Akita Heat vs early age spay-neuter
  • Ok so I was reading this article http://www.chai-online.org/en/companion/overpopulation_sn_early.htm and for the most part it made a lot of sense. Then I started reading the post by Brada1978 about Lani and how she filled out after she went into heat and started to wonder....

    .....since I do not plan on breeding my akita --should I look into early spay-neuter? Would doing this prevent a similar maturing from happening?
    IF this could be an issue about how long should i wait(six months or so)?www.akita-inu.com
    www.Japanese-Akitas.com
    pedigrees.akita-inu.com
  • NekopanNekopan
    Posts: 869
    I actually recommend looking into early-age spay/neuter if you have a vet that is comfortable with it. There are many benefits to doing it before the first heat cycle and at a young age (faster recovery, less instance of cancers, etc). Spaying should not prevent your pup from maturing, but it may prolong her maturation. I've heard a lot of studies that say the early-age s/n animals actually grow taller than those s/n at later ages, but the difference is so slight that you probably won't even notice.
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • I personally do not agree with early spay/neuter. My first dog (male) did not get his neuter until he was five years old. I only had it done because a new neighbor moved in and his dogs began marking everywhere, suddenly my dog started marking my furniture; otherwise, I would never have had it done. Prior to his surgery he had a favorite stuffed animal that he would mount and subsequently, after the surgery, he continued to have a healthy libido with his "alternative" lovers. (not sure how to put that correctly)

    I am a vendor in our local Farmer's Market and people utilize the market as a place to show-off their dogs as well as for socialization. Most male dogs at the market are neutered and of those males it is not too hard to notice the ones that were neutered too young. I am not sure how to put this without sounded odd, but those males neutered too early have an underdeveloped penis. Seriously, it is like looking at a puppy with their little "button" of a penis on an adult dog. I cannot help but notice because they do not look natural. This is only an observation of mine.

    I believe that I have noticed some dogs acting much younger than they should and I have thought from time to time that this is what is referred to as being locked into the "puppy mindset". It seems to me without proper hormones the mind cannot develop into the natural adult disposition. (personal opinion; so if you disagree just say what you believe rather than twisting my words ---- you know who you are)

    I recently read where a male Shiba was neutered then suddenly became over-protective and barking at anything that came within their personal boundaries. If true, I would surmise this is due to the lack of "Opportunity"; meaning that a male dog is the optimal opportunist for a sexual encounter. They are at ease with those entering their spaces for any chance that there might be that "opportunity" for procreation. Once neutered, any chance for mating is gone and so why not keep everyone out and become overprotective of that environment. (again, personal observations and opinion).

    As for the bitches, I have nothing to go on other than the dog I grew up with as a child. She was a GSD mix and was never spayed. She did not live a long life (13 years), but I attribute that to my parents and their "table scrap" habits. She would go into heat twice a year and was never "caught", so she never had puppies. Her first heat was a bit messy in that she was not good at keeping herself clean. After that first heat she was very good at not leaving "drippings" everywhere. She was a wonderful happy girl.

    My plans for Rudi are to keep him intact. I also plan on bringing a female Shiba into our lives after a few years; I do not plan on having any puppies until after 2012. It will be a bit of a challenge during a heat but since I am not your average individual I do not see a problem, or an accident. (if anyone differs on this part...please remember my stance on opinions)

    I can only imagine that in the ancient world, when young men were procured as eunuchs, there were also attributes of a physiological kind as well as psychological. Most of these attributes were possibly lesser or greater depending on the age of the castrated.

    I am not opposed to neutering and spaying. I just believe that there is a significant difference if a person would just wait until the animal is physically mature. Personally I think that the practice of vasectomy should be utilized versus castration. As for bitches, I am not sure if they are just getting their "tubes tied", or if they are actually given a complete hysterectomy; as I have never looked into this surgery at all. Hormones are essential in living as we all were meant to live, so why not remove the baby-making part of the equation without removing the Nature of the Beast. I am sure some women wished their husbands would get the snip versus their own need for HRT (hormone replacement therapy) after a hysterectomy.

    OK, again, these are just my opinions. Please do not put words into my post, and please just inject your own thoughts; it is only my stance which has no political or sociological impact. If you disagree... just do so in your head or tell us your own thoughts and beliefs; please do not discredit mine.

