Of Hunting & Nihon Ken

Sangmort

Alright. There have been a few hunting threads, & the more I read...the more I see videos..the more intrigued I become that this might be summit I want to do in the far future ;p

So...some questions!

o1 - Is it best to start training your pup to hunt when they're younger? If so at what age should you start? [ 8 weeks, 4 months, 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, etc. ]

o2 - Would one dog be sufficient to hunt game? Are 2 better? 3? Or a large pack?

o3 - If one plans to hunt with 2 dogs, is it beneficial to get them both when they're young [ at the same time ] & teach them to hunt together? Or should one get the first pup, train it, then get the second pup?

o4 - What type of game can they hunt other than boar & deer? How about wild turkey or pheasant?

o5 - The nihon ken are notorious for not being off-leash dogs, so when hunting do you let them off leash? How do they know what to hunt / trail? When they find the target, how do they know to bay it & not chase after some other creature? [ ex; how do they know to bay a deer instead of chasing after a squirrel... ]

o6 - What is the best temperament to look for in a hunting nihon ken? High Drive? Confidence?

Hmmm....think that's all for now. I'm not looking for "traditional" hunting methods, but how people hunt with nihon ken today...more so...just how the whole process works from when you first get your pup, to training, to actually hunting, etc.

I know we have some hunters on here & some people who have done research...so please share! Also, any sites / article suggestions would be greatly appreciated! [ particularly if it deals with nihon ken hunting or spitz-dog hunting ]

Thanks guys ~

TheWalrus

I'll just answer these to the best of my personal knowledge, and what I've been taught from other hunters.

1. Younger is better. You can start off from the day you get the pup, teaching it little things like following scents, playing games that simulate hunting. When they're able to go out for walks, walking them in the area you'd hunt is good to get them used to the terrain and smells.

2. Depends what you are hunting. Going after birds you will be fine with 1 dog, but on big game most dogs will do better in a pack. There are some dogs that because of their hunting style will do better solo. But those are few and far between. The number of dogs in a hunting pack is based on the hunting styles and prowess of the dogs. Hunters I know run anywhere from 1-6 dogs at a time (every once in a while they may have a few young pups running with the pack tacked onto that). The majority run 3-5.

3. Hunting only young inexperienced dogs together is usually not a good idea. There is a higher chance of developing bad habits, and most often the hunt devolves into play. The best way to train a pup is with an older experienced dog.

4. Most dogs can be taught to hunt anything. I had JRT's that would hunt boar, and a friend hunts deer with his Brittany. The Nihon Ken will hunt most anything, but can be encouraged to hunt what you're after. Of course some dogs enjoy chasing certain types of prey over others. The slight majority of Kai that hunt are used as bird dogs (pheasant, quail) with the rest pretty much on boar. Kishu, Shikoku, Hokkaido, are mostly big game hunters, ie boar/deer. The only Shiba's I know that hunt are bird dogs. On a side note, most dogs that hunt boar will at first chase deer as well.

5. There is a lot of hype about about them not being off leash dogs. I haven't found Haru to be much harder to train off leash than any of the other dogs I've had, but she's just one dog, and perhaps it's because I've put so much effort into it from day one. But yes, they are off leash when hunting. As far as teaching them what to target, introducing the scent of their prey when they're pups helps. Haru had a skinned boar head. Hunters will also introduce pups to a small caged boar and encourage them to smell/bark at it. Mostly though, it's just a matter of getting out into the wild and hoofing it.

6. I asked this question a lot while looking for a pup. The answer I always seemed to get was that there are great hunting dogs with all sorts of temperaments. The advice I got was to choose a pup whose parents are working dogs, from the same lines. Dog from different lines, even if they're both working lines, have a much lower chance to produce dogs 'true' to that line. One thing I was told to watch out for was that 1 hunter with 10-20 dogs making his own line will end up with too much inbreeding, and that naturally is not healthy. Choosing a dog from a line that many hunters in the area have, is the best bet to getting a good hunting dog. As far as the best temperament, some hunters liked picking the most aggressive pup, but most said go for the mild one that shows good reaction to sounds/scents, and is inquisitive. Last but not least, at least over here, hunting is something that only happens 3 months out of the year, so for the rest of the year a hunting dog is a pet. Choosing a dog with a temperament that suits you.

TheWalrus

A video of some pups chasing boar in a training pen.







