind of knowing where your dog is at all times, knowing where you are at all times, marking spots to come back and hunt again, distance covered, and so much more. I can't think of heading out without one now. And of course if your a tech geek like me, it's fun to have all the numbers to crunch later (hmmm the average altitude boar nest sits at 122meters above sea level). One tip, bring extra batteries :P I nearly ran out at the end of the day with Haru a 100 meters away chasing pigs.

shishiinu

I second on the Garmin 220! Get a good tracking device, without one you will one day regret not getting one.

One thing to remember is that if you use a dog for hunting it is considerd the taking of a game so please hunt legally. You must have a license (ca requires 8hour hunter safety course), you must be within the legal seasons, and have the correct tags/stamps. The last thing you want is to have your dog taken away and be cited for illegal take of game (misdemeanor offense in ca). In ca there really is no inbetween hunting, you either do it legally or dont do it at all. Most of the field trials and pig baying events require hunting licenses. You cannot just take you dog out and allow it to chase wild animals (in ca).

One other thing I would like to stress is if your dog has never been exposed gun fire, you may want to check for gun shyness in a controlled environment. If you fire a rifle or a shotgun near you dog in the field, it maybe the last time you will see your dog. Most training for testing gun shyness will start with a small caliber gun like a .22 or a field cap gun (I will start a post for that later on step by step training). From that point you move up to larger caliber firearms. I had the hardest time breaking Riki of gunshyness but Yuki and Hana will go nuts when they see camo or guns near me because they know they are going hunting.

Please hunt legally, ethically, and safely. There are too many people against the use of dogs for hunting and the last thing we need is an incident to help their rediculous cause.

Sangmort

Thanks guys for all your help & info! [ if you've nething else to add, please feel free to ]

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Beth - No no no no no. I'm still going to steal everyone else's pups because I love them so much

Jessika - I know! Pray for us

Dave - I'm curious about just how much of that hunting-drive is left in show / pet lines too. Obviously, someTHING [ no matter how small ] must still be there since we've got the Ahi monster LOL

Shigeru - No worries! The GPS was the first thing that came to mind when I tought of hunting supplies LOL

Gen - Deffinitely going to look up the rules & laws in the state & follow them. I'm not a big law breaker, esp. with my name. They haven't been kind to arabs in the last few years haha ~

lindsayt

Osy, there are lots of "showline" breeders in Shiba who breed for proper drive. The dogs have huge prey and ball drive that can be shaped into more feasable activities like Agility and showing. I don't have any doubt that hunting drives are present in current show lines (regarding Shiba) if bred correctly. I think it's more a matter of are the dogs sturdy and agile enough to do the hard work that I imagine hunting would involve (likely not). While mine enjoy going after rabbits and quail in controlled situations, that's about as far as I want them to go. I do know that the hunting instinct is present.