    Sincerely,

    Ron and Rudi (both of us have our legs crossed at this very moment) LOL
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12092
    There are 2 conflicting views on early s/n, imo...

    1) When you spay a female her testosterone levels will increase, so you will have less of a testosterone spike if you spay her later. Testosterone will affect growth [as Kyla pointed out] this can mean she will grow a bit faster and taller if you spay her early. Also, testosterone fuels aggression/reactiveness/drive, so if your pup shows any signs of that it may be safer to wait [this is a big deal with our CO female - not so much our Akita]. Jen and I honestly think early spay has contributed to Ahi's [Shikoku] height [she is rather tall] and her reactiveness/drive, but that is just our personal opinion.

    2) New studies show that "empty" heat cycles [a heat that doesn't end in pregnancy] is very hard on a females system. So, based on that, you may want to go for it early.

    You should be cognitive as to how slow Akita mature when compared to other breeds too.

    If you wait to spay the risks/issues are:
    1 - You have to deal with the mess [which is minimal w/ an Akita, they are very clean, but the first heat is always messier than the following].
    2 - Empty heats are hard on a dog's system.
    3 - When a female goes into heat they are more sensitive to fear/change.
    4 - Obviously, you want to make sure they are not impregnated.

    The issues with spaying early are:
    1 - Faster growth, which can lead to skeletal issues and excess height [which is probably, realistically, very little].
    2 - Spike in testosterone which can make it even harder to socialize a high-drive/reactive/aggressive puppy.

    So, imo, it is a case-by-case thing. You should wait and see your pup's temperament and then decide. For our Akita females [the ones we want to spay] we will probably wait for the 2nd heat before we spay them.

    *The very earliest I would spay an Akita is 6 months old.

    ----
    image
    ------------------ YamabushiKennel.org | BradAnderson.org ------------------
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • sujewelsujewel
    Posts: 2553
    My female Akita, Mika was spayed early (6 months old) and I personally attribute her dog reactiveness/aggression/drive to the early spay. I can also say that Mika is a very tall girl, so the increase in growth and height could definitely have some merit. Of course, I am always pro spay/neuter, but if I had to do it all over again, I would wait at least 1 year after birth....perhaps slightly older.
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • I have had the pleasure of working with dogs with a long time (17+ years in a shelter setting, plus my own dogs).

    In addition to the health benefits of spaying/neutering (eliminated risk of common cancers, prostate, uterine, ovarian, and breast) in my own experience there is a significant decrease in aggression and territorial behavior, as well as no messy heat for females, and less escape freak out for males when their is a female in heat.

    IMO it is the responsible thing to spay or neuter any dog that isn't being bred at 6 months.
    Fuzzy Gang Signature
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • That said I have not worked with akita in shelters so Brad's experience with akita heat is super interesting to me...
    Fuzzy Gang Signature
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • KaddyKaddy
    Posts: 1237
    You know... I wasn't going to respond because I know it could make me the 'enemy' ... but...

    Posting on a public forum and telling people not to respond is ridiculous. The people on these forums are a wealth of knowledge and asking them to not give input... doesn't make sense.

    The only reason to become a member of an online community like this is to share ideas, and if you can't discuss your differences in opinion in a civil manner - what's the point??
    Post edited by Kaddy at 2009-02-13 18:07:57
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3183
    As this is a forum open for all to read and reference, the information that's posted here should be as accurate as possible, even if they are opinions. I'm sure I have misposted before (sorry), but I do believe everyone tries really hard to keep it accurate and user friendly. I just wanted to point a few things out so someone reading from this thread doesn't leave with the wrong information. I spoke with some of my Veterinarian collegues and they support what Brad has stated that there may be an increase in testosterone post OVH, however temporary (OVH: ovarian hysterectomy, so yes, that means that all the organs contributing to female reproduction are removed). I do not know of any vet in the 3 states I have worked with who would perform a hysterectomy only and also not remove the ovaries or just "tie the tubes."

