Kishu Ken Questions
I am really going to show my ignorance about Kishus right now, but since we have a new pup on the forum (who I am adoring right now...luvin Tomoe) I would like to know more about the Kishu.
I have heard it said that they were breed to be the most perfect dog in Japan. Does anyone know what breeds were mixed to create the Kishu of today.
Also, I heard that their temperment/behavior is a mix of an Akita and a Kai. This loses me. What does that mean? It it's even true.
I have heard it said that they were breed to be the most perfect dog in Japan. Does anyone know what breeds were mixed to create the Kishu of today.
Also, I heard that their temperment/behavior is a mix of an Akita and a Kai. This loses me. What does that mean? It it's even true.
Comments
They're supposed to be "nicer" than the Akita, more biddable and trainable, less reactive. I don't know about the Kai.
Did you also notice from the posts online that their weight range is 30-60 pds? That's a mighty big gap there.
All of the Nihonken, except the Akita and Shiba, were isolated in remote areas of Japan and have pretty pure lines - relatively speaking - they are probably not as pure as they once were. So I think it's a stretch to say the Kishu was the "progenitor" for the other breeds - I do know that, during the reconstruction period, they used the standard from the Kishu as the basis of the standard for the other breeds - but that is just paper, not genetics.
I have never met a Kishu in person, so I cannot speak to their temperament. Based on my experience with the other Shika Inu I would bet they are more biddable than the Shiba, I dunno about the Akita tho - I think our Akita are pretty darn easy to train. I would NOT expect the Kishu to be less reactive either - it's been my experience that the Shika Inu are MORE reactive than the Akita and Shiba (hints their less refined origin).
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The thing about Japan is that its small, but very vertical, and so you wind up with very small regions that are very isolated from each other. Before they started laying a lot of railroad tracks in the late 19th century, most people didn't venture far from the region they were born in. You'd wind up with villages that were geographically only a couple miles apart but if you took a person out of one town and dropped him in the other he would barely be able to understand what people were saying. To this day, different regions have maintained different ways of doing things, for example the sake would be different, miso would be different, etc.
The medium sized breeds really come out of this kind of regional tradition. The region Kishus are associated with, which is Wakayama and Mie prefecture, is close enough to Kyoto / Nara that the breed has a cache as being part of the culture of that area, which is the "high culture" of Japan...since Kyoto and Nara were where the royal court was based, even after the Shogunate formed.
Anyway, there is a heavy kind of cultural baggage attached to Kishus because of this. The breed spec is for white dogs, for example, which is a color associated with the "spirit world" and land of the dead in Shinto. That's why Kishus were considered to be the "examplar" dog breed and probabyl why they were used to "reconstruct" the Akita breed after WWII.
What this means to you and me is probably nothing. There is the possibility that Kishus tend to be a bit larger and longer than Kais and Shikoku. What kind of temperment differences, I am not qualified to say, because I don't own an example of any other breed right now and even then, I would only be able to speak about my individual dogs. It is possible that Kishus show more sex characteristics in their shape than Shikoku, based on the limited information I have.
My wife says, however, that Kishus are the second most popular working nihonken breed in Japan - she says that in Japan, nihonken breeds account for 10% of pet dogs, with those being Shibas, Kishus, Shikoku, and then Hokka, Kai, and Akita are at the bottom but I don't know the order. Again i think this is just because the area that the breed is associated with, and their white color, grants them this particularly "classically Yamato" cache.
I don't know the specifics on the color and what breeders are producing, but I would bet you could find colored Kishu if you visited some of the kennels that only produce working Kishu. That's just a guess tho. I really like the sesame Kishu (and the brindle Hokka).
As far as temperament goes, looking back at this forum, and the Kishu owner who have contributed here (all 4 of them, including Cliff), the Kishu seems to be a very reactive breed. The owners that have visited with us who own adult Kishu all seem to have dog-to-dog issues with their Kishu. Having met the majority of the Shikoku in America, and a good number of the Kai, I would not expect the Kishu to be any more (or less) reactive than the other Shika Inu Nihonken breeds. That's a very generalized statement I just made, so obviously RMV.
And, as Cliff admitted, I have to admit that I have not met a Kishu and have only met Shikoku and Kai related to the lines in North America... So I can not speak 100% accurately to the temperament of any of these breeds in a global sense.
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My Japanese friends who grew up with a Kishu for family dog...they always say wonderful things about them. They are gentle, loving and good dogs. However, I get the feeling that they are very different toward strangers.
My wife plays up this long standing cultural vendetta between Kanto (incl Kyoto, Tokyo, and I think Kai; land settled by a wave of rustic tough-guy types who grew into the samurai) area people and Kansai (including Nara, Kyoto, Wakayama, where the royal court has always been) area people, so to her mind Kishus wouldn't be as popular in Tokyo / Yokohama because they're too "noble class" and not "eastern barbarian" enough.
