Hokkaido in the USA?
  • KissuiKissui
    Posts: 173
    I have seen one years ago. The guy told me it was the worst dog he ever owned :)

    Can anyone shed some light on the breeds situation here?
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 3427
    What?!?!?! Where is he and I'll leave a flaming bag of baby poop on his front steps! :P

    What would you like to know?
    -Rina
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • ljowen123ljowen123
    Posts: 4315
    We have a couple of members that have them - line up your questions...
    LJ - owned by Queen Jazz, a Shiba Inu, Atlanta, GA
    CSC_0144
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2634
    JMaxwell has a female hokkaido in MI. Although she hasn't been active in quite sometime.

    Otherwise you can speak to Robert (ktrebor) - he breeds Hokkaido in Poland. He has also given us great information along with pics/vids of his hokkaido in this thread
    Romi - Portia (Boxer), Ninja (Shiba), Wink (Norrbottenspets)
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 3427
    Ewa (ewaka) is our other hokka breeder in Poland.

    Jamie's Kangai is so grown up now. She's a beautiful young lady.
    -Rina
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • KissuiKissui
    Posts: 173
    The man who had the Hokkaido I met was just describing primitive behaviour. Caching food in the couches, things like this. Severe seperation anxiety and dominance with other dogs.

    The dog itself was quite small, Shiba sized. White in color with a thin coat , may have been out of coat at the time. temperment wide it seemed like every Jindo I have ever met, very shy, nervous.

    What is the preservation society in Japan? how active is the breed in Japan? Any idea to the number in North America? has anyone heard of any talk to establisha USA branch of the Japanese preservation society?
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    I have seen a Japanese web site that donated Hokkaido's to a university instructor in colorado. Growing up as a kid my grandmother had this male hokkaido named Taro and he was mean as hell. He hated other dogs, little animals, kids, and every one except my grandmother and my dad. Awsome guard dog and hunting dog but he was so aggresive with my dads Kishus that we could'nt hunt with him much.

    Taro eventually died of natural causes at age 19. He was a really cool dog and I wish I could have played with him. Secret to longevity in Nihonken is rice, miso soup and dried fish. My grandmother fed Taro dried fish, miso soup, left over rice, and a little bit of dog food every day of his life.Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 4532
    There is a Hokkaido owner in Virginia. I have seen her at my local park, but have not really had a chance to talk with her since our first meeting (she had no idea what kind of dog it was, just knew it was a Japanese breed). It took me about 5 minutes after I left the park to figure out what kind of dog it was. Next time I see her, I will try and speak with her again.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • ktreborktrebor
    Posts: 200
    Yes Hokkaido is a primitive breed, strongly driven by instincts. This breed has very strong predatory instinct, for sure it will be aggresive towards all strange animals - but for all household animals should be gently - we are living with cats or shoudl I say with cat bacouse Spike has passed away a few month ago due to the kidney failure - and they are treated as a part of the pack. I must admit that our Hokkaido are trying to hunt for most animals which they see, the bigger is prey the more fierce hokkaido gets.

    Yes they have very strong guarding instinct and they could be dog aggresive - but I think that suits more males - JaJa our female hokkaido is gently towards other dogs. Kiba is aggresive towards males, and mostly when they are bigger than him. He loves to play with dogs which he has know from his puppyhood.

    I think that in case of dog to dog aggresion it is matter of early socialization.

    Regarding attitiude toward peaople. We are living in so called "open house" we have many friends, there is always someone coming or going. All our dogs were socialized from they puppyhood, and now they are love people - they are trying to get their attention - bringing toys, and begging for food. Situation is changing when they are running free in the garden - almost all person on the other side of fence is aproached with caution, they start barking and howling.

    Regarding hiding food in home. Hmm I never see this behaviur in home, but Kiba is sometimes hiding bones in garden.

    Oh - and one thing Hokkaido inu is a very brave dog, he is strong, fast and he "know that". It is very self confident dog, strong willed, but comparing to shiba (we have one) is more submissive toward his owner.
    Post edited by ktrebor at 2009-03-10 10:01:37
  • KissuiKissui
    Posts: 173
    I am surprised as a primitive breed the Hokkaido would show guarding instincts. That is not typical for primitive breeds where their own survival is priority number 1.