    Among dog fanciers there has long been, as far as I know, the idea that delaying a spay until after a first heat can be beneficial for an immature bitches mental maturity and may help with physical maturation as well. Allowing the bitch to experience one heat cycle before a spay is, as was said above, on a case by case basis. I tend to believe it was Beebe's dam's temperment that contributed to Beebe's reactiveness/aggression more than spaying her early at 5 months. I do not feel it was a lack of socialization in any way. The dam's temperment greatly influences the pups and I was not wise to that at the time.

    As Brad said, the reproductive organs in bitches were meant to be used or they can and do pose a health risk. If you are not using the bitch for breeding, there is no proven benefit of keeping her intact, and there are many proven reasons favoring OVH. This is why all the organs are removed. Same goes for male dogs. Unless they are being used to breed/show/work I don't see a need to delay neutering beyond 1-2 years. Chemical castration, testicle implants, canine vasectomy: should be evaluated case by case but the main question is it for the dog's benefit or the owner's ego? The hormones are still present in vasectomy and chemical neutering so I tend to believe the owners are more reluctant than the dog is to part with the testicles. Also the dog will still want to mark and roam and is capable of tying up. As a side note, the only people who have expressed serious interest to me in these options were immature men.
    Post edited by lindsayt at 2009-02-13 07:35:08
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 3413
    I think the opinion on when to spay/neuter and whether to spay/neuter at all depends on personal experience.

    I find rabbits to be horrible family members when not spayed/neutered so mine are. Bad experience with both male and female cats who weren't spayed/neutered so mine are. I haven't had a negative experience with an unfixed dog so my personal opinion slightly differs. In all circumstances I do not believe in early spaying/neutering. I do prefer to wait till they are done growing.
    -Rina
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • I have been bitten 3 times in my lifetime. All three times by male dogs. 2 of those times un-neutered males, the 3rd a male who had been neutered 2 days prior.

    Just an observation, and purely anecdotal. But my experience nonetheless.
    Fuzzy Gang Signature
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • Like Jessica, a mass of my dog experience is in shelter/rescue. this month our shelter is having a low cost spay/neuter clinic and the vets on staff approve speuters for all dogs and cats over 8 weeks old. They do this for one reason only: pet over population is a SERIOUS epidemic in the US (and I suspect the world) and most pet owners take zero responsibility.

    However, I think if you can commit to your animal - fully commit - and wait until maturation in growth has occurred before you spay/neuter then more power to you. We have to host low spay/neuter clinics because MOST pet owners are not responsible and are not accountable when they contribute to the epidemic.
    If you choose to wait until your Akita is best suitable for her spay - be utterly responsible!!

    For those who haven't speutered (or know someone who hasn't) and needs/wants to - 2/24/09 is spay day usa!
    http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/pet_overpopulation_and_ownership_statistics/spay_day_usa/
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    p.s. my experience with intact males has been very similar, Jess. Brad's observations between members of his pack is extremely interesting to me, too, for that reason.
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    Post edited by tsukitsune at 2009-02-13 10:52:07
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3183
    The only dogs I have been bitten by at work were intact male dogs and various cats, I think it had more to do with them being frightened and in pain. That may not be quite the same scenario with the shelter dogs, who are undersocialized and frightened as part of the reason for biting? At home I have been bitten by my own dogs (spayed and neutered). Just yesterday Ike really pitched a major fit when I was examining and brushing his teeth and chomped my thumb HARD. I was ready to drive him to the vet for the neuter right there but he gave me some kisses right away. He can really be a stubborn guy about certain issues I'm learning.
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 3413
    Jen's comment made me realize I forgot to add that my opinions are for my own animals only. Obviously, not everyone bothers to be as careful so I rather have animals be spayed/neutered earlier than I would like rather than have an overpopulation of animals without homes.
    -Rina
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    Posts: 1175
    No real comments about early versus late. Although I agree that if you are not going to breed your animal, you should spay/neuter it.

    But it is interesting Brad's comments about growing taller with testosterone (in females spayed earlier). I found that interesting because in horses, testosterone causes the grown plates to close earlier and thus the animal is shorter if neutered earlier than later. So the opposite of what Brad is saying with dogs (and the female spike in testosterone). But maybe because male/female dogs are more sexually dimorphic (ie, different heights) than some other species.
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 1977
    I've been reading up on this conversation with keen interest. When I got Ichi neutered early (20 weeks old) I only read the benefits, I didn't read anything about how it could cause elevated testosterone levels post-op. Now I can see why Ichi exploded from 10-14" and 12 to 19lbs in about 6 weeks post op.