- very sweet
- trusting
- dog-reactive: she's extremely concerned about the other dogs
- people-reactive: she's getting good at warming up to friends, but she's concerned about people walking by the house and terrified of my dad
- really really interested in the smells and textures and flavors in the yard - can't tell how much age is a factor here
- amazingly, unbelievably graceful and powerful for a 9 week old puppy. She is extremely adept at moving fluidly sideways. My shelties were never that good at side-to-side moves.
- quite airheaded - her mind flits around, its hard to keep her attention, and if you move a target past the 45 degree line of where her eyes are point, she loses her "lock" and will find something else in her line of sight to be interested in.
Gonna add my bit here. I actually had a whole thing typed and ready to go when my computer died. Took me 2 days to fix, so here goes again.
The ancestors of all the Japanese breeds are thought to have been brought over thousands of years ago by the Jomon, and later the Yayoi. Due to Japan's geographic and political isolation, there was not much inter breeding with dogs from the continent.
Many of the legends surrounding the formation of the Japanese breeds involve cross breeding with, or direct descendance from wolves, although none of this has been proven genetically. The Kishu's story is that a famous gunman helped a wounded wolf, and in return a pup was left on his doorstep. It was named 'Man', and when it one day stopped a charging boar, became a legend, and the ancestor of the Kishu.
The Kishu originated in the Kii peninsula, an area that includes modern day Wakayama, Mie, and Nara prefectures. Like all the Japanese breeds (other than the Shiba) they were named after their area of origin. They were traditionally used to hunt boar and bear, but have been used to hunt deer as well.
As Japan opened up to the outside world, traders brought dogs with them. In many cases these dogs were systematically bred with the native dogs, as in the case of the Akita and the Tosa. The interbreeding was so widespread that in the early 1900s moves were made to try and save the remaining 'pure' native dogs. Teams scoured the country to find the 'best' dogs. Thus began the classification of the Japanese breeds (and the breed standards).
The Kishu breed was actually made up of several different 'types' of dog that existed on the Kii peninsula. There was no lack of 'yu-shoku' (with color) Kishu in the early days of the breed, apparently many of the famous Kishu from the Edo period were actually black. Pre-WW2 apparently only one-third of Kishu were white. Today however it is the prevalent coloration.
The most popular reason given for this is that the white dogs are easier to distinguish from boar when hunting. While this is one reason, another is that there was a very popular line of white Kishu from Wakayama, which were bred extensively. This combined with the popularity of white dogs among breeders and in the preservation society led to the situation today where an extremely high percentage of Kishu are white.
The last and probably most important reason is genetic. 'Yu-shoku' Kishu breedings, or a white and 'yu-shoku' pair, can result in white pups, but apparently breeding 2 white parents results in only white offspring. I'm not 100% sure on this, but it's what I've been told.
Many of the 'yu-shoku' Kishu today are from working lines, as most hunters didn't care too much about what color their dogs were. Efforts are being made to preserve the 'yu-shoku' Kishu. I believe sesame and brindle are still recognized colors, and looking at pre-WW2 Kishu there were even 'buchi' (spotted or I guess pinto) dogs.
I don't remember what else I typed up last time round, but it's 3am now, so off to bed for me. Hope this helps.
Just another quick question. I seem to read every couple months about the pre-existence of pinto Shikoku and now pinto Kishu. Since my first and favorite horse was a pinto *smiles* I have an affection for the color.
Is there a reason why the Japanese chose to not breed pinto anymore?
2 years ago I saw an interview with a hunter who hunts with Kishu, and he had a black and white 'buchi' Kishu. Reminded me of a Karelian.
Normally true 98% of the time, but there are two rare ways whereby a color pup can occur (barring 2 fathers).
1) One of the white dogs is actually a pinto with no visible color spots.
2) One of the white dogs is actually a red dog whereby the red color has been extensively lightened by gene modifiers. They can be distinguished from normal whites by their black whiskers.
Then it was the second or third day we got her and she was curled up in our bedroom asleep and I FINALLY noticed that she has a mask of really-white. That's when I realized that their coloring is really pretty special.
She's now about 14 months old, still has a high energy level (in fact, she still wears out our 5 month old Hokkaido puppy)
She's still very cautious about most new items
very fast and agile (she will be running full speed and do a 180 to chase a bug)
Very observant and knows what is going on in her surroundings at all times.
Very good at tracking
She will break up Toshi and other dogs if the play gets a little rough
Very manipulative (if Toshi doesn't want to play, she will grab a toy he prefers and start playing with it in front of him until he plays with her)
Very willful and stubborn, once she's focused on something she will figure out how to get it (there's no such thing as out of sight out of mind)
Great at rock scrambling
If bug crosses our path on a walk it gets her attention, she'll normally just glance over at other dogs and most people now,
As does a sandwich board, which she seems to be afraid of for some reason that I can't figure out.
Very eager and willing to learn, typically with any new trick, command, job, etc. she gets it after the first attempt. As long as something else didn't grab her attention because you were boring.