    They sound fantastic actually. I love all primitive breeds, in fact I can't get enough of them. Are Hokkaido typicaly the size of Shiba's? I always thought they where larger than that but the one I did see was an adult and she was Shiba sized.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • ktreborktrebor
    Posts: 200
    Hmm, how explain that - hokkaido could be treated as a primitive breed regarding they gene pool and ancestry. They gene pool is very similar to that from Okinawa dogs, which are somtimes compared to Jomon era dogs. It is supposed that first wave of Japan colonization comes through southern islands, several thousands years ago, people from Jomon culture have their own dog breed -small / medium sized with curled tail generally simillar to shiba. Then second wave of colonization come to Japan, people from new culture were more technicaly advanced and started to push back older tribes from good hunting grounds, adn from good crop fields.

    People from Jomon culture survived in remote regions of Japan, on separated southern islands or in frozen northern island of Hokkaido. Many anthropologist suggest that we could say that there is connection between Ainu people and ancient Jomon culture.

    But during this time for almost thousands of years Hokkaido inu were extensivelly breeded for two main purposes - to hunt big game - mainly bears, and to guard remote homes of matagis (hunters) - hokkaido likes to observe surrounding from higher terrain (in one from my discussion topic you could find some pictures of Kiba doing that), hokkaido have several sounds which help the to show their prey during hunt - several types of howls, long and short barks - they are wery goood in telling what they see :)

    Even now in Japan there are organised so called bear test - in which dogs are evaluated - how brave and bold they are. Shy dogs are removed from breeding.

    Hokkaido inu should be bigger than shiba, they are more strongly build with broader chest. Our female hokkaido inu is almost the sime size as Amandil (our male shiba inu) - but several judges on FCI shows are suggesting that Amandil is rather big and it is fault regarding shiba inu standard.
    Post edited by ktrebor at 2009-03-10 13:35:28
  • KissuiKissui
    Posts: 173
    ktrebor,
    Thanks for that explination. That makes sense as they where are used as all around hunting/farm dogs. All Nihon Ken should be bold and brave. That is one of the things I value about them.

    Speaking of Jomon what do you think of the Jimon-Shiba? I personaly find them facinating. I would not mind finding some when I go to Japan.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • ktreborktrebor
    Posts: 200
    :) Quite funny looking dogs, I have read about them in Michiko Chiba book about japanese dogs - sadly I dont have more info about them - I think that restoration of this type of shiba is a great idea, but jomon shiba isn't so good looking as a "standard" shiba - so It will not help to their popularity :(
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • KissuiKissui
    Posts: 173
    Well, good looking is in the eye of the beholder I guess. The behaviour of the standard Shiba I find very unattractive but that may be just me.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • ktreborktrebor
    Posts: 200
    Yeap, in my eyes my dogs are lost 8 World Wonder :) And what if the Jomon shiba will have also all behaviour faults of standard shiba ? :)
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • KissuiKissui
    Posts: 173
    From what I hear the Jomon is a calmer and more serious dog than the Shiba inu. Then again I have never met one. I do like the idea of a hard core hunter who is calm and tractable in the house. The thing I don't like about Shiba Inu is their constant attempts to be alpha over their owners. That is a trait I don't like.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • ljowen123ljowen123
    Posts: 4315
    Not all shibas are like that ...granted I have no experience with the Jomon.
    LJ - owned by Queen Jazz, a Shiba Inu, Atlanta, GA
    CSC_0144
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • NekopanNekopan
    Posts: 869
    Shibas don't attempt to be alpha over their owners. They are just really smart dogs that require appropriate activities to keep their minds busy.

    The whole "alpha" thing is a myth anyway. Dogs aren't driven by their desire to dominate.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • KFontaine04KFontaine04
    Posts: 4021
    My shibas never show any trait that could even be construed as "alpha" over me. We all coexist peacefully.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1671
    Kissui writes: "temperment wide it seemed like every Jindo I have ever met, very shy, nervous."


    ---Having had several Jindos in my care and evaluated quite a few in shelters. They are all different just like people. Their behavior in most cases really depends on how they are handled and socialized as puppies. Many Jindos are left on a chain in the back yard with little attention or training or even acclimation to other dogs after 5 or 6 weeks of age. By default, not of their own doing, they can then become overly reserved, shy or sometimes aggressive toward other animals who may cross into their boundary area.

    Like the Hokkia the majority of Jindos have a definite sense of territory, strong prey drive and a pretty tight bond with their owners when handled early and properly. I have seen a few live with other animals such as cats and chickens and yes, children harmoniously. It is the other animals outside the pack that a Jindo may react to. They have a definite sense of where things belong too and who belongs in them and size up situations accordingly, but usually are not as dramatic as say a Shiba.

    So that being said, I reiterate what others have stated, good training and early socialization of any of the "Spitzy" breed dogs is essential to make the most of their attributes, particularly the more primitive ones within the Nihon Ken group, to which I categorize the Jindo into as well.

