Japanese Kai vs American Kai
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 5510
    Well, we haven't had a discussion on Kai for a while so I thought it was time :)

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    I was wondering if neone has noticed distinct differences between the Kai that have been in the States for a while vs Japan Imports / Japanese Kai?

    Methinks I've been noticing some physical differences [ the "American" Kai being stockier & more bear-like faces, while "Japan" Kai tend to have more of a slender body & less-defined stops. ] The Japan Kai look more like Shikoku to me [ physically ] than the more American Bred Kai...if that makes sense? Am I right on this, or am I just seeing two different bloodlines? D: Also, I see that "American" Kai the brindle is not as strong or apparent or common. There are more "blackish brindle" kai.

    Also, I've noticed [ from video ] that the Japan Kai tend to be more on the extreme end of dog reactive & being "more loyal to one person." Tho, I wonder how much of this is breeding certain temperments there vs here & how much of it is the breeder's / owner's way of raising / socializing the pups.

    Could it be because Kai here are bred to show & many kai there are bred to hunt I'm seeing these differences?

    What are your thoughts?

    [ or am I just imagining everything? hahaha ] ~
  • asiaasia
    Posts: 1090
    Good thoughts Osy. I have noticed the brindle differences myself, but did not really put much thought into it...
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    Posts: 4055
    I think I have read this on the forum before. One major difference is there simply isn't a large gene pool in the US. Most of our Kai's are related some way or another and it's very easy to track. That's why you do not see too much of a color variation. Not many red brindles were shipped over and they were breed with black brindles.

    IMHO yes some of our dogs here are more muscular from what I have seen but as far as color and face type they are the same as in Japan. I went back last year for my cousins wedding and went to a couple breeders kennels. I was planning on importing all my pups because I thought they would be so much better from Japan. Nope. The only difference is they have more, so more choices in color and face shape. IMHO Here the dominate traits have taken over and made dogs that look similar in some ways.

    But don't judge the American Kai's coloring from the few you have seen on this forum. I speak to a lot of Kai owners who are not on here, and their dogs vary from breeder to breeder, litter to litter in color.

    As far as temperment, again don't trust the videos you see on Youtube. All the Kai I met in Japan were very social and were breed for temperment. The Kai here are also more loyal to one person. Most breeders and Kai owners would tell you that, but not every dog in a breed is going to be like that.

    I do think that it is time that more bloodlines are brought into the US, and a couple of the breeders are either doing or planning just that.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    What are everybody's thoughts about this summary?
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    There was originally two types of Kai's. There are two great foundation studs given credit for these distinct characteristics found in today's Kai dogs. KAIKURO willed the "shishi-inu-gata" type which is a thicker, stockier dog with a more bear type face. DAIRO famed for his deer hunting, is credited for the thinner longer bodies with foxier faces called the "shika-inu-gata" type. Each dog gave strength, speed, agility and quick thinking to its descendants as evidenced in the breed today. Currently in Japan, they do not distinguish the two types anymore and no one type is perferred over the other.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    Posts: 4055
    I agree. In the US originally breeding stock, we saw the two types. When you see a Kaikuro breed with a Dairo, the more dominant traits that are passed onto the litter are the Kaikuro traits making our population today more the "bear type".
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1573
    Not sure if this is relevant, but I believe the Kai imports to the States were all JKC registered. The JKC (and Nippo) breed size standard is larger than the Aigokai standard size. I know of a few owners who's Kai were too large to show at the Aigokai, so moved them over to Nippo.

    Overall the JKC Kai I've seen are larger and stockier than most Aigokai registered Kai. Like everyone knows though, there's a lot of size/type/color difference in the Kai breed as a whole. If you like a different 'type' you can always find it somewhere.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    I think it's pretty hard for any of us to say what the differences are between American and Japanese Kai especially given that very few of us have owned and raised (or even seen) a Japanese and American variety. Some of us have more experience with the Japanese bred Kai and some with the American bred Kai.

    Also, as previously mentioned, all the Kai in the states go back to just a few early imported males - it's hard to say how much of Kona, for example, is Rikiro and how much is general Kai breed traits (as far as phenotype goes).

    Kona is most def the "bear type".

    Also, for whatever reason (*cough* Breed Politics *cough*), there is a very small Kai membership here on the forum. I have tried and tried to drive Kai owners here to share experiences but they just don't seem interested. I am on the Yahoo lists and check the other forums too but they don't get much traffic either. It would be nice if the Kai community would come together a bit so we can all share some knowledge and experiences. Kinda makes me sad.