Some links to some hunter blogs (in Japanese) that I follow. Some of these guys are friends of mine, and some just internet acquaintances.

http://ameblo.jp/tandoku708/

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/sioux_dogs

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/iulius_predator/MYBLOG/yblog.html

http://kuroimonokai.com/hayatepapa/

http://ww6.tiki.ne.jp/~a-wild-boar/redfang_2008.htm

http://www9.ocn.ne.jp/~inoino/main.html

Calia

This is an interesting thread, and a slightly off topic thought came to mind. I wonder if anyone has used hunting dog techniques to track down and find animals for tagging or relocating. Would it be considered inhumane since your not killing the animal? Would it be possible to teach the dog to bay without harming or biting the animal after it is caught/knocked out?

TeamLaika

Beth: The answer is yes. See Working Dogs for Conservation http://www.workingdogsforconservation.org/

A contact of mine in Italy used his RELs to track bear and obtain info for a local university.

Dogs are also often called in to track wounded deer. Check out these dachshunds! http://borntotracknews.blogspot.com/

TeamLaika

I don't disagree with anything that The Walrus has said, but I wanted to make one small clarification.

Laika puppies will start "looking up" and treeing when they are as young as 4-6 months old. The best thing to do is to take them in the woods and walk around from a young age. Do this ALONE. A young puppy should NOT be run with older dogs until they have the stamina to do so. They are unable to keep up, get exhausted and lose focus quickly and they will be lost.

So, by yourself with the young dog, just stroll. Begin to make it the puppy's responsibility to check in with you periodically. Practice mini-recalls and releases back into the woods. I usually tie a strand of weed whip cord to the pups collar as a short drag line to reinforce the concept if necessary (it won't get tangled or snarled like a check cord will). If they find something to bark at, investigate and praise them if it is correct game. If not, keep walking and they will catch up. Familiarize them with gunfire.

Some dogs are better boar dogs than moose dogs and vice-versa. Same for bear. Not all are very interested in birds. Squirrels and any member of the weasel family seem to universally generate excitement.

When older and more fit they should absolutely run with experienced dogs only. Young Foxhounds are actually physically 'coupled' to an older hound with their collar. Inexperienced dogs need to develop confidence and good habits. If they are intimidated by the game, they will run back to the safest place they know: the owner. This is a very dangerous situation in the event the dog has a teed-off mama bear or bull moose in tow.

Training pens can be very valuable since they can help dogs learn to work together and there is guaranteed success with finding quarry. Once they get the idea, they will look for that scent again. You can stimulate interest with pelts of desired game.

You can also live-trap things and put the cage up in a tree.

sukoshi_mom

See also the Hunting w/ Elkhounds ("Moosedogs") discussion thread.

Sangmort

Shigeru, Sarah...Thank you SO MUCH!!!! You have no idea how helpful you two have been! I was completely lost about it up until now, I think tho I have a very good idea of how it's done now. Thanks for taking the time to share! [ & amazing Video & pictures!!! ]

So I guess the key points would be

- Start when they're young
- Encourage their prey drive for [ correct ] game
- Heavy duty recall training
- Training in the woods / hunting grounds [ off season is probably safest ]
- Scent Training with pelts or caged game
- Once the pups are older, find someone with experienced dogs for them to run alongside with
- Get them accustomed to gunshot sounds
- 1 - 3 dogs is good for small game, more dogs for larger game

Ha! You guys have me all revved up now


Sukoshi - I'll be sure to check it out! Thanks! ~

akitarise

Out of curiosity are akitas ever used in hunting now? Ive looked online but i cant find any type of information except for their old history of hunting. I did how ever find a youtube vid with a akita chasing a deer. It was pretty neat to watch

ShikokuSpirit

Luckually, we're allowed to keep pot bellied pigs as "house pets" here . Though, that might confuse the Shikoku! Now, that's an idea...


...I hear pigs are very clean btw.

ayk

You can purchase a preservative-free boar hide from some dogo hunters. Hides used for dog training are dried but not treated with chemicals.

Just a forewarning, though, the hide still reeks. Should be outdoor use only... and maybe with no close neighbors.

Reno&Rico

My huskies were hunters too, now it's better, just not to healthy for the cats in my garden. But they chased cow, horses and honestly, they killed a few sheep. Good he was on the leash here in Switserland! He loved it all his life to make them crazy!