    PS: Most dogs will try to take a leadership role if the owner does not. However, I would discard the myth of dogs wanting to be "alpha" over humans. Human behavior and signals of communication are very different. Training requires learning what drives each animal and guiding activities that are benevolently appropriate (benevolent leadership) to bring about behaviors that make a dog awesome to live with. Each breed has its merits so you have to work with what you have in each individual personality.

    Here is a link that has some elements to consider: http://www.bingodogtraining.com/how_to_become_the_leader_your_do.htm

    Snf
    Post edited by StaticNfuzz at 2009-03-11 13:12:11
  • KissuiKissui
    Posts: 173
    I have to say I have only seen a dozen or so Jindo's in my life. Most of them where purchased as puppies and where very well taken care of, not rescues or kennel dogs. They all had weak nerves. Difficult dogs to handle. I really like the breed in theory.

    The Hokkaido that I met was very much the same way, a shy, skiddish and weak nerved dog. Now am I saying they all are this way? Absolutley not, I have only met one.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1671
    Weak nerves, interesting. Ok, so really what characteristics are you looking for in a dog?

    Snf
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • KissuiKissui
    Posts: 173
    I look for stability and confidence. They should be bold in the face of new things and situations.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    Note: Hokkaido's are the only Japanese breed group with the purple blotch tongue simillar to Chow.

    Its like any working/hunting breed, there are agressive traits and submissive traits. I have never met a shy Hokkaido but like any breed there are always dogs that have shy traits. Look at Hokkaido area, its mostly rural. These dogs are big game dogs and thus are more agressive due to their nature. When you continually breed dogs for big game hunting you are going to get naturally high prey, high drive dogs with the exception of few dogs that are the opposite.Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • KissuiKissui
    Posts: 173
    I understand high prey drive. That makes sense that would be breed typical. I would say all Nihon Ken (including Akita Inu) are prey driven. That's fine. Weak nerves are another issue, it's just something I won't tolerate.

    I want it to be known that I am not saying Hokkaido's have weak nerves, just the one I saw did.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 3427
    I'm curious at your choice of words. It's not something you'll tolerate? Makes me think you'll get rid of a dog at the first sign of trouble.
    -Rina
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12210
    Kai Ken can have purple blotch tongues as well.

    ----

    I think the term "weak nerves" is a little hard to quantify. Maybe you mean confidence? Not putting words in your mouth or anything... Even confidence is hard to quantify.

    I have noticed something with our dogs, it has become very hard for me to define "confidence" or "fearfulness" unless the dog's temperament is completely overwhelmed with one or the other.

    With Nihonken I believe they should have balance above everything else. They should show some hesitence/flight while at the same time showing confidence, courage, and loyalty. All of these qualities is what make them good hunters and companions. If they had too much of one quality they would not make for a good hunter.

    I can give a few example, and I will try to keep this brief...

    Ahi: She epitomizes fearlessness. I have seen her charge packs of roaming dogs with no hesitation. She also basically wanted to kill Luytiy at first and he out weighs her by almost 100lb. She will defend the yard from roaming dogs or people, but then be completely welcoming to a stranger that we introduce - maybe even overly welcoming. Then, at the same time, if I roll a wheel chair close to her she will react by jumping back and then slowly approach it until she is comfortable - lasts about 30 seconds. That is because we had never socialized her with a wheelchair before. To me, she has the perfect Nihonken temperament - slightly guarded, courageous, logical hesitance, and confidence - but VERY reactive.

    Kona: Kona is very wary of new people. He will take over a minute to warm up to a new person and if that new person tries to initiate contact first Kona will take even longer to warm up to them. Once comfortable with them he is fine, and will even "ask" for some love. So, Kona is obviously a bit more hesitant than Ahi, but at the same time Kona will back down to no threat - dog or human. He will charge, bark, and growl if a dog or person makes a threatening gesture at his "pack". If a dog approaches him in a respectful manner Kona is fine, no aggression - just cool and calm. So in Kona's case one could say he has "weak nerves" due to his hesitation, but then the case could be made that he is more courage than Ahi since he is naturally hesitant but will stand up to a person or dog if needed. When Luytiy came into the home, Kona just accepted him - no issues... while Ahi FREAKED - the case could be made here that Kona is more confident than Ahi.