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    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • tobyshibatobyshiba
    Posts: 1058
    Its a shame more Kai owners aren't around. :( ...
    I'd really love to learn more about the breed in general. Either way, i'll be owning them in the future. When I have money and a home that is actually mine. xD;
    Owner of Sesame Shiba Inu (Toby) 8yrs old | Illustrator & Graphic Designer | My Website - Twitter

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    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • shibainumcshibainumc
    Posts: 27
    As a well known kennel in the Kai breed, I have tried numerous times to post and add to discussions, but all post have been blocked (I would guess) and deleted as none appear. I would love to actively discuss the Kai with anyone that is interested. I have owned and lived with the Kai for 12 years now and had the opportunity at one point to have all the original imported lines here in 1st and 2nd geneation.

    Enclosed is a picture of my 3 month old female puppy who is out of a Japanese import male and a female that I bred from our American lines. She is everything that I would like to see in a well balanced and yet correct breed example.

    Marian
    CLASSY KENNEL, MI
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    Posts: 4055
    I have been dying to see Chie Marian! I saw your post on the Yahoo group. How exciting for you and for all of us to get some new bloodlines in the US. Keep up the great work in preserving our Kai and introducing new bloodlines. As you can tell, I'm very excited to see you on this forum. :-} We need more info. for everyone on Kai here.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    Hi Marian,

    There are 55 Kai posts in the Kai Ken category, you can view them here: http://www.nihonken.org/forum/?CategoryID=15. If some are closed that is due to inactivity and you can request and old thread be re-opened or you can just create a new post in the Kai Ken cat.

    If you go to the link above, and don't see any posts, then there may be problem - so please let me know if that's the case.

    Chie is cute, btw.

    Thanx!
    ~Brad

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    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • tobyshibatobyshiba
    Posts: 1058
    Hello Marian!

    Nice to see you posting. :3
    Your puppy is very adorable. :)
    Owner of Sesame Shiba Inu (Toby) 8yrs old | Illustrator & Graphic Designer | My Website - Twitter

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    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • baantonbaanton
    Posts: 1124
    Marian" I love Chie .. what a cutie! Thanks for sharing the pic! We have a Kai named Josephine, and we absolutely adore her! What a fantastic breed!
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • renaerenae
    Posts: 174
    Marian, your Kai puppy is very cute. I'm interested in learning more about the Kai Ken. I'm hoping to get one in the future, but I want to know as much as I can before making my final decision.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3432
    It looks like some of the user accounts were moved or changed.info@hokkaidoken.org
    www.hokkaidoken.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3013
    Aww! Chie is so cute she has a nice looking face.

    I really love the kai ken too I decided to get into shiba inu first, but I might one day get a kai ken once I'm ready I'm still researching.
    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • shibainumcshibainumc
    Posts: 27
    Thank you everyone for the warm and nice comments. I don't check up here everyday so bear with me when I do take a look and proceed to do catch up. I am more then willing to share any personal opinions as well as hopefully some knowledge about the Kai breed. I have been owned by the Shiba for 19 years and they are truly addicting and entertaining and fulfil that child spirit in me. The Kai is my strength and nuturer of love and devotion. They let you know everyday that if you need them, they are available, all you have to do is relate what you want of them. They sense when you are a little out of sorts, sad, very pleased and content, as well as when you are troubled. Does everyone else feel that is an accurate accessment?

    I am so hopeful that Chie continues to grow up as she is now, as I really like the type and look that was produced. By doing a total outcross into the new Japanese import, many times it can take one or two generations before you start to get consistent type. Chie has very good balance and is moderate as the standard calls for repeatably. Even as she is growing she is holding type. She is a good blend of the Kai Kuro and Dairo type. Because there is no such thing as a pure Kai Kuro anymore but is my more preferred look, I am pleased with her looks. I was away judging in Virginia last weekend and another exhibitor/judge (who I put her husband and dog up over her exquisite bitch) said, "Marian is all about correct movement." and she was right. The dog her husband was handling out moved all the others. While all had a fault that I would prefer not to see, that just kind of balanced the playing field, so naturally correct movement without being excessive would be what I would be looking for. Movement should be moderate, consistent and effortless in the Kai.

    Going away again tomorrow for a weekend of judging, but will check in late Sunday when I get back and will answer any questions anyone may have about the breed.