    Jesse
    Jesse Pelayo

    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12092
    Lindsay made a good point that I failed to mention in my post: the increase in testosterone in a female post spay is *temporary*. I have heard it lasts around 3 months.

    The only reason why that should matter to someone considering spaying their female early is temperament. If the pup is from a breed that has a tendency toward dog reactiveness, aggression, or high-drive, then it may be easier to socialize a female pup w/o the added testosterone. Since that testosterone spike lasts [so I have heard] 3 months, if you spay a female at 6 months [especially an Akita] you will have that increased testosterone through some of the most important socialization periods.

    Having written that, I should note that we spayed Ahi at 4 months [due to health issues] and continued socializing her. While it was not super easy to socialize Ahi [she is high-drive and very reactive], she did end up being one of the most socialized and socially balanced dogs we have.

    ----

    As for the comments about experience in the rescue system with dogs that have, or have not, been s/n...

    I personally believe that all rescued dogs should be s/n. The history of those dogs are usually unknown and so fixing them can help to minimize any potential [behavioral] issues that may be fueled by keeping them intact. That obviously helps to reduce the rescue system cycle as well.

    To that point tho... I think it is also important that you not draw a connection between aggression/behavioral issues found in intact RESCUE dogs vs. fixed RESCUE dogs unless you 100% know their history and background. It seems unfair [and scientifically incorrect] to make judgements on the reduction of aggression in s/n dogs when any of those aggression issues could be due to ghosts of their past and not from simply being intact.

    I'm not calling anyone out or saying anyone is incorrect, and I am pretty sure someone could point me to a study that shows a reduction in behavioral issues in fixed dogs vs. intact dogs. I just find it hard to believe that 1000s of years of intact working dogs, in situations where the intact dogs had to work with other intact dogs, does [at least] partly suggest that an intact dog can coexist without any aggression/behavioral issues with other dogs and people.

    Something Jen and I have noticed, that seems contradictory, is when we take one of our intact males to an area where there will be fixed males the fixed males are usually the dogs that show aggression toward our intact males.

    ----

    I think s/n(ing) ones pets is really the responsible thing for a dog owner to do. If the owners don't intend to breed and/or show their dog, there is really no reason to have them intact. It really makes life a lot easier for the pet owner to have them s/n... so that's a no brainer, imo.

    Also, it should be pointed out that the questions posted in the original post was not whether or not to s/n, it was WHEN to s/n an AKITA female.

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    image
    ------------------ YamabushiKennel.org | BradAnderson.org ------------------
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2009-02-13 17:57:49
  • Brad you make some very interesting points. And as I mentioned above I have little to no experience with Akita, and give the floor to you completely.

    Your observation about intact males in social situations is something I have read before. And how it was explained is being that the neutered males were impotent they were perceived as lower in the social hierarchy. I will be stating the obvious here, that there are so many contributing factors to consider in regards to the temperament of a dog and s/n is just one contributor.

    I think it is safe to say we have given *Jack Burton* a lot to process here. Hope that amongst all of this, you also found some answers to what you were looking for.
    Fuzzy Gang Signature
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • Sorry if my post was slightly off-topic...
    my point was that a lot of info online about early spay/neuter (8wks - 6months) strives to reach pet owners before their pet even goes into heat, to prevent unwanted litters before they can even happen in most cases. Most vets will suggest spay and neuter at 6 months regardless of breed or background - I assume for the same reasons.

    Taking that in stride, if you feel it is in your akita's best interest to wait until fur maturation, make sure you can control her surroundings to prevent unwanted pups!
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    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • Wow there is a lot of info to digest here but that's exactly why I posted that topic. From what I have read here sounds like 6 months is a good time frame +/- based on the puppies health, socialization etc. Looking at the photos of Lani, I became concerned that an early spay/neuter may effect the dog in a way that would bother me.