    Fuji: She is freakishly confident, almost arrogant. She just walks into any situation, head held high, tail up, and announces herself. She will give a passing bark at something she finds strange or if a dog or stranger approaches the fence. Now if a strange dog entered our yard Fuji would be one of the last to engage the dog - Ahi, Kona, and Luytiy would be there before any of our Akita. One may view this as hesitation - or maybe benevolence... but benevolence can even be misconstrued as weak nerves or lack of confidence too (like when Hilo is laying there and Kahuna starts humping him - Hilo doesn't care... I get a lot of "he is dominating Hilo" notes on YouTube due to that - but is he?).

    So maybe confidence or "weak nerves" is subjective and can change based on the subject and situation and therefore it's hard to paint a whole breed as confident or not confident.

    ----
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • KissuiKissui
    Posts: 173
    When I see a dog that is walked on a leash and he sticks behind the owners back leg and practicly runs into walls to come within three feet of anyone else passing on the street I see that as a weak nerved dog. A dog who's tail is carried between the legs and who pees when eye contact is made with another person or dog is weak nerved. A dog who practicly jumps out of their skin when a frying pan falls on the floor could also have weak nerves.

    Weak nerves aren't an annoyance. they are dangerous. That is the kind of animal that will bite a child in the face.
    No, I won't have that. I mean there is a lot you can do in order to help build confidence through socialization, training and so forth but a dog with a weak nervous system that has zero stress resistence is like having aticking timebomb in your home.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • SarakoSarako
    Posts: 101
    I have 3 Hokkaido dogs, from 3 different lineage.

    Hokkaido is a primitive dog, but has been seleted since along time by Ainu people.

    I don't think Hokkaido is aggressive.It's a dominant breed, like other japanese dogs. I own Akita inu too, and I found Hokkaido easier than Akita with other dogs.

    My female accepts all dogs. My males accept some others dogs, male or female, but don't like other dominant dogs.

    Concerning hunting instincts, Hokkaido is really a hunter from ethe head to te back ! And more than I can see on other japanese breeds.

    (sorry for my english...^__^)
    Sophie - Kyuden Kitsune Kennel - www.hokkaido-ken.fr - www.hokkaido-pedigree.com
    image
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • KissuiKissui
    Posts: 173
    Thank you for your comments Sarako. Where are you located?
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • SarakoSarako
    Posts: 101
    I'm french, I live near Nantes (ouest of France)
    Sophie - Kyuden Kitsune Kennel - www.hokkaido-ken.fr - www.hokkaido-pedigree.com
    image
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • jmaxwelljmaxwell
    Posts: 295
    I second what Sophie says about Hokkas not necessarily being aggressive, but they do not like certain dominant dogs. Kangai gets into it every now and then with my Shiba being Keira tries to push her buttons and Kangais not one for running away and backing down. Kangai loves all male and female dogs and has not once tried to fight another dog. She however loves chasing my cats, and I have 3! She is a bit skiddish sometimes around new things or places, but she gets past it pretty quickly. They are definitely dogs that need to be owned by strong minded owners. They will give you a run for your money but they are worth the chase I think :) Also Kangai has never been agressive to any human being or child, expect for the fact she likes to jump on anyone new that comes in the door, but she doesnt know any better and we are trying to correct that. She has a mind of her own thats for sure =-)
    Post edited by jmaxwell at 2009-03-17 20:51:21
  • KissuiKissui
    Posts: 173
    Thanks Jaime,
    How are Hokkaido pups in comparison to Shiiba when it comes to chewing?
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 3427
    Hey Jamie! We need more Kangai spam ;)
    -Rina
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • ktreborktrebor
    Posts: 200
    Hi Jamie, great to hear from you! :) Reagrding chewing, it depends. Kiba likes to grab item and run with it, JaJa together with Amandil is our litlle destroyer. They like to chew, and they have destroyed several my shoes, socks and books. She likes to grab items from table. When she want to go for walk, she grabs something and starts to run around me
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • KissuiKissui
    Posts: 173
    My question as to destroying socks, books etc. are they doing this even though they are crate trained? I ask because that is one of the things I love about Akita inu and crate training. No chew marks on anything.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • ktreborktrebor
    Posts: 200
    To be honest our dog are not crate trained - I know that I should do that, to prevent their destructible tendencies. They are left alone to run freeily around the house when we are in work.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • This post comes up as the top search result in Google for Hokkaido breeders in California for some reason.

    So I just want to say, we have decided to add Hokkaido to our kennel and begin breeding next year! Full announcement is here: http://www.kaijukennels.com/hokkaido-ken-kaiju-kennels/
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3422
    There's also that fake Hokkaido breeder who is selling Shibas as Hokkaido in Cali. FYI.
    info@hokkaidoken.org
    www.hokkaidoken.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com

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