    As a finally note, just would like everyone to know, I love all the Japanese breeds!!! None are better then another, just that each breed type fulfills a different need in our lives as each are so unique.

    Look forward to talking more,

    Marian
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    Posts: 4055
    Marian,
    Just a thought, but you should post your own thread something designated for you to answer questions (i.e. Ask Marian or Classy Thread). There are lots of Shiba owners on here, and only a handful of us Kai owners. And to be honest, most of us have only met 1 or 2 Kai before. We can answer from our experience only with our dogs, but it may not give the true story of the breed.

    Please feel free to share more puppy pics too!
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • renaerenae
    Posts: 174
    I like that idea. This would help others that are also interested in the Kai to learn more about them. There aren't that many sources about the breed but the few of the best sources are breeders, owners, and meeting the breed in person(this one seems a little harder than the two). I can't wait to hear more of people's experiences with the Kai and see more pictures! ^-^
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • MirkaMMirkaM
    Posts: 1248
    Isn't the fox type same as deer type? And wasn't they originally divided to these two types from the look of their face and not by the game they were used? I'm updating our pages and would love to have more info :).
    Kai will lay down its life to protect its master.
    photo banneri_zpsc6e1d74e.jpg
    Kennel Gekkoo No: http://gekkoonoen.webs.com/index.htm
  • MirkaMMirkaM
    Posts: 1248
    Bumping this up :).
    Kai will lay down its life to protect its master.
    photo banneri_zpsc6e1d74e.jpg
    Kennel Gekkoo No: http://gekkoonoen.webs.com/index.htm
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    I had an LOL at my comment from 2009...
  • cdenneycdenney
    Posts: 961
    It's nice to know that kais and their humans are definitely active on here now
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  • ValkyriiValkyrii
    Posts: 157
    I'm glad you bumped this thread. It was interesting to see the discussion (or lack thereof) back in 2009 and how Kai's are almost a daily thing for some of us. I know I'm a relative newcomer to the breed and the forums but we absolutely adore our Kai and look forward to him growing up. My wife is already talking about another one LMAO. That will be much later. We are going to enjoy Nero's puppy hood for now.
  • Hinata23Hinata23
    Posts: 1444
    Yay for Kai owner activity :)
  • sjp051993sjp051993
    Posts: 1605
    LOL. I went back and read your comments Brad. Too bad those breed politics still exist.
    Stacey living with Tora, Kazue, Ritsu and Kuma the Shiba
    www.suteishiikennels.com

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  • mdokicmdokic
    Posts: 1020
    Kai love FTW!!! And @BradA1878, I just read that comment. That's pretty funny. :P
    Michelle, with Kai girls Kona and Kimber
    DSC_6037_NEW_banner
    Post edited by mdokic at 2014-03-07 19:08:18
  • Wow, it is funny to see this, now that there are so many of us! And yes, loved Brad's 2009 comment! :)
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 511
    Lol, it always cracks me up to read one of these resurrected threads!

    Brad finally managed to drag more Kai owners here! :D
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1573
    Great to see an old thread, and laughed at the fact that it's not one that makes me want to do a face palm over something I said years ago.
  • Lol, it always cracks me up to read one of these resurrected threads!

    Brad finally managed to drag more Kai owners here! :D


    Or Brad supplied forum members with Kai Ken, in some cases! ;)

    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 511
    "If you build it, they will come"... Yep ;)
  • RikachanRikachan
    Posts: 89
    Thanks for resurrecting this thread for a new forum member. It's disappointing to see that there are politics in the US just like in Japan. Here we have a number of Kai dedicated enthusiasts too, but there is a slight faction that are certainly Nationalists and would disapprove of any Kai going to a NJ. I'll be sure to properly contribute to the community from a Japanese Kai experience with a multicultural background. (My Kai Rika-chan, like my children, are bi-lingual ) :D
  • carlikaicarlikai
    Posts: 41
    I believe I had one of the earliest Kais in this country as I chanced to rescue a dog in the early 90's that eventually turned out to be a Kai. He was one of the stocky types and may have been sent out into the world as a non favored type for breeding. It was many years before I discovered what he was and after he passed at age 16 I got a new puppy, Genji. Personality wise he couldn't be more different. But I attribute the difference of the early dog to his junkyard beginings. Genji is high strung and shy and not too affectionate. I started agility with him right away to help him bond and put his natural talents to work. He will be excellent as soon as I can be what he needs!

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