    Thank you all your replies -I found the reading to be very informative.www.akita-inu.com
    www.Japanese-Akitas.com
    pedigrees.akita-inu.com
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • NekopanNekopan
    Posts: 869
    Actually, Jen, from the information I've read the only reason s/n isn't done before 6 months traditionally is that there used to be a risk with anaesthesia in younger animals. Now that there are many, many less complications, there is no reason not to have it done before. Most vets will suggest to do it at 6 months because that is the time they were taught to perform it. As I said before, go with the age your vet is comfortable with.

    While I completely agree with what Brad has said about it being a case-by-case basis, I am of the opinion that if you are going to spay/neuter, it's best to do it early rather than after the first heat cycle. "Empty heats" are hard on a female, as has been pointed out. The risk of mammary cancer also increases a significant amount with each heat, and all the other benefits that you've probably read about early age (which means 8-16 weeks) spay/neuter.

    If you want the full benefit of hormones, then IMO unless you wait until the animal is ~24 months old then you are not getting much out of it.

    I'm pretty sure I'm the only early-age spay/neuter advocate on these boards. :) If any of you are interested in why I have the opinion I do, I point you to the following articles:

    http://cfhs.ca/athome/early_age_spay_neuter/
    http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

    Keep in mind a lot of the cited sources in the second one are from the 70s... when early-age spay/neuter was not practiced very often.
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • NekopanNekopan
    Posts: 869
    Here's another link about early age spay/neuter... this particular link comes from a cat website, but it's easily applicable to dogs. http://www.messybeast.com/earlyneuter2.htm


    The Journal of American Veterinary Medical Association in 1997 studied 775 cats and 1213 dogs. Significant findings comparing neutering surgery on older and younger animals included:

    * decreased surgical time for younger animals
    * increased number of minor complications in older animals
    * infectious diseases were comparable
    * no difference in hypothermia (surgical time shorter for younger patients)
    * after 3 years, there was an increased incidence of urinary problems in animals neutered after 24 weeks of age (note: results on this differ in other studies)

    Information from various early neuter studies concluded:

    * growth is not stunted by early neutering, usually the opposite is true
    * urinary function was not affected; urethral pressure profiles showed no statistical difference; the diameter of the urethra in early vs. traditional sterilisations was the same.
    * secondary sex characteristics were affected (infantile genitalia in males and females), but did not cause health issues.
    * the immune system was not affected
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12092
    I thought it would be interesting to note that since Lani's spay we have noticed an increase in her anxiety and aggression. Before her spay she would guard the office from time to time, not letting some dogs into "her" office; but since her spay it has increased in frequency and she has now started to charge the gate when Maui or Masha is on the other side.

    For clarity, let me point out that Lani is not aggressive, 95% she does perfectly with the other dogs. She seems to have these issues in a smaller space and seems to have rather large emotional swings that cause her to act more inappropriate. So, recourse guarding [which is what she is doing here] is =taken a bit further than just a "look" and growl.

    Now, I have no way to prove this, but I think this change in her is probably linked to the increase in testosterone that females experiences post spay. It should clear up in the next few months if it is related to a spike in testosterone.

    ----
    image
    ------------------ YamabushiKennel.org | BradAnderson.org ------------------
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3183
    It must be like an instant onset menopause for them, you can't blame them for feeling cranky. Hopefully, as I have been hearing and reading, the effects are temporary, but I am not sure just how temporary.

    Brad-do you think that's enough of an effect to permanently alter the temperment?

    Thanks for the update. She is in capable hands.
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • dlrobertsdlroberts
    Posts: 6552
    That's interesting. Poor Lani. I hope her hormones settle back down quickly. She's one of my favorites. :-)
    dlrobertsdlroberts
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    "My opinion may have changed, but not the fact that I'm right"
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • LeonbergerLeonberger
    Posts: 3761
    It is interesting, and it makes sense. It has to be a huge jolt for her.
    I hope she feels better quickly.
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • KissuiKissui
    Posts: 173
    I have to say that I don't believe in neutering at all, vasectomy is the way to go.

    I also do not believe in the early spay. I have seen too many dogs with healthy litter mates just fall apart health and developmentaly from this.
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 3413
    IMO if you're going to go with a vasectomy you might as well keep them intact. I know way too many failed vasectomies where it healed itself.
    -Rina
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1653
    It might be wise to review some research. http://www.chai-online.org/en/companion/overpopulation_sn_early.htm
    The references cited at the end of the above article allow more in depth investigations to ease minds of those who are worried. JAMVA is another area to search to look at the topic on a more granular level and ascertain the validity of the arguments and opinions.

    As this tread points out, most of human population assigns their own human deeply held beliefs in terms of rights of reproduction for their pets. Sadly that has lead to euthanasia of 2.7 million animals per year in the U.S. alone.

    Refs:

    http://www.americanhumane.org/about-us/newsroom/fact-sheets/animal-shelter-euthanasia.html
    Post edited by StaticNfuzz at 2009-03-13 22:58:02
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3183
    Kissui, aside from the very few exceptions which would contraindicate surgical or chemical OVH and orchiectomy for health and safety reasons (too sick for surgery, too young, too immature, a working large breed that is not done growing, or an excellent specimen of the breed that is to be used to improve the breeds genepool), doesn't spay/neuter at a certain age seem to be the easiest/safest choice for most pet owners (not breeders or folks that work their dogs) in safely managing unwanted behavior/litters?
    Post edited by Unknown User at 1999-11-30 00:00:00
  • T_DogT_Dog
    Posts: 145
    I have read this whole thread and it seems to concentrate on females. Since the original post did mention neuter.
    I would like to know when is the best time to neuter?
    my male American Akita was born 4/5/13 and I am considering keeping him intact till 2 years old unless he exhibits bad behaviour.

    He is 24.5 inches tall. He is 90lbs. But I have felt his "wrist" I know its not his wrist. But his first joint up from his paw, for the bump that indicates he will still get taller. Well I can't feel much of a bump.
    So will a neuter help him get to 26"? Or Has he stopped growing?

    Should I keep him intact till his chest widens?
    My brother said Doberman forums recommended that he keeps his Doberman intact till at least two years old to help his chest widen.

    I have noticed in cats being intact makes them develope bigger heads.
    Will being intact effect his head?

    I do know about the negative effects such as marking and aggression. So far he has no issues with aggression. He marks trees. But not furniture or people or other dogs. He has healthy play with my neutered JA. They take turns on submissive positions. So i am mainly concerned about his growth and adult maturity.
  • ShikokuShikoku
    Posts: 244
    In my exp. getting a dog altered does not correct behaviors. It does "dull" hormonal related behaviors- so far the only one I know of is wandering in males. Marking and aggression still happens it's a trait that is picked up from other animals and fight or flight passed down from parents.

    Dogs will still mount other dogs etc. With proper training you should be able to make ur dog do anything. Including not doing what u don't want.

    As far as growth the honest answer: no one knows - some studies say yes it affects growth, other studies say it doesn't and it actually promotes it. CONCLUSION: Ask your breeder the size and rate of growth of past litters from mom and dad that'll give you the best idea.


    -------------------
    Location:MD/VA/DC. Pets: Athena- Shikoku and Hades- Shiba Inu
  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    Posts: 2346
    Both of my bitches that I had spayed due to pyometra also mellowed out significantly with regards to picking fights or rising to the challenge from other female dogs.
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    http://www.kaijukennels.com
  • There's some threads around on best ages to neuter....maybe do a search for them, too. Here's a link to a thread on the Shiba side that contains links to lots of journal articles about effects of early spay/neuter (early, btw, is before six months of age, and sometimes as young as 8 weeks!) The thread title says spaying, but it is also about neutering: http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/11439/scientific-journal-articles-about-spaying#Item_11

    I think leaving them intact til 1 year is best for growth, but after that, I'm dubious that it matter much. He's still going to grow some, you know, since he's not a year old. A bit taller. He'll fill out a bit more. But it's not like neutering him now is going to make much of a difference in his growth. If you were trying to get him bigger by neutering him (which isn't something I think is a good idea) you would have had to do an early neuter.

    I think anyone who has lived with an adult intact male (and probably female too!) will tell that you it does, indeed, stop some behaviors, esp. sex related behaviors. Put an end to my Kai Ken's constant marking. Now he's just at a normal level, rather than peeing on everything (and sometimes everyone).

    He sounds like he is a good boy and a good size. Neuter him when it is a good time for you.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • *JackBurton**JackBurton*
    Posts: 1273
    Ok so I was reading this article http://www.chai-online.org/en/companion/overpopulation_sn_early.htm and for the most part it made a lot of sense. Then I started reading the post by Brada1978 about Lani and how she filled out after she went into heat and started to wonder....



    .....since I do not plan on breeding my akita --should I look into early spay-neuter? Would doing this prevent a similar maturing from happening?

    IF this could be an issue about how long should i wait(six months or so)?


    Apparently I was full of shit in 2009. :)

    Do not plan on breeding = on my third litter buying a second JA
    If you look around I said I'd never show either. After all I was just getting a pet = involved with both japanese Akita clubs in the US.



    www.akita-inu.com
    www.Japanese-Akitas.com
    pedigrees.akita-inu.com
  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 2702
    "Apparently I was full of shit in 2009. "

    It's funny how that keeps happening to us all when you drill back a few years on the Forum... :)
    photo forumthing_zps355635f7.jpg
  • I did read that original post and go....wait, what?! Then looked at the date! :)
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • T_DogT_Dog
    Posts: 145
    Lol I too noticed that... cuz I know jack from other posts.

    In my readings of the links posted I have also realized that by neutering my JA early could have caused his bone marrow cancer. Ares was neutered at 4 months old. I came home to a neutered dog. My wife and vet made the decision. I was a bit upset. But had no idea that it would possibly cause bone marrow cancer.

    I also gathered that kenji my AA has about 3 months left to grow the 2" he needs. I am probably worrying over nothing. Like I did with his ears coming up.

    I believe it was jack in another post that told me about the bump at the first joint up from the paw. My Ja had this bump. Or growth plate that was no longer there when he finished growing. But my AA has no discernable bump. He is much thicker boned. His legs are nearly twice as thick as my JA.

    Shibamisteress indicated that after a year is good. And I havent been able to find much info yet on when the chest widens and if neutering can effect that. My Ja's chest is not wide at all I consider him very narrow chested. I am afraid its because he got neutered to soon.

    I did read in one of the threads that they widen at around the 5th year and some breeders wait 5 years before they show their dogs for that reason.

    I take that to mean 5 years intact gets the chest to widen. But at 5 years with out having sex this can cause problems too. Like testicular cancer. I still haven't decided when to do this. Its turning out to be a hard decision for me to make.

    Oh and I should have started my post with...
    Resurrection or bump or something lol


  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2053
    Not having sex does not cause ball cancer. That is just silly. If it did there would be a much higher rate of testicular cancer in intact males who are never bred. I honestly think neutering to prevent testicular cancer is stupid since it's an incredibly rare form of cancer that is almost never fatal.

    I don't know when chests widen, my Hokkaido is 10 months an still has a skinny chest. My Shiba was neutered really early by the shelter (2 1/2 - 3 months I believe) but he's got a hulk chest. Maybe because he's got severe luxating patella in his right knee, so he puts most of his weight up front so that caused more mass to be built up there? I dunno, but he's got a little head, it looks kinda funny... He's super tall though, he's got long legs.

    All the credible research I've found says that neutering as late as possible is best IF you are going to neuter. I would not ever do it to a dog under 2 1/2 years old, especially a larger breed. I wouldn't neuter in general unless it was medically necessary, but that's just me.
    image
    Post edited by Losech at 2014-02-02 00:25:45
  • TrzcinaTrzcina
    Posts: 296
    To add onto what @Losech said, given that the treatment for testicular cancer is generally neutering and the cancer rarely spreads elsewhere if caught reasonably early (not even extremely early!), I wouldn't consider the chance of future testicular cancer to be much reason to neuter early on. It can be done when it becomes an issue if necessary.

    Not Akitas or even NK, but the intact male dog I've been around the most didn't finish filling out until he was about 3 1/2 (medium-sized dog--about 45lbs). His early-neutered brother never did develop the same depth of chest, and grew to be very leggy with a much narrower head. An unrelated male of the same breed, neutered before he was done growing but not as early, developed a more masculine head type and stayed in proportion as far as legs go, but also kept the narrower chest.

    Basically, I agree with Losech as far as neutering goes. I still think I'll likely spay any bitches I have in the future (after maturity) because I did lose my childhood dog from complications from pyometra, but with males... there just isn't as much of a reason in the overwhelming majority of cases. At least, not that I've ever seen personally--I've seen more neutered dogs with weird problems than intact ones, though some of that was probably because the people I've known with intact dogs have generally been more responsible about caring for them. They made the conscious decision not to neuter, and they accepted the responsibility of making sure their dog is not causing problems. For the most part.
  • *JackBurton**JackBurton*
    Posts: 1273
    So fast forward to 2014. There is an article posted here by Nekopan back in feb2009. I use that article a lot when explaining my views to new puppy buyers.

    It a great well thought out article.

    http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
    www.akita-inu.com
    www.Japanese-Akitas.com
    pedigrees.akita-inu.com
  • mdokicmdokic
    Posts: 788
    Very interesting article ^^^^
    Michelle, with Kai girls Kona and Kimber
    DSC_6037_NEW_banner
  • I think a lot of people, including my vets, think that once the growth plates have closed, which varies, but is usually around a year depending on breed, then the dog no longer needs the growth hormones and can be spayed or neutered.

    Except for my GSD, who died of bone cancer and had also been neutered early, none of my neutered males have any health problems that could be attributed to it. Only one more, the male Shiba, was neutered under a year old (he was neutered at 5 or 6 months). He is very large, which is common with dogs neutered early, or in his case not super early, but before a year. They're likely to be larger when neutered early.

    My neutered males are healthy, and easy to live with, easier, in fact, than when they were intact, and there is no reason to not neuter a dog that will not be bred. If people choose not to and they are responsible, fine, but I found it much easier to live with the neutered males.

    My point is, I'd have to see some evidence that there is a need to wait for two years before I'd believe it, because I haven't it yet. Plenty of evidence against pediatric spay/neuter, but I don't see anything that says it is necessary to wait two years (except perhaps in a giant breed, which even an Akita is not). They don't grow much in the second year, though they might fill out some, but they are going to do that whether they are spayed/neutered or not. For a smaller dog like a Shiba or Kai I'd probably still wait til a year, but 6 months is probably fine. I would prefer to wait for a year in a large breed like an Akita, though honestly, I may still spay my girl before she is a year old if I can avoid a heat.

    I don't even really understand the obsession with size: I want my dog to be this big, or whatever. I wanted my dog to have healthy bones, and slow healthy growth, which is why I wait. And especially if they are not going to be bred, who cares about size of chest or head or whatever? I don't understand that.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • Thanks for sharing that article @JackBurton.

    The one thing I'm most interested in learning about is the one thing they did not discuss in the paper, namely the effects of neutering on a dog's behaviour. Can anyone provide any good articles or their own experiences on this? Thanks!
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2053
    The hormones that are removed when a pet is altered are not only necessary for proper growth :P

    I would've liked it it Katana were a bit bigger, I highly doubt he'll grow much taller than he is now, which is not much taller than Conker, and barely meets JKC/FCI/HKH standards, not tall enough for NIPPO (but I don't give a crap about that standard stuff).
    Maybe I should have neutered him while he was still growing.

    Conker's head bugs me, it's small and girly, it is not proportional to his body size. The appearance really isn't important but the fact that he was not allowed to mature correctly is. If I'd known what negative effects neutering a baby dog could have I never would've gotten a shelter puppy. I won't get anymore dogs that are or are required to be altered.

    Until I see some non-biased, well documented, compelling reason to alter pets, I won't do it unless it is medically necessary. They have those parts for a reason, and reproducing is not the only one. Hormones play a much bigger part in the entire body functioning properly than the spay/neuter mantra leads you to believe.
    If you want to spay/neuter your dogs that's fine, your choice, but I hope you did some research first and understand what it means to permanently remove important hormones. If to prevent puppies is the only reason, a tubal ligation or vasectomy is a much wiser choice than spay/neuter.

    Here is a Vizla study that came out recently, it mentions some behavior problems:
    http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/vizsla_javma_study.pdf

    image
    Post edited by Losech at 2014-02-02 15:49:31
  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 2702
    My neutered male "RottKailler" (Sage- neutered at 5 mos) has a big, drafting-dog-style chest and shoulders, I dont think neutering limited his growth. He was a wispy, lean teen, but he bulked up slowly over time despite being neutered.
    photo forumthing_zps355635f7.